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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 20 2015 04:05 cLutZ wrote: Also it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with math and government finances. Good, so given that immigrants (both legal and illegal) overall have a net positive impact on government finances, I take it that you are in favor of more open immigration policies and of providing legal status to unauthorized immigrants?
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An increasing amount of research suggests the environment — an issue that has long been seen within the purview of progressive, white liberals — is now increasingly important to Latinos.
A new poll conducted by Latino Decisions (a polling firm focusing on Hispanics in America) on behalf of two environmental nonprofit groups — Earthjustice and GreenLatinos — finds that Latinos are deeply concerned about the environment and its potential impact on their families.
The poll shows that Latinos place a high priority on the personal effects of climate change, particularly air and water pollution. Eighty-five percent of those surveyed said "reducing smog and air pollution is extremely or very important"; compared with 80 percent for comprehensive immigration reform.
"A lot of Latino households in the United States are in locations that are adversely affected by particulate pollution, by poor water quality," said Gary Segura, co-founder of Latino Decisions. " So quality of life, direct exposure to environmental hazards is quite common among the Latino population; we shouldn't be surprised they're concerned about it."
And Latinos, more than other Americans, see climate change as a man-made problem. Sixty-six percent of Latinos in this most recent poll believe human activities are to blame for global warming, compared with 57 percent of the general population, according to a Gallup survey last year.
This particular poll was small — a national sample of just 1,200 registered Latino voters who were interviewed via landlines and cellphones in English and Spanish. The poll has a margin of error of 2.8 percentage points.
But the reason it's important is that it confirms a growing a body of research about Latinos and environmental issues.
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On August 20 2015 05:37 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:This nation has a western world heritage, and in Western Europe at the time, America was "new" the them. So that's a no. I hope this at least makes it clear for those not too stubborn to see reason. If "reason" is code for " don't have any proof besides my own, race obsessed mind," then the answer is indeed "no." Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 04:49 Mercy13 wrote:On August 20 2015 04:19 Introvert wrote:On August 20 2015 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 20 2015 03:47 Introvert wrote:On August 20 2015 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:it was all new for them, so they started calling it the new world, end of story. That doesn't make it painfully obvious? I'm not talking about white supremacy as in robes and pillowcases, I'm talking about the (inadvertent) white supremacy displayed in the quote. It was new to white people, they called it new, end of story (who cares if people had been living there building communities for thousands of years, I mean they were non-white). It comes from the same Euro-white-centric view of the world that claims Columbus "discovered" America. No! There were people with distinct cultures and histories predating European countries by thousands of years already there. But because white Europeans saw themselves as superior they cast aside that "savage" culture and claimed the land "New" and theirs. Why the rest of the US still has a "Columbus day" and why it's still commonly known as "The New World" is a longer story and takes more unpacking. But if I came over to your house and claimed I discovered this new house and it was mine now it would probably help one understand why it's so ridiculous. I have no problem with generally taking only the best, brightest, and wealthiest. The USA doesn't exist to be a charity. Take down the Statue of Liberty first, then we can talk about refusing refugees and people escaping crippling governments. Actually I was just tired and made a silly mistake. I intended to quote from the article, but then again "New World" isn't the type of phrase that needs explaining. It has nothing to do with any of the BS you are going on about. And the purpose of immigration is ultimately about what is good for the citizens, which is why preferring certian groups (like English speakers) makes sense. Immigration after the 1960s means we have to reevaluate some things. Moreover, most citizens are to the right of politicians on this issue, not that it matters. The "New World" phrasing comes from how I describe, simply saying it isn't true might satisfy your personal perspective but it's simply disregarding history. No one who lived in North America for the thousands of years before Europeans showed up called it "The New World", but some white European Johnny come latelys come over and since white history is history (as far as North America is concerned) we stick with these newcomer's description instead of accepting the terms used by the people living here long before Europe even had countries. The underlying narrative being that things aren't "real" until beheld by white eyes, anything seen by millions of people but not white people can therefor be accurately labeled as "New". Do you have some source that would show it was their whiteness that contributed to the phrasing? Of course no one who already lived there would call it "new." What do you think native Americans would have called Europe? This is so classic GreenHorizons. Moreover, the fact that once again you try to dive into my mind and tell ME why I did something is absurd. This set of posts perfectly exemplifies the GH thinking process, as well its deeps flaws. On August 20 2015 04:10 Acrofales wrote:On August 20 2015 03:56 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2015 03:34 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 03:29 Gorsameth wrote:On August 20 2015 03:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 03:02 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2015 02:56 xDaunt wrote: [quote] ....which is why Americans are a bunch of communists. Oh, wait.... I'm basically allowed into America because I have rich parents and come from England. Oh, and I'm young enough and smart enough to find and understand the lengthy guides to how to navigate the paperwork without an immigration lawyer. The vast majority of Americans descend from people who would not be able to immigrate today. A lot of them wouldn't be able to immigrate today had they not been born here. I see a problem with that. I have no problem with generally taking only the best, brightest, and wealthiest. The USA doesn't exist to be a charity. Which is funny and sad considering your country is basically founded on the exact opposite. America is a very different place than it was 200 -- or even 100 -- years ago. Only a fool would argue that the same policy considerations apply. Which is remarkably convenient for the people advocating that the ladder that brought them to the top be removed less other people follow them. Kwark, do you believe that the US should have an open door immigration policy like it did during the 19th century and into the early 20th century? Where basically the only thing stopping someone from emigrating to the US was the cost and risk of a boat voyage? How do you see such a policy working in practice? Because xDaunt is simply pointing out the obvious, to me, which is that the US that had virtually unlimited immigration was a very different country in a very different world. And thus, policies might need revising in this changed environment. Some form of restriction on immigration now seems necessary. When the borders were open, the US was a largely unpopulated country with incredible potential and too little manpower to exploit that. That is simply not the case right now. It's not even that conditions have changed, today we have more immigrants with less time between "waves" then we have ever had, from what I recall reading. Before we'd have waves punctuated by periods of relatively low immigration. Today it's more like a river. Good or not, point is, there are concerns and conditions that exist today that weren't around at the turn of the last century. I'm going to try to introduce some perspective into the whole "New World" discussion through a thought experiment. Let's say you go on a vacation to Europe, and are really excited to get there. You decide you are going to call it New America. Europeans politely remind you that actually all these places already have names and it isn't really new. France, Spain, Italy, etc.. So you come back with some terrible diseases and a few armies, and wipe out 90% of the people currently living in Europe. Entire nations are wiped out, so that no one even remembers what they were called before. After a while the people come to be referred to as "Native New Americans" and no one remembers what the old countries used to be called. In this context, maybe you can sort of understand why calling the Western Hemisphere the "New World" is sort of a touchy subject? I mean, if the European conquerors HADN'T been white supremacists they probably would have tried to preserve the existing cultures including the names of the various nations. Instead they just killed everyone and called it the New World. Well, ignoring the glaring difference between America and your thought experiment, I wouldn't expect it to be a touchy subject for people who have no reason to make it one. I don't know if Native Americans at the time would be so insulted. They had their own nations and tribes, I'm not sure they even had a word for the entire continent (in any of their various languages). Also, as a side note, they are called "Native Americans" not "Native New Americans" which is an admission right at the start that they were here first.
Your posts reflect a genuine obliviousness. I'm of the camp that thinks only a personal relationship or old age can reconcile people of your perspective with reality, so I won't waste more of our time. This is definitely one of those "dress" moments where I just don't fully understand how you can't see what is right in front of you and clearly being presented in your posts.
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United States42802 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:33 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 05:06 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2015 04:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 04:31 KwarK wrote: The objections being raised against Mexicans today are echoes of the ones raised against Italians in the early 20th Century and Irish in the 19th Century. That they're lazy, criminal, culturally alien and do forth. All Catholic groups too notably. This is not a new 21st Century issue. This has been around as long as WASPs have felt threatened by the unknown. Thoee past groups worked out okay, enriching the American melting pot, the Mexicans are unlikely to bring about the end of America. Also America really is not overcrowded. I have yet to see you make one argument as to why an open borders policy would actually be "good policy" for the US beyond just being an "equitable" policy. Good policy is a subjective definition. If you define "good policy" as increasing the wealth of current American citizens then ending slavery was certainly very bad policy, the American citizens previously got to own other people and benefit from the labour of those slaves. Ending it in the name of making things more "equitable" was certainly bad policy. But there has been a school of thought that dates from the foundation of the United States and continues to this day that freedom and justice have value, even if they get in the way of "fuck you, I got mine". Irish American immigration certainly had its issues, from the monstrousity you call St. Patrick's Day to the birth, life and presidency of G.W. Bush. But without them you also wouldn't have had JFK. Or Reagan for those on the Republican side. We've already got a Cinco de Mayo monstrousity, ending immigration now won't undo that, so I'd argue it'd be good policy to wait for the Mexican JFK. So, two strands of this. Firstly, good policy can be defined as policy that conforms to the stated aims and beliefs of the United States. Allowing immigration certainly meets this first criteria and history has very much favoured America making the "equitable" policy decision over trying to maximise the short term wealth of its current citizens. Secondly, it's good policy because it has a long history of being a successful policy that makes America the great nation it is today. We've been here before, this debate has happened before and very few people would, after seeing how it turned out, still argue your side. You still haven't given any good reasons for letting everyone in as opposed to a measured approach. Are you actually saying that the US can financially absorb the burden of anyone and everyone who comes here? Are you saying that there should be no selection whatsoever? I would advocate for making legal immigration much less discriminatory certainly. People coming into the country should have IDs and be given immigration numbers that the state can keep track of who is within the borders and so that the immigrants themselves can prove their identity. So a system where they simply cross the border unchecked and then disappear into the United States would not be supported by me.
A viable legal option (and again, the current immigration system is not viable for most people) that provided immediate right to work, the ability to take a driving theory/practical test for a US driving license, a social security number for paying taxes and so forth and all the other things that you need just to live in the United States would be advocated by me. And, of course, deportation with no chance of reentry for criminals etc.
The current legal immigration process in the United States in many ways forces criminality upon people. If you are unable to legally work for over a year because the Green Card system is backed up then you need to be either independently wealthy or get paid under the table. If you can't get a driving license because the DMV won't work with you (and the New Mexico DMV asked me to get an authorized (they have a list of translators who can stamp it for the state) translation of my British driving license) you better have a lot of money for Uber or you'll end up driving without a license. And fuck getting a job without a car in many cities.
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On August 20 2015 04:44 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 03:17 Deathstar wrote: Yeah the welfare state needs to get cut down hard. That's how I see it. We're not going to actually get rid of these illegals, even if we want to, but it looks like a good portion of "Americans" want an open border. What you have in the US is not a welfare state in the slightest. Also, the idea that "immigrants come to leech of our welfare money" is pretty much an urban legend to all my knowledge. They just want to live in a country that is less shit than the one they come from (can you really blame them for that?), and rather often end up working more for less money than the native citizens.
Compared to the third world countries these illegals come from, US is a welfare state. The illegals know this, and the illegals know they won't be punished for forcing their way into the country, and so they come in swarms.
To your bolded, everyone wants to improve their lives. Illegals are nothing special. What you're saying is that the US is up for grabs by every poor person in the world. A porous border with guaranteed entitlements for everyone. Yeah I don't think so.
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United States42802 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:55 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 04:44 Simberto wrote:On August 20 2015 03:17 Deathstar wrote: Yeah the welfare state needs to get cut down hard. That's how I see it. We're not going to actually get rid of these illegals, even if we want to, but it looks like a good portion of "Americans" want an open border. What you have in the US is not a welfare state in the slightest. Also, the idea that "immigrants come to leech of our welfare money" is pretty much an urban legend to all my knowledge. They just want to live in a country that is less shit than the one they come from (can you really blame them for that?), and rather often end up working more for less money than the native citizens.
Compared to the third world countries these illegals come from, US is a welfare state. The illegals know this, and the illegals know they won't be punished for forcing their way into the country, and so they come in swarms. To your bolded, everyone wants to improve their lives. Illegals are nothing special. What you're saying is that the US is up for grabs by every poor person in the world. A porous border with guaranteed entitlements for everyone. Yeah I don't think so. As opposed to your ancestors who came to the US to fix up a bad country for all the poor souls already living there? White guys swarming into the new world to grab what they can and put a fence around it is basically the American dream. But you, as someone granted citizenship by birth, feel that you have some special right to all this and that you deserve the profits of your ancestor's envy. And as such you feel threatened by the people trying to follow the same path you walked.
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Really? I had to get an authorized translation of my driver's license for it to be recognized here in Brazil, but that only makes sense: my license is in Dutch (and English), and not in Portuguese. If your license is already in English (British English is not different enough from American English to warrant translation), then why the hell require an authorized translation? Sounds like really really lazy lawmaking to me.
Regarding the policy suggestion: if you open up borders like that, what are the long term effects? Have there been any studies on it? Will it incentivize more Chinese/Indians/Latinos to move to the US? How many? What is a realistic projection of the economy with these numbers of immigration?
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The Federal Reserve is inching closer to the first interest rate increase in nearly a decade, minutes of the central bankers latest meeting indicated on Wednesday.
The minutes of the Federal Open Market Committee’s (FOMC) 28-29 July meeting did not mention any timetable, but did state that most members believed that economic conditions were “approaching” those that would warrant a rate increase.
Most economists expect that rates, which have been held at near-zero since the 2008 financial crisis, will be raised at the Fed’s next policy meeting on 16-17 September. But the recent collapse in China’s stock markets and worries they may spread may slow the Fed, according to some economists.
The minutes said: “Most judged that the conditions for policy firming had not yet been achieved, but they noted that conditions were approaching that point. Participants observed that the labor market had improved notably since early this year, but many saw scope for some further improvement.”
However, other FOMC members continued to be concerned that inflation remains too low. “Some participants expressed the view that the incoming information had not yet provided grounds for reasonable confidence that inflation would move back to 2% over the medium term and that the inflation outlook thus might not soon meet one of the conditions established by the [Fed] for initiating a firming of policy,” the minutes said.
At the last meeting, the committee left interest rates unchanged at near zero but once again signalled that rates will rise later this year.
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United States42802 Posts
On August 20 2015 05:56 Acrofales wrote: Really? I had to get an authorized translation of my driver's license for it to be recognized here in Brazil, but that only makes sense: my license is in Dutch (and English), and not in Portuguese. If your license is already in English (British English is not different enough from American English to warrant translation), then why the hell require an authorized translation? Sounds like really really lazy lawmaking to me. The lady at the DMV told me that she couldn't read my date of birth without it being translated into English. It was written in numbers, not words. And yes, we do speak English in Britain.
I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm saying these are the barriers you face when immigrating into the United States.
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On August 20 2015 06:01 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 05:56 Acrofales wrote: Really? I had to get an authorized translation of my driver's license for it to be recognized here in Brazil, but that only makes sense: my license is in Dutch (and English), and not in Portuguese. If your license is already in English (British English is not different enough from American English to warrant translation), then why the hell require an authorized translation? Sounds like really really lazy lawmaking to me. The lady at the DMV told me that she couldn't read my date of birth without it being translated into English. It was written in numbers, not words. And yes, we do speak English in Britain. I'm not saying it makes sense, I'm saying these are the barriers you face when immigrating into the United States. I want that translation job. I could literally write a computer program to do that. Remove some lls, replace ou with o, and flip day/month to month/day. GG! Please pay me $100, because I am the only one in the state who has the official government stamp.
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On August 20 2015 05:49 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 05:37 Introvert wrote:On August 20 2015 04:47 GreenHorizons wrote:This nation has a western world heritage, and in Western Europe at the time, America was "new" the them. So that's a no. I hope this at least makes it clear for those not too stubborn to see reason. If "reason" is code for " don't have any proof besides my own, race obsessed mind," then the answer is indeed "no." On August 20 2015 04:49 Mercy13 wrote:On August 20 2015 04:19 Introvert wrote:On August 20 2015 04:08 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 20 2015 03:47 Introvert wrote:On August 20 2015 03:19 GreenHorizons wrote:it was all new for them, so they started calling it the new world, end of story. That doesn't make it painfully obvious? I'm not talking about white supremacy as in robes and pillowcases, I'm talking about the (inadvertent) white supremacy displayed in the quote. It was new to white people, they called it new, end of story (who cares if people had been living there building communities for thousands of years, I mean they were non-white). It comes from the same Euro-white-centric view of the world that claims Columbus "discovered" America. No! There were people with distinct cultures and histories predating European countries by thousands of years already there. But because white Europeans saw themselves as superior they cast aside that "savage" culture and claimed the land "New" and theirs. Why the rest of the US still has a "Columbus day" and why it's still commonly known as "The New World" is a longer story and takes more unpacking. But if I came over to your house and claimed I discovered this new house and it was mine now it would probably help one understand why it's so ridiculous. I have no problem with generally taking only the best, brightest, and wealthiest. The USA doesn't exist to be a charity. Take down the Statue of Liberty first, then we can talk about refusing refugees and people escaping crippling governments. Actually I was just tired and made a silly mistake. I intended to quote from the article, but then again "New World" isn't the type of phrase that needs explaining. It has nothing to do with any of the BS you are going on about. And the purpose of immigration is ultimately about what is good for the citizens, which is why preferring certian groups (like English speakers) makes sense. Immigration after the 1960s means we have to reevaluate some things. Moreover, most citizens are to the right of politicians on this issue, not that it matters. The "New World" phrasing comes from how I describe, simply saying it isn't true might satisfy your personal perspective but it's simply disregarding history. No one who lived in North America for the thousands of years before Europeans showed up called it "The New World", but some white European Johnny come latelys come over and since white history is history (as far as North America is concerned) we stick with these newcomer's description instead of accepting the terms used by the people living here long before Europe even had countries. The underlying narrative being that things aren't "real" until beheld by white eyes, anything seen by millions of people but not white people can therefor be accurately labeled as "New". Do you have some source that would show it was their whiteness that contributed to the phrasing? Of course no one who already lived there would call it "new." What do you think native Americans would have called Europe? This is so classic GreenHorizons. Moreover, the fact that once again you try to dive into my mind and tell ME why I did something is absurd. This set of posts perfectly exemplifies the GH thinking process, as well its deeps flaws. On August 20 2015 04:10 Acrofales wrote:On August 20 2015 03:56 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2015 03:34 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 03:29 Gorsameth wrote:On August 20 2015 03:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 03:02 KwarK wrote: [quote] I'm basically allowed into America because I have rich parents and come from England. Oh, and I'm young enough and smart enough to find and understand the lengthy guides to how to navigate the paperwork without an immigration lawyer. The vast majority of Americans descend from people who would not be able to immigrate today. A lot of them wouldn't be able to immigrate today had they not been born here. I see a problem with that. I have no problem with generally taking only the best, brightest, and wealthiest. The USA doesn't exist to be a charity. Which is funny and sad considering your country is basically founded on the exact opposite. America is a very different place than it was 200 -- or even 100 -- years ago. Only a fool would argue that the same policy considerations apply. Which is remarkably convenient for the people advocating that the ladder that brought them to the top be removed less other people follow them. Kwark, do you believe that the US should have an open door immigration policy like it did during the 19th century and into the early 20th century? Where basically the only thing stopping someone from emigrating to the US was the cost and risk of a boat voyage? How do you see such a policy working in practice? Because xDaunt is simply pointing out the obvious, to me, which is that the US that had virtually unlimited immigration was a very different country in a very different world. And thus, policies might need revising in this changed environment. Some form of restriction on immigration now seems necessary. When the borders were open, the US was a largely unpopulated country with incredible potential and too little manpower to exploit that. That is simply not the case right now. It's not even that conditions have changed, today we have more immigrants with less time between "waves" then we have ever had, from what I recall reading. Before we'd have waves punctuated by periods of relatively low immigration. Today it's more like a river. Good or not, point is, there are concerns and conditions that exist today that weren't around at the turn of the last century. I'm going to try to introduce some perspective into the whole "New World" discussion through a thought experiment. Let's say you go on a vacation to Europe, and are really excited to get there. You decide you are going to call it New America. Europeans politely remind you that actually all these places already have names and it isn't really new. France, Spain, Italy, etc.. So you come back with some terrible diseases and a few armies, and wipe out 90% of the people currently living in Europe. Entire nations are wiped out, so that no one even remembers what they were called before. After a while the people come to be referred to as "Native New Americans" and no one remembers what the old countries used to be called. In this context, maybe you can sort of understand why calling the Western Hemisphere the "New World" is sort of a touchy subject? I mean, if the European conquerors HADN'T been white supremacists they probably would have tried to preserve the existing cultures including the names of the various nations. Instead they just killed everyone and called it the New World. Well, ignoring the glaring difference between America and your thought experiment, I wouldn't expect it to be a touchy subject for people who have no reason to make it one. I don't know if Native Americans at the time would be so insulted. They had their own nations and tribes, I'm not sure they even had a word for the entire continent (in any of their various languages). Also, as a side note, they are called "Native Americans" not "Native New Americans" which is an admission right at the start that they were here first. Your posts reflect a genuine obliviousness. I'm of the camp that thinks only a personal relationship or old age can reconcile people of your perspective with reality, so I won't waste more of our time. This is definitely one of those "dress" moments where I just don't fully understand how you can't see what is right in front of you and clearly being presented in your posts.
If it's so obvious can you point to someone else that holds your point of view? Is there a history of the phrase somewhere that I haven't read? Otherwise I would say it's your own life experience that causes you to see race everywhere, justified or not. The fact that the Europeans didn't adapt whatever word (or many words) from the multitude of different languages present on the continent doesn't say anything (never mind if a parallel phrase even existed in these other languages). It is, in fact, yet another reason to keep the phrase- it's one that everyone understands. Your inference clearly lacks reason, because you can't even make a coherent argument or present any facts of the case.
The Europeans who came here, by the way, called the various tribes and nations by their names. New World applies to a brand new, unexplored continent, not just to the people on it.
Also, I would like to point out that the phrase "New World" was in the NPR article I posted. You should email them and educate them on it, tell them how racist they are. And those who study monkeys. Them too.
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On August 20 2015 05:49 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 05:33 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 05:06 KwarK wrote:On August 20 2015 04:39 xDaunt wrote:On August 20 2015 04:31 KwarK wrote: The objections being raised against Mexicans today are echoes of the ones raised against Italians in the early 20th Century and Irish in the 19th Century. That they're lazy, criminal, culturally alien and do forth. All Catholic groups too notably. This is not a new 21st Century issue. This has been around as long as WASPs have felt threatened by the unknown. Thoee past groups worked out okay, enriching the American melting pot, the Mexicans are unlikely to bring about the end of America. Also America really is not overcrowded. I have yet to see you make one argument as to why an open borders policy would actually be "good policy" for the US beyond just being an "equitable" policy. Good policy is a subjective definition. If you define "good policy" as increasing the wealth of current American citizens then ending slavery was certainly very bad policy, the American citizens previously got to own other people and benefit from the labour of those slaves. Ending it in the name of making things more "equitable" was certainly bad policy. But there has been a school of thought that dates from the foundation of the United States and continues to this day that freedom and justice have value, even if they get in the way of "fuck you, I got mine". Irish American immigration certainly had its issues, from the monstrousity you call St. Patrick's Day to the birth, life and presidency of G.W. Bush. But without them you also wouldn't have had JFK. Or Reagan for those on the Republican side. We've already got a Cinco de Mayo monstrousity, ending immigration now won't undo that, so I'd argue it'd be good policy to wait for the Mexican JFK. So, two strands of this. Firstly, good policy can be defined as policy that conforms to the stated aims and beliefs of the United States. Allowing immigration certainly meets this first criteria and history has very much favoured America making the "equitable" policy decision over trying to maximise the short term wealth of its current citizens. Secondly, it's good policy because it has a long history of being a successful policy that makes America the great nation it is today. We've been here before, this debate has happened before and very few people would, after seeing how it turned out, still argue your side. You still haven't given any good reasons for letting everyone in as opposed to a measured approach. Are you actually saying that the US can financially absorb the burden of anyone and everyone who comes here? Are you saying that there should be no selection whatsoever? I would advocate for making legal immigration much less discriminatory certainly. People coming into the country should have IDs and be given immigration numbers that the state can keep track of who is within the borders and so that the immigrants themselves can prove their identity. So a system where they simply cross the border unchecked and then disappear into the United States would not be supported by me. A viable legal option (and again, the current immigration system is not viable for most people) that provided immediate right to work, the ability to take a driving theory/practical test for a US driving license, a social security number for paying taxes and so forth and all the other things that you need just to live in the United States would be advocated by me. And, of course, deportation with no chance of reentry for criminals etc. The current legal immigration process in the United States in many ways forces criminality upon people. If you are unable to legally work for over a year because the Green Card system is backed up then you need to be either independently wealthy or get paid under the table. If you can't get a driving license because the DMV won't work with you (and the New Mexico DMV asked me to get an authorized (they have a list of translators who can stamp it for the state) translation of my British driving license) you better have a lot of money for Uber or you'll end up driving without a license. And fuck getting a job without a car in many cities.
This sound really ideal to me as far as immigration is concerned. I'm friends with a lot of people who aren't citizens and hearing about the hurdles they have to go for to get their green cards seems nightmarish, it'd be really nice if the process was less grueling, and if its less grueling theres less incentive to sneak in illegally, and if people are here legally they're far easier to keep track of.
I can't imagine the irritation of trying to find a job to get working towards a green card, from what I've heard its a huge pain considering most companies don't really seem to want to deal with the paperwork involved with sponsoring someone so its even harder to get a job.
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All this talk about immigrants being entitled and just wanting to grab from the country is fucking hilarious. My father owned his own business in roofing and construction and I was around enough to see a lot and have talked with him about it. Guess what, Hispanics work harder and for less money than most others and they are more efficient in general. They aren't the ones who think they should be paid more while doing less work and being less productive because they are in some way entitled to it. And that is the case pretty much across the board as I see it. Immigrants want to come be a part of the dream, they want to work hard and get the benefits, not come over here and take advantage of us. More than that, look at what happened in the economies of southern states when they tightened their laws and treatment of Hispanics, especially in agriculture. Farmers were/are begging for some more reasonable approaches that don't drive out the Hispanics because they can't find anyone to do the work as efficiently as they were willing to do it. Again, they work harder and for less and don't complain because, contrary to what some people would have you believe, they aren't entitled assholes who think these jobs are beneath them like some 'natural born 'muricans'.
But I guess the segments of the population who are spouting this shit always need someone to demonize.
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Indeed. Who will do the dirty jobs that nobody wants to do. Who wants to stand in the sun in 90 degree weather picking fruits and breaking their hands and backs. Who will work in the facto- oh wait silly me we exported all of those. A silly video game like Bioshock explained it well "All of these suckers came into Rapture expecting to be the next famous/rich person, too bad someone still had to scrub the toilets." Course that quote is full of shit, it was the game villian's monologue, but the point stands that dirty jobs and grunt work are needed to sustain our industry.
FFS I work at a warehouse, and it is usually the younger, born in America generation that are being fired, the lazy shits. They don't want to do the work, they don't take it seriously, they take all their days off and then wonder why their checks are so low or they got fired. The people who recently immigrated here were the ones working the hardest. Even a capitalist country needs the lowest cogs to keep working. Every job has a function, no matter how minute or asinine it can be. Yea, that's common sense Reaper. I know it is, but people seem to ignore it for some reason.
I like the mentality of my parents. "Mom, Dad, were you ever depressed when you moved to the US?"
"Son, we were too busy finding a way to survive, we had no time to be depressed."
And of course, there are people gaming the system. But that also is true of people born here. Not an easy solution, by all means, which is why it feels like a plague in this thread every time people start discussing these topics.
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Last two posts are on point.
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Clinton could be in serious trouble and her answer just shows her egotism.
For now, federal authorities characterize the Justice Department inquiry into Hillary Clinton's private email server as a security situation: a simple matter of finding out whether classified information leaked out during her tenure as secretary of state, and where it went.
Except, former government officials said, that's not going to be so simple.
"I think that the FBI will be moving with all deliberate speed to determine whether there were serious breaches of national security here," said Ron Hosko, who used to lead the FBI's criminal investigative division.
He said agents will direct their questions not just at Clinton, but also her close associates at the State Department and beyond.
"I would want to know how did this occur to begin with, who knew, who approved," Hosko said.
Authorities are asking whether Clinton or her aides mishandled secrets about the Benghazi attacks and other subjects by corresponding about them in emails.
For her part, Clinton said she did not use that email account to send or receive anything marked classified.
"Whether it was a personal account or a government account, I did not send classified material, and I did not receive any material that was marked or designated classified which is the way you know whether something is," she said Tuesday in a question-and-answer session with reporters.
Why is Clinton emphasizing the idea that none of those messages were marked? Because what she knew — her intent — matters a lot under the law. If the Justice Department and FBI inquiry turns into a formal criminal investigation.
Two lawyers familiar with the inquiry told NPR that a formal criminal investigation is under consideration and could happen soon — although they caution that Clinton herself may not be the target.
Source
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On August 20 2015 05:55 Deathstar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2015 04:44 Simberto wrote:On August 20 2015 03:17 Deathstar wrote: Yeah the welfare state needs to get cut down hard. That's how I see it. We're not going to actually get rid of these illegals, even if we want to, but it looks like a good portion of "Americans" want an open border. What you have in the US is not a welfare state in the slightest. Also, the idea that "immigrants come to leech of our welfare money" is pretty much an urban legend to all my knowledge. They just want to live in a country that is less shit than the one they come from (can you really blame them for that?), and rather often end up working more for less money than the native citizens.
Compared to the third world countries these illegals come from, US is a welfare state. The illegals know this, and the illegals know they won't be punished for forcing their way into the country, and so they come in swarms. To your bolded, everyone wants to improve their lives. Illegals are nothing special. What you're saying is that the US is up for grabs by every poor person in the world. A porous border with guaranteed entitlements for everyone. Yeah I don't think so.
Once again, you have this idea that entitled immigrants "grab" something from you. Do you mind explaining what that something is?
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See I don't even know about this idea that people are 'gaming the system'. I mean sure some people are, there is no doubt there. Maybe there are more people doing it now than before, that I don't know. But when we have safety nets in place, and then we go through one of the worst financial and economic crisis' in recent memory you have to expect that more people are going to have to rely on these programs. I mean, we funded two wars without raising taxes and went through the crisis', you should kind of expect that some people are gonna fall and need the net to catch them, that's the fucking purpose of it. Now, as I see it (coming from an admittedly uninformed position, I'm just speaking broadly and generally), the best thing to fix this problem of people having to rely on these safety nets would be to build the economy and have an environment where decent jobs are readily available. That will do the best good. Our society has already decided that we need to help those who need the help, that argument is over. The question now is how do we keep people from needing these safety nets, how do we get people out of the net who are there, and how do we keep people from abusing it. The discussion should not be 'omg people are in the safety nets cut the lines and drop the net into the abyss'.
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I'm pro-"open borders" since I don't recognize the legitimacy of these imaginary borders (State) in the first place. It should be up to property owners to decide on issues of residency, employment, etc. However, those who are pro-open border and pro-welfare state are delusional. You can't have a sustainable functioning social welfare state, and be open borders, so eventually one of your interests are going to destroy your other. You people are going to have to decide eventually which matters more to you, because the strain of open borders on the welfare state WILL lead to a majority of the population becoming amicable to the dissolution of either open borders or the welfare state. They simply cannot co-exist. I can't wait for that day to arrive, it'll be joyous to watch the cognitive dissonance crumble to reality.
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United States42802 Posts
On August 20 2015 06:56 Wegandi wrote: I'm pro-"open borders" since I don't recognize the legitimacy of these imaginary borders (State) in the first place. It should be up to property owners to decide on issues of residency, employment, etc. However, those who are pro-open border and pro-welfare state are delusional. You can't have a sustainable functioning social welfare state, and be open borders, so eventually one of your interests are going to destroy your other. You people are going to have to decide eventually which matters more to you, because the strain of open borders on the welfare state WILL lead to a majority of the population becoming amicable to the dissolution of either open borders or the welfare state. They simply cannot co-exist. I can't wait for that day to arrive, it'll be joyous to watch the cognitive dissonance crumble to reality. One of the conditions of my legal immigration into the United States was that I had a sponsor affirm that should I present any costs to the government in the form of welfare etc they would reimburse them. And yet I still pay my taxes. I am a net contributor and could not be a burden.
The welfare state is a safety net, economic migrants are not coming to the United States for dependency, they are coming for opportunity.
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