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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 2263

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Toadesstern
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Germany16350 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 17:32:29
September 03 2015 17:31 GMT
#45241
wow, did not expect that. But yeah.. that's just asking for another crowd funded reimbursement for her poor soul...
<Elem> >toad in charge of judging lewdness <Elem> how bad can it be <Elem> also wew, that is actually p lewd.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 03 2015 17:36 GMT
#45242
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 17:44 GMT
#45243
On September 04 2015 02:31 Slaughter wrote:
Fox is going to eat this shit up. War on Christianity x100000000000000

Just think of the coverage if it was a Muslim woman objecting based on her religion. Just let your mind wrap around that.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States43672 Posts
September 03 2015 17:46 GMT
#45244
On September 04 2015 02:44 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 02:31 Slaughter wrote:
Fox is going to eat this shit up. War on Christianity x100000000000000

Just think of the coverage if it was a Muslim woman objecting based on her religion. Just let your mind wrap around that.

If they don't like America they can just go home!
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 17:47:56
September 03 2015 17:47 GMT
#45245
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 03 2015 17:51 GMT
#45246
Arizona stands to generate more than $60 million in marijuana tax revenue annually, if voters decide to legalize and regulate the plant for adult recreational purposes in 2016.

That's according to an independent analysis released Monday by Arizona's nonprofit Grand Canyon Institute. It found the state would rake in about $64 million per year from legal marijuana taxes, including $51 million that would go to K-12 education and all-day kindergarten programs in the state. That's significantly more than the $40 million in tax revenue for education backers of the ballot initiative projected last month -- a sum that opponents of the measure lambasted as unrealistically high and a local newspaper characterized as "a lie" in an August op-ed.

But at least according to the GCI, a research organization focusing on Arizona's fiscal and tax issues -- one that describes itself as "a centrist think-thank led by a bipartisan group of former state lawmakers, economists, community leaders, and academicians" -- the advocates were being conservative in their estimates.

"The revenue gains do exceed the $40 million espoused by proponents of the initiative," GCI's report reads.

Further, the research group projects that if the ballot measure were to pass, by 2019, once the regulated market was fully established, the state would raise $72 million annually with about $58 million for education alone.

“You can debate whether marijuana should be made legal for adults, but there’s no arguing the fact that this initiative will generate significant revenue for Arizona schools," J.P. Holyoak, chairman of the Campaign to Regulate Marijuana Like Alcohol, said in a statement reacting to GCI's report. "It might not be enough to solve all of our schools’ budget problems, but it will help immensely."

In its report, the GCI says it neither supports nor opposes the effort to legalize marijuana in the state.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 17:58 GMT
#45247
On September 04 2015 02:47 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career

Well he didn't defy the courts order once the marriages were annulled. He also didn't directly defy Prop 8 when it was passed and let the legal process take it's course. So a lot less to get worked up about.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
September 03 2015 18:02 GMT
#45248
Also, handing out government services with no cost to taxpayers is a lesser violation than refusing to provide government services altogether.
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
September 03 2015 18:03 GMT
#45249
On September 04 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 02:47 Cowboy64 wrote:
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career

Well he didn't defy the courts order once the marriages were annulled. He also didn't directly defy Prop 8 when it was passed and let the legal process take it's course. So a lot less to get worked up about.

Would you have advocated for jailing him if he had continued to issue the licences?

I'm just trying to get a feel for if it's okay to jail this woman because she's a bigoted old coot, or because she broke the law. Forgive me if I have my doubts as to which it really is.
SolaR-
Profile Blog Joined February 2004
United States2685 Posts
September 03 2015 18:04 GMT
#45250
She is lucky that she is allowed to believe in a god. Should be grateful. I would outlaw it.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 18:06 GMT
#45251
On September 04 2015 03:03 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:47 Cowboy64 wrote:
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career

Well he didn't defy the courts order once the marriages were annulled. He also didn't directly defy Prop 8 when it was passed and let the legal process take it's course. So a lot less to get worked up about.

Would you have advocated for jailing him if he had continued to issue the licences?

I'm just trying to get a feel for if it's okay to jail this woman because she's a bigoted old coot, or because she broke the law. Forgive me if I have my doubts as to which it really is.

Because it wasn't an offence that warranted jail time? His order violated the state law and the court overturned it. He and his office then complied with the court order. She violated the federal ruling on same sex marriage, the court told her she was wrong. Then she disregarded the court order.

This isn't rocket surgery.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
September 03 2015 18:10 GMT
#45252
On September 04 2015 03:06 Plansix wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 03:03 Cowboy64 wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:47 Cowboy64 wrote:
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career

Well he didn't defy the courts order once the marriages were annulled. He also didn't directly defy Prop 8 when it was passed and let the legal process take it's course. So a lot less to get worked up about.

Would you have advocated for jailing him if he had continued to issue the licences?

I'm just trying to get a feel for if it's okay to jail this woman because she's a bigoted old coot, or because she broke the law. Forgive me if I have my doubts as to which it really is.

Because it wasn't an offence that warranted jail time? His order violated the state law and the court overturned it. He and his office then complied with the court order. She violated the federal ruling on same sex marriage, the court told her she was wrong. Then she disregarded the court order.

This isn't rocket surgery.

So if Gavin Newsome had continued to issue licences, in violation of state law, would you have supported jailing him for it? I understand that she has continued to break the law, whereas he only broke the law once; my question is: if he had continued to break the law, would you support putting him in jail?
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 18:13 GMT
#45253
On September 04 2015 03:10 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 03:06 Plansix wrote:
On September 04 2015 03:03 Cowboy64 wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:47 Cowboy64 wrote:
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career

Well he didn't defy the courts order once the marriages were annulled. He also didn't directly defy Prop 8 when it was passed and let the legal process take it's course. So a lot less to get worked up about.

Would you have advocated for jailing him if he had continued to issue the licences?

I'm just trying to get a feel for if it's okay to jail this woman because she's a bigoted old coot, or because she broke the law. Forgive me if I have my doubts as to which it really is.

Because it wasn't an offence that warranted jail time? His order violated the state law and the court overturned it. He and his office then complied with the court order. She violated the federal ruling on same sex marriage, the court told her she was wrong. Then she disregarded the court order.

This isn't rocket surgery.

So if Gavin Newsome had continued to issue licences, in violation of state law, would you have supported jailing him for it? I understand that she has continued to break the law, whereas he only broke the law once; my question is: if he had continued to break the law, would you support putting him in jail?

I mean, sure, if he when down the crazy road and started to demand people violate the Supreme court's order or be fired. Or started issuing licenses himself in his spare time because no one else would do it.

But that would be a pretty good reason for him not to be Mayor by most standards.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 03 2015 18:14 GMT
#45254
Well the point, actually, is that he couldn't do any of those things, although I supposed he could have continued issuing worthless marriage licenses that courts would have ignored.
Freeeeeeedom
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 18:19 GMT
#45255
I find the entire analogy to be sort of silly since the main goal of violating the law was to start the discussion about gay marriage and work through the process in the court and political system. His intent was clear and the people who lived in the city supported it.

This case is a clear example of someone pushing against a solved ruled upon issue, like a Governor standing in-front of a public school with a fire ax.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14104 Posts
September 03 2015 18:26 GMT
#45256
Quakers don't believe in violence therefore all military spending is unconstitutional?

The whole problem was she was the only one to issue licenses doesn't this mean then no one can get licence as she refuses to give them to gay marriage? She must therefore be against straight marriage as well.

I wish people would think things through before they make their stands on issues.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 03 2015 18:30 GMT
#45257
On September 04 2015 03:10 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 04 2015 03:06 Plansix wrote:
On September 04 2015 03:03 Cowboy64 wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:58 Plansix wrote:
On September 04 2015 02:47 Cowboy64 wrote:
In 2004, [San-Francisco Mayor Gavin] Newsom gained national attention when he directed the San Francisco city–county clerk to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples, in violation of the then-current state law. In August 2004, the Supreme Court of California annulled the marriages that Newsom had authorized, as they conflicted with state law at that time. Still, Newsom's unexpected move brought national attention to the issues of gay marriage, solidifying political support for Newsom in San Francisco and in the gay community.

I wonder if there was this great concern for following the law when it was a liberal mayor in San Francisco.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gavin_Newsom#Early_political_career

Well he didn't defy the courts order once the marriages were annulled. He also didn't directly defy Prop 8 when it was passed and let the legal process take it's course. So a lot less to get worked up about.

Would you have advocated for jailing him if he had continued to issue the licences?

I'm just trying to get a feel for if it's okay to jail this woman because she's a bigoted old coot, or because she broke the law. Forgive me if I have my doubts as to which it really is.

Because it wasn't an offence that warranted jail time? His order violated the state law and the court overturned it. He and his office then complied with the court order. She violated the federal ruling on same sex marriage, the court told her she was wrong. Then she disregarded the court order.

This isn't rocket surgery.

So if Gavin Newsome had continued to issue licences, in violation of state law, would you have supported jailing him for it? I understand that she has continued to break the law, whereas he only broke the law once; my question is: if he had continued to break the law, would you support putting him in jail?


The charge under which the woman is being put in jail is contempt of court.
In the situation you described, Newsome wouldn't be put in jail for violating that state law (which likely has no penal provisions in it at any rate), but might for contempt of court by ignoring the court order.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
September 03 2015 19:41 GMT
#45258
On September 04 2015 03:19 Plansix wrote:
I find the entire analogy to be sort of silly since the main goal of violating the law was to start the discussion about gay marriage and work through the process in the court and political system. His intent was clear and the people who lived in the city supported it.

This case is a clear example of someone pushing against a solved ruled upon issue, like a Governor standing in-front of a public school with a fire ax.

Mayor violates law, but you agree that the law is bad, therefore it's "start[ing] a discussion" and a clear goal of a court process (???). It sounds like you're advocating judicial immunity for unpopular laws and the supremacy of courts over legislative process. I'm constantly reminded how much of this reduces to faith in justices to govern and outright rejection of government by the people. How easy you find it to whitewash activists that agitate for your preferred direction of social change.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
September 03 2015 19:44 GMT
#45259
We don't have to whitewash, you're just using rose tinted glasses to compare two very different things.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 03 2015 19:55 GMT
#45260
Lately I've heard a fair number of complaints about "unelected judges." I'm not referring necessarily to what danglars just said (that simply reminded me of this), but more generally its something I've heard from a variety of sources.
As an empirical observation, the approval ratings of the unelected justices of the Supreme court is consistently higher than that of Congress. The analyses I've seen that compare the performance of elected judges vs appointed judges found appointed judges to be better on average (less corrupt, better performance views by the community, less misconduct).
I suspect people have a knee-jerk pro-democracy reaction, that things should be done by vote, regardless of whether those specific things tend to actually turn out more to their satisfaction through voting. All forms of governments have strengths and weaknesses, and most people probably aren't properly aware of the weaknesses in democracy (as typically practiced), so that may be why they default to saying do it through elected people, even though that may be demonstrably inferior.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
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