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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 03 2015 02:01 GMT
#45221
Yellow Springs is a small college town in Ohio that has more than one head shop and a lot of tie-dye and hemp.

Many would consider it ground zero for likely supporters of the referendum on the ballot this November that could make Ohio the fifth state to legalize recreational and medical marijuana.

But the proposal is drawing some unusual opposition — and it's coming from residents who generally support legalizing marijuana.

Samantha Van Ness is among them. While she's all for legalizing marijuana, the 25-year-old says she's dead set against the amendment that will be on the ballot.

"I would rather take the minor misdemeanor fine than let someone have such a massive monopoly in my state," she says.

And that's the word lots of liberals and old hippies in Yellow Springs don't like: monopoly. Many people who generally support legalization have a problem with the group ResponsibleOhio that's pushing this initiative.

That's because it specifies just 10 locations in the state where growing pot would be allowed. And 10 groups of investors already have dibs on those sites.

These same investors are sinking $20 million into the campaign. So in essence, they are paying to try to amend the Ohio Constitution to grant themselves pot growing rights.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Fighter
Profile Joined August 2010
Korea (South)1531 Posts
September 03 2015 05:40 GMT
#45222
On September 03 2015 11:01 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
Show nested quote +
Yellow Springs is a small college town in Ohio that has more than one head shop and a lot of tie-dye and hemp.

Many would consider it ground zero for likely supporters of the referendum on the ballot this November that could make Ohio the fifth state to legalize recreational and medical marijuana.

But the proposal is drawing some unusual opposition — and it's coming from residents who generally support legalizing marijuana.

Samantha Van Ness is among them. While she's all for legalizing marijuana, the 25-year-old says she's dead set against the amendment that will be on the ballot.

"I would rather take the minor misdemeanor fine than let someone have such a massive monopoly in my state," she says.

And that's the word lots of liberals and old hippies in Yellow Springs don't like: monopoly. Many people who generally support legalization have a problem with the group ResponsibleOhio that's pushing this initiative.

That's because it specifies just 10 locations in the state where growing pot would be allowed. And 10 groups of investors already have dibs on those sites.

These same investors are sinking $20 million into the campaign. So in essence, they are paying to try to amend the Ohio Constitution to grant themselves pot growing rights.


Source


Yep. I just came back to Ohio about a month ago. All of the people I know that you would expect to be excited about legalization are pretty against it for this very reason.

I mean really. What a joke. We're finally going to rein in marijuana under the fold of good ol' capitalism, and they have to pull this shit? It's as if NO ONE would actually support this if they knew what it was really doing (well, other than the people who profit, obviously).

Cue all the people who rage about how destructive capitalism or crony capitalism are. (justifiably or not)
For Aiur???
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
September 03 2015 05:53 GMT
#45223
Lol. That is some serious rent seeking. I mean, we see it all the time (PA beer distributors, Tesla, sugar) but rarely that obviously.
Freeeeeeedom
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 10:28:27
September 03 2015 10:28 GMT
#45224
They'll probably get away with it but we'll see. It's going to be a close vote.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 13:39:21
September 03 2015 13:38 GMT
#45225
On September 03 2015 02:53 Yoav wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2015 23:29 Plansix wrote:And the discussion of why they decided that birth control or gay marriage was the specific section of the bible they decided to care about is a totally valid discussion. There are a bunch of sections of that book most Christians ignore or just are not aware of.

Show nested quote +
On September 02 2015 22:05 Plansix wrote:People cited the Bible to justify the morality and legality of slavery. That book can be used to justify anything.


So I really don't mean to go after Plansix in particular, since I think we're at similar places on a lot of this stuff, but it's that point in the debate where the Bible guy has to point out that these cliches aren't really true.

Yes, if you take the fundamentalist position that "if the Bible says it, it must be true and valid" you end up having to pick and choose between all sorts of things. But if you really think you can quote any bit of scripture completely out of context and without reference to the overall narrative, you also end up thinking that "crucify him" (Mk 15.13 etc.) is also the "word of God." But no, obviously the Bible is a huge narrative, and each line has some purpose in that story.

Star Wars isn't ambiguous on atheism just because Han says "There's no mystical energy field controlling MY destiny" before saying "may the Force be with you." Those two lines are part of a character's progression from nihilistic ego-centrism to a religious and revolutionary faith.

In Christianity, the Bible is "Progressively Revealed." That is, humanity got to know God better progressively, with Jesus' life and teaching representing the culmination of that. The later letters show some acculturation away from Christ's message, and the struggle since then has been to fully comprehend what Jesus was on about. Most Protestants would see this continuing act of discovery/revelation in the Reformation, and most mainline Protestants would also see it in the Church's in-progress embrace of homosexuality.

TL;DR-- Bible is a story of humans getting to know God, not a rulebook.

you are projecting one interpretation of the bible as the true interpretation

objectively (empirically), there are many conflicting interpretations of the bible, which include both yours and the fundamentalist ones, with no clear authority to definitively declare either of them "correct" or "true"

of course theres progressive christians, but the point stands that all theological foundations are fraught with the issue that there are no provable premises in theology and they're all just essentially arbitrary philosophical positions

granted, lots of secular positions are arbitrary in their own ways too, but... yea its watevz
posting on liquid sites in current year
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 13:50:03
September 03 2015 13:47 GMT
#45226
This board is not the place for it, but you are incorrect in asserting that there is an absolute relativity to exegetical, doctrinal, and dogmatic practice relative to religious expression. Contrary to mainstream secular thought, there are a host of critical methods and perspectives that give rise to a qualitative analysis of religion, though you are correct in pointing to the fraught nature of this endeavor (which is a big part of why this board prohibits religious discussions). Moreover, empiricism is only one piece of the pie, so while it is true that "there are no provable premises in theology," that has more to do with the idiosyncratic nature of belief systems rather than there being an objective relativity among them. Religion is not science, so let's not pretend otherwise in evaluating one with the tools of the other.

Besides, all philosophical positions are essentially arbitrary
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
September 03 2015 13:50 GMT
#45227
yea some methods and perspectives are clearly better than others (from my subjective perspective), but what often matters in the end for how this stuff ends up in politics is counting up the numbers that believe in the various conclusions out there multiplied by a factor of how invested they are in applying their conclusion to society/others

i dont disagree with anything you said though yea
posting on liquid sites in current year
Cowboy64
Profile Joined April 2015
115 Posts
September 03 2015 15:05 GMT
#45228
On September 02 2015 23:13 KwarK wrote:It took about 200 years to convince conservatives that black people were human, and another 50 to get gays included too. One thing at a time.

Modern conservatives are the ideological children of the abolitionists. In fact, the vast majority of politicians from the Dixiecrats remained Democrats for the rest of their lives.

Not that it matters, but I do think that particular smear should be answered.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42540 Posts
September 03 2015 15:06 GMT
#45229
On September 04 2015 00:05 Cowboy64 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 02 2015 23:13 KwarK wrote:It took about 200 years to convince conservatives that black people were human, and another 50 to get gays included too. One thing at a time.

Modern conservatives are the ideological children of the abolitionists. In fact, the vast majority of politicians from the Dixiecrats remained Democrats for the rest of their lives.

Not that it matters, but I do think that particular smear should be answered.

I used small c conservatives, I did not use Republicans. Republican is not the same thing as conservative.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 03 2015 15:55 GMT
#45230
Hillary Clinton has unveiled a $10bn plan to help contain substance abuse across America, as the nation grapples in particular with a growing opioid crisis that in some states cost more than 1,000 deaths last year.

The Democratic presidential candidate on Wednesday laid out an approach to tackling both drug and alcohol addiction that shifts the emphasis away from incarceration and toward treatment, and would bolster preventative programming at the state and community level. Clinton’s plan would notably invest $7.5bn in funding toward new federal-state partnerships over 10 years, under which states that present a comprehensive plan for treating substance abuse could qualify for a grant from the federal government.

“It’s time we recognize that there are gaps in our health care system that allow too many to go without care – and invest in treatment,” Clinton wrote in an op-ed in the in the New Hampshire Union Leader late on Tuesday that previewed her proposals.

“This is not new. We’re not just now ‘discovering’ this problem. But we should be saying enough is enough,” she wrote. “It’s time we recognize as a nation that for too long, we have had a quiet epidemic on our hands. Plain and simple, drug and alcohol addiction is a disease, not a moral failing – and we must treat it as such.”

Substance abuse has emerged as a key issue in the 2016 presidential contest, especially in the early voting state of New Hampshire where state officials have dubbed the heroin epidemic “the Ebola of northern New England”. Clinton noted in her op-ed that she did not envision drug abuse would become a major tenet of her presidential campaign, but through her travels to states like New Hampshire she heard about just how pressing the issue had become.

The former secretary of state started to address addiction more frequently on the campaign trail in the early months of the summer, citing conversations with voters in Iowa about meth and prescription drug abuse and heroin abuse in New Hampshire.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 17:01:30
September 03 2015 16:40 GMT
#45231
Another mine has just detonated. In a remarkably incoherent and injudicious opinion favoring the anti-abortion organization March for Life, U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon of Washington, D.C., ruled Monday that the religious rights of employees of a secular anti-abortion organization are infringed because they're required to buy health insurance that covers contraception, even though nothing forces them to actually acquire contraceptives if they don't wish.

Because the contraception mandate applies to secular employers but not religious groups, he found that it "violates the equal protection clause of the Fifth Amendment" and is therefore "unconstitutional." (Leon is typically sloppy here. The Equal Protection Clause is found in the Fourteenth Amendment, not the Fifth; it's applied to the federal government by the Fifth, but via that amendment's Due Process Clause. Shouldn't a federal judge know this?)


Source

All of my what
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18824 Posts
September 03 2015 16:51 GMT
#45232
It's always fun to see a Federal Court of Appeals reprimand a district judge The DC Circuit doesn't take kindly to sloppy jurisprudence.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 16:54:47
September 03 2015 16:52 GMT
#45233
Yay, religion can be used as an excuse to avoid any federal or state mandate. No one has to participate in anything! I hate my federal income tax and I am sure I can find a part of the bible that says my employer has to stop taking it out of my pay check. And I am sure Anti-Vaxers are going to love this ruling.

On September 04 2015 01:51 farvacola wrote:
It's always fun to see a Federal Court of Appeals reprimand a district judge The DC Circuit doesn't take kindly to sloppy jurisprudence.


The fact that he can't even cite the amendments properly is telling. I expect the Defendant's appeal will be held up by deciding on which part of the ruling is stupidest.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
September 03 2015 17:02 GMT
#45234
I'd almost be for impeaching/removing that judge. I mean, I have to question whether he's senile or suffering some sort of dementia, or just grossly incompetent. To mix up the amendments like that in a ruling is just terrible.
At least it'll be one of the easiest appeals ever
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 17:06 GMT
#45235
I would point out that he has several staff members who also have law degrees that could have proofread the ruling. It's pretty clear he didn't feel that was necessary.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 03 2015 17:08 GMT
#45236
I'm kinda hoping he's sandbagging the ruling on purpose.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Yoav
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1874 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-09-03 17:11:04
September 03 2015 17:09 GMT
#45237
Little background:
+ Show Spoiler +
On September 03 2015 22:38 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
of course theres progressive christians, but the point stands that all theological foundations are fraught with the issue that there are no provable premises in theology and they're all just essentially arbitrary philosophical positions


To be clear, the ideas I'm laying out aren't specific to "progressive" Christianity. They are the main Christian line through thousands of years of history. How progressive revelation has been understood has changed (particularly since the Reformation and renewed study of the Bible in Hebrew/Greek), but the premise as I laid it out is an idea Augustine and Jerome believed in as much as I do. This is because it's an idea that is mentioned in one way or another throughout the Bible, where people are told God used to talk to them one way (because of their weakness) and now talks to them another way (as they spiritually mature).

The Fundamentalist way of reading the Bible without regard to authors or context is a modern (c1900, out of New Jersey) take on the old heresies that picked random verses here and there to make some biblical claim.

Edit: Also, as a general point, lots of things are true without being provable, including basically any true point about literature you wanted to make.


Now I happen to think that the true meaning of all this matters--and matters very much--but yes, in the US politics forum our subject of debate is how all this plays out in the political sphere. And I guess for that I should say that what I'm getting at is generally the lay-clergy divide. Educated Christians, those who have studied scholarly information on the Bible, are generally far more socially liberal (but theologically orthodox) than the laity. In terms of political affiliation, they are way less conservative than their parishioners, and the gap gets bigger the more regular the churchgoers. And this leads to all sorts of issues.

Lay conservatism is terrifying to a lot of pastors I know, who are always walking on pins and needles trying to avoid saying anything pro-gay, because they're worried about losing half the flock. And let's be real; money is an issue. The richer congregants at any congregation tend to be older, whiter, and more conservative on social issues. I know churches that would have to shut down services they offer to the poor if their pastors took a stand on gay marriage.

They still should, of course. Church should be in the Truth business, not in the Coddling Prejudice business. And honestly I believe you could make up the losses over the long run by bringing in new people. But it's terrifying to do. Anyway, that's why educated Christian opinion and lay Christian opinion are so radically divided.
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
September 03 2015 17:23 GMT
#45238
ASHLAND, Ky. — A federal judge here on Thursday ordered a Kentucky clerk jailed for contempt of court because of her refusal to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples.

The clerk, Kim Davis of Rowan County, was ordered incarcerated after a hearing here before Judge David L. Bunning of Federal District Court. The contempt finding was another legal defeat for Ms. Davis, who has argued that she should not be forced to issue licenses that conflict with her religious beliefs.

“The court cannot condone the willful disobedience of its lawfully issued order,” Judge Bunning said. “If you give people the opportunity to choose which orders they follow, that’s what potentially causes problems.”


Source

RIP/ well we knew it was going to happen
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
September 03 2015 17:27 GMT
#45239
Surprised the Judge jailed her instantly, but she is a court officer and she can't claim to not know what was going to happen. Soon the crowd funding will start.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Slaughter
Profile Blog Joined November 2003
United States20254 Posts
September 03 2015 17:31 GMT
#45240
Fox is going to eat this shit up. War on Christianity x100000000000000
Never Knows Best.
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