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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1812

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
April 04 2015 18:47 GMT
#36221
Ferguson was pretty much running a debtor prison system to fund their municipality. Everything that has come out of that place has been super fucked up, and I have no doubt it is common in other parts of the country.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
April 04 2015 18:58 GMT
#36222
On April 05 2015 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 01:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:32 Simberto wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:57 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:43 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:37 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:35 cLutZ wrote:
Just so long as you understand that that involves people being sent to jail or killed for disagreeing with you.

No it doesn't? You can't go to jail in a civil case and not one is going to die because of a civil case. You are just wrong.


You still haven't explained the method of retrieving the money or shutting down the pizzeria that doesn't involve guns.

You really don't understand how law works, so I am going to stop responding to your increasingly foolish comments.


No, YOU don't understand how the law works. Every law is enforced, in the end, by the threat of imprisonment carried out by a police force. Thus, you should understand that you are deciding between that and the other social evil you are outlawing.

In civil law, for instance, a contract is you consenting to have the courts adjudicate disputes between the two parties in this manner, or in tort law we have determined that this is a better result than allowing people to go around injuring people without making financial remissions.


This is such a silly argument.

One could make that exact same point over, for example, parking tickets.

"You have to choose what is worse, people parking in some mildly inconvenient place, or people getting jailed over parking in some mildly inconvenient place"

Equating any sentence to a prison sentence just because if you do not comply with that sentence, you might eventually (After a REALLY long time of not complying, and i am not sure if that even happens) go to prison is just plain silly. A fine is not a prison sentence. A court order to do x is not a prison sentence.


Well, in fairness in places like Ferguson citizens who were/are actually trying to pay their tickets were/are being thrown in jail . So it's not quite as ridiculous as it should be. Somehow most of the defenders of the constitution are practically silent about the bevy of constitutional violations involved in those areas though.


Do or do not, there is no try.

Right, because everyone has the money to pay tickets. Or you the punishing monthly payments from debt collections if they cant..

There is very much such a thing as trying to pay tickets, Yoda or not.

I don't know how a court is going to give you an A for effort. If you're required to pay the ticket, and you don't, I'm not sure how you expect the system to react.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-04 19:23:50
April 04 2015 19:23 GMT
#36223
I think he'd expect the system to follow the applicable law. Or just being just and decent; ferguson failed to do either iirc.

also, the yoda quote really isn't applicable, as systems do take into account whether you're trying.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22103 Posts
April 04 2015 19:48 GMT
#36224
On April 05 2015 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 05 2015 01:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:32 Simberto wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:57 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:43 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:37 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:35 cLutZ wrote:
Just so long as you understand that that involves people being sent to jail or killed for disagreeing with you.

No it doesn't? You can't go to jail in a civil case and not one is going to die because of a civil case. You are just wrong.


You still haven't explained the method of retrieving the money or shutting down the pizzeria that doesn't involve guns.

You really don't understand how law works, so I am going to stop responding to your increasingly foolish comments.


No, YOU don't understand how the law works. Every law is enforced, in the end, by the threat of imprisonment carried out by a police force. Thus, you should understand that you are deciding between that and the other social evil you are outlawing.

In civil law, for instance, a contract is you consenting to have the courts adjudicate disputes between the two parties in this manner, or in tort law we have determined that this is a better result than allowing people to go around injuring people without making financial remissions.


This is such a silly argument.

One could make that exact same point over, for example, parking tickets.

"You have to choose what is worse, people parking in some mildly inconvenient place, or people getting jailed over parking in some mildly inconvenient place"

Equating any sentence to a prison sentence just because if you do not comply with that sentence, you might eventually (After a REALLY long time of not complying, and i am not sure if that even happens) go to prison is just plain silly. A fine is not a prison sentence. A court order to do x is not a prison sentence.


Well, in fairness in places like Ferguson citizens who were/are actually trying to pay their tickets were/are being thrown in jail . So it's not quite as ridiculous as it should be. Somehow most of the defenders of the constitution are practically silent about the bevy of constitutional violations involved in those areas though.


Do or do not, there is no try.

Right, because everyone has the money to pay tickets. Or you the punishing monthly payments from debt collections if they cant..

There is very much such a thing as trying to pay tickets, Yoda or not.

I don't know how a court is going to give you an A for effort. If you're required to pay the ticket, and you don't, I'm not sure how you expect the system to react.

What I expect would be that if someone doesn't have the money to pay they can get a sensible payment plan that lets them slowly pay the fine without being bled dry/imprisoned.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23661 Posts
April 04 2015 20:34 GMT
#36225
On April 05 2015 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 05 2015 01:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:32 Simberto wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:57 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:43 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:37 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:35 cLutZ wrote:
Just so long as you understand that that involves people being sent to jail or killed for disagreeing with you.

No it doesn't? You can't go to jail in a civil case and not one is going to die because of a civil case. You are just wrong.


You still haven't explained the method of retrieving the money or shutting down the pizzeria that doesn't involve guns.

You really don't understand how law works, so I am going to stop responding to your increasingly foolish comments.


No, YOU don't understand how the law works. Every law is enforced, in the end, by the threat of imprisonment carried out by a police force. Thus, you should understand that you are deciding between that and the other social evil you are outlawing.

In civil law, for instance, a contract is you consenting to have the courts adjudicate disputes between the two parties in this manner, or in tort law we have determined that this is a better result than allowing people to go around injuring people without making financial remissions.


This is such a silly argument.

One could make that exact same point over, for example, parking tickets.

"You have to choose what is worse, people parking in some mildly inconvenient place, or people getting jailed over parking in some mildly inconvenient place"

Equating any sentence to a prison sentence just because if you do not comply with that sentence, you might eventually (After a REALLY long time of not complying, and i am not sure if that even happens) go to prison is just plain silly. A fine is not a prison sentence. A court order to do x is not a prison sentence.


Well, in fairness in places like Ferguson citizens who were/are actually trying to pay their tickets were/are being thrown in jail . So it's not quite as ridiculous as it should be. Somehow most of the defenders of the constitution are practically silent about the bevy of constitutional violations involved in those areas though.


Do or do not, there is no try.

Right, because everyone has the money to pay tickets. Or you the punishing monthly payments from debt collections if they cant..

There is very much such a thing as trying to pay tickets, Yoda or not.

I don't know how a court is going to give you an A for effort. If you're required to pay the ticket, and you don't, I'm not sure how you expect the system to react.


Maybe the system could notice the ridiculous and criminal nature of the police's/judges actions? You know without having to have protests and riots to draw attention to something that's been happening for years?

Or you could just defend a corrupt, criminal, enterprise, strong arming citizens and disregarding the constitution AKA FPD.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
April 04 2015 21:01 GMT
#36226
On April 05 2015 04:48 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 05 2015 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 05 2015 01:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:32 Simberto wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:57 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:43 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:37 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
No it doesn't? You can't go to jail in a civil case and not one is going to die because of a civil case. You are just wrong.


You still haven't explained the method of retrieving the money or shutting down the pizzeria that doesn't involve guns.

You really don't understand how law works, so I am going to stop responding to your increasingly foolish comments.


No, YOU don't understand how the law works. Every law is enforced, in the end, by the threat of imprisonment carried out by a police force. Thus, you should understand that you are deciding between that and the other social evil you are outlawing.

In civil law, for instance, a contract is you consenting to have the courts adjudicate disputes between the two parties in this manner, or in tort law we have determined that this is a better result than allowing people to go around injuring people without making financial remissions.


This is such a silly argument.

One could make that exact same point over, for example, parking tickets.

"You have to choose what is worse, people parking in some mildly inconvenient place, or people getting jailed over parking in some mildly inconvenient place"

Equating any sentence to a prison sentence just because if you do not comply with that sentence, you might eventually (After a REALLY long time of not complying, and i am not sure if that even happens) go to prison is just plain silly. A fine is not a prison sentence. A court order to do x is not a prison sentence.


Well, in fairness in places like Ferguson citizens who were/are actually trying to pay their tickets were/are being thrown in jail . So it's not quite as ridiculous as it should be. Somehow most of the defenders of the constitution are practically silent about the bevy of constitutional violations involved in those areas though.


Do or do not, there is no try.

Right, because everyone has the money to pay tickets. Or you the punishing monthly payments from debt collections if they cant..

There is very much such a thing as trying to pay tickets, Yoda or not.

I don't know how a court is going to give you an A for effort. If you're required to pay the ticket, and you don't, I'm not sure how you expect the system to react.

What I expect would be that if someone doesn't have the money to pay they can get a sensible payment plan that lets them slowly pay the fine without being bled dry/imprisoned.

If it's a large fine that would be good. I don't know what's currently available for that. I imagine you'd still have to show up to work something like that out.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
April 04 2015 21:31 GMT
#36227
John Oliver did a segment on this in a recent show jonny. Stealthblue might have even posted it. Did you see it?
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
April 04 2015 21:51 GMT
#36228
On April 05 2015 06:31 IgnE wrote:
John Oliver did a segment on this in a recent show jonny. Stealthblue might have even posted it. Did you see it?

No, and I'm not particularly interested in news entertainment on the subject.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 04 2015 22:32 GMT
#36229
On April 05 2015 05:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 03:58 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 05 2015 01:24 Gorsameth wrote:
On April 05 2015 01:21 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:49 GreenHorizons wrote:
On April 04 2015 18:32 Simberto wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:57 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:47 Plansix wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:43 cLutZ wrote:
On April 04 2015 09:37 Plansix wrote:
[quote]
No it doesn't? You can't go to jail in a civil case and not one is going to die because of a civil case. You are just wrong.


You still haven't explained the method of retrieving the money or shutting down the pizzeria that doesn't involve guns.

You really don't understand how law works, so I am going to stop responding to your increasingly foolish comments.


No, YOU don't understand how the law works. Every law is enforced, in the end, by the threat of imprisonment carried out by a police force. Thus, you should understand that you are deciding between that and the other social evil you are outlawing.

In civil law, for instance, a contract is you consenting to have the courts adjudicate disputes between the two parties in this manner, or in tort law we have determined that this is a better result than allowing people to go around injuring people without making financial remissions.


This is such a silly argument.

One could make that exact same point over, for example, parking tickets.

"You have to choose what is worse, people parking in some mildly inconvenient place, or people getting jailed over parking in some mildly inconvenient place"

Equating any sentence to a prison sentence just because if you do not comply with that sentence, you might eventually (After a REALLY long time of not complying, and i am not sure if that even happens) go to prison is just plain silly. A fine is not a prison sentence. A court order to do x is not a prison sentence.


Well, in fairness in places like Ferguson citizens who were/are actually trying to pay their tickets were/are being thrown in jail . So it's not quite as ridiculous as it should be. Somehow most of the defenders of the constitution are practically silent about the bevy of constitutional violations involved in those areas though.


Do or do not, there is no try.

Right, because everyone has the money to pay tickets. Or you the punishing monthly payments from debt collections if they cant..

There is very much such a thing as trying to pay tickets, Yoda or not.

I don't know how a court is going to give you an A for effort. If you're required to pay the ticket, and you don't, I'm not sure how you expect the system to react.


Maybe the system could notice the ridiculous and criminal nature of the police's/judges actions? You know without having to have protests and riots to draw attention to something that's been happening for years?

Or you could just defend a corrupt, criminal, enterprise, strong arming citizens and disregarding the constitution AKA FPD.

Just from my POV. Ferguson is a natural outgrowth of large government, corruption, and the elevation of the state over the individual. People are always going to dislike taxes, but government officials feel entitled to revenues, plus police departments are almost universally over equipped and over staffed. Like I said, natural outgrowth.
Freeeeeeedom
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
April 04 2015 22:39 GMT
#36230
that's ridiculous.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 02:33:58
April 05 2015 02:33 GMT
#36231
EDIT: Lol wrong thread/window
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 03:40:28
April 05 2015 03:40 GMT
#36232
WASHINGTON -- The indictment of Sen. Bob Menendez (D-N.J.) on public corruption charges is the first bribery case involving the use of corporate political spending to support a candidate since the Supreme Court’s 2010 Citizens United decision allowed corporations to do just that.

Justice Anthony Kennedy declared in the 5-4 majority opinion that corporations should be free to spend unlimited sums on independent political activities since “independent expenditures, including those made by corporations, do not give rise to corruption or the appearance of corruption.” Those making independent expenditures “may have influence over or access to elected officials,” but that “does not mean those officials are corrupt,” Kennedy wrote.

The Department of Justice begs to differ. Menendez’s indictment on Wednesday specifically ties two $300,000 contributions from Dr. Salomon Melgen’s Vitreo-Retinal Consultants to an officially independent super PAC -- donations that were earmarked for Menendez’s 2012 re-election effort -- to actions that the senator took on behalf of Melgen’s business interests.

This is exactly the kind of behavior that Kennedy could not fathom happening.

The reality, as many warned after the Supreme Court’s ruling, is that most of the political spending unleashed by Citizens United is not independent. It abides by the narrow guidelines set out by the Federal Election Commission, but as the Menendez indictment and many other examples show, these actually allow much dependence.

Senate Majority PAC, the super PAC at the center of this scandal, is a prime example. The group was set up by top former aides to Sen. Harry Reid (D-Nev.), then the Senate majority leader, to help maintain a Democratic Senate majority, and Reid has attended dozens of donor events and fundraisers for the group. It is, in essence, an extension of his obligation as a political leader to protect or expand his party’s power.

The former aides who decamped to the super PAC or are otherwise tied to it remain in contact with Reid without violating the relatively loose rules on independence. Campaign donors and lobbyists operate as if contributing to Senate Majority PAC is just another piece of the influence-peddling puzzle. The Huffington Post has documented multiple super PACs run by close allies of congressional leaders that are fueled by contributions raised by lobbyists from clients seeking legislative action.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 05 2015 03:58 GMT
#36233
Isn't this exactly the fallback mechanism that Kennedy said was Constitutionally allowable, and wasn't ridiculously overbroad?
Freeeeeeedom
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 04:32:43
April 05 2015 04:10 GMT
#36234
It sounds like the supreme court made the decision stupidly. I mean, I saw what Stephen Colbert did, and if that was indeed how the law works since that ruling, then that's obviously stupid.

If I feel bored sometime I'll look up the decision more carefully to really think about whether they got it wrong or not.

We need to cut down on the influence of money in politics.


reminds me, there was a nice study comparing elected vs appointed judges which found better results from appointed, but I can't find the one I'm looking for.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
April 05 2015 04:39 GMT
#36235
The old version of the law was untenable. Citizens United is a case about a documentary. A documentary that the FEC tried to ban. Plus, the whole part about the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, ABC, MSNBC, Fox, etc all being corporations.
Freeeeeeedom
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-04-05 05:01:46
April 05 2015 04:59 GMT
#36236
San Francisco doesn't need a months-long DOJ investigation to make a run at Ferguson:

The San Francisco police chief wants eight of his officers fired in the wake of a scandal involving racist and homophobic text messages.

Chief Greg Suhr held a news conference Friday afternoon for about an hour. He announced in light of the scandal he’ll be randomly selecting officers to check to see if they’ve missed any red flags in their background checks.

“It just makes me sick to even talk about it,” Suhr said.

Suhr told reporters that the eight officers, including a captain, who were caught exchanging the inappropriate texts do not belong in his department.

“I have suspended them and they have been referred to the police commission with the recommendation of only termination,” he said.

In all, 14 officers were reprimanded for their actions.

Suhr said two other officers engaged in the text messages, but to a lesser degree and their messages were deemed less inflammatory. These two officers have been reassigned to non-public contact positions. Their cases will go before the Police Commission, which can discipline them up to termination.

The remaining four officers violated public policy and face discipline by the chief, which could involve being suspend for up to 10 days.

The texts came to light last month during a federal bail hearing for another officer looking to appeal his public corruption conviction.

Suhr wouldn’t directly answer whether these texts were indicative of a culture of racism in the department.

Unfortunately, CBS doesn't publish any samples of the kinds of things these cops were saying to each other and it is notable that these were texts that might have been on their personal phones (and thus in a private capacity), as opposed to Ferguson where people were using their official work e-mails to send racist jokes.

I imagine most cops talk to each other like on the Wire, where they do make casual and flippant jokes about race and homosexuality, but I wouldn't say those cops are racists and homophobes. The article makes it seem like it goes deeper than that but it's impossible to know without samples.

EDIT: I should note that this comes as SFPD is defending itself from allegations of public corruption and mishandled evidence, which might also run quite deep, and this might have been a pretense to throw out some of the more abusive cops before the DOJ comes in.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23661 Posts
April 05 2015 05:05 GMT
#36237
On April 05 2015 13:59 coverpunch wrote:
San Francisco doesn't need a months-long DOJ investigation to make a run at Ferguson:

Show nested quote +
The San Francisco police chief wants eight of his officers fired in the wake of a scandal involving racist and homophobic text messages.

Chief Greg Suhr held a news conference Friday afternoon for about an hour. He announced in light of the scandal he’ll be randomly selecting officers to check to see if they’ve missed any red flags in their background checks.

“It just makes me sick to even talk about it,” Suhr said.

Suhr told reporters that the eight officers, including a captain, who were caught exchanging the inappropriate texts do not belong in his department.

“I have suspended them and they have been referred to the police commission with the recommendation of only termination,” he said.

In all, 14 officers were reprimanded for their actions.

Suhr said two other officers engaged in the text messages, but to a lesser degree and their messages were deemed less inflammatory. These two officers have been reassigned to non-public contact positions. Their cases will go before the Police Commission, which can discipline them up to termination.

The remaining four officers violated public policy and face discipline by the chief, which could involve being suspend for up to 10 days.

The texts came to light last month during a federal bail hearing for another officer looking to appeal his public corruption conviction.

Suhr wouldn’t directly answer whether these texts were indicative of a culture of racism in the department.

Unfortunately, CBS doesn't publish any samples of the kinds of things these cops were saying to each other and it is notable that these were texts that might have been on their personal phones (and thus in a private capacity), as opposed to Ferguson where people were using their official work e-mails to send racist jokes.

I imagine most cops talk to each other like on the Wire, where they do make casual and flippant jokes about race and homosexuality, but I wouldn't say those cops are racists and homophobes. The article makes it seem like it goes deeper than that but it's impossible to know without samples.

EDIT: I should note that this comes as SFPD is defending itself from allegations of public corruption and mishandled evidence, which might also run quite deep, and this might have been a pretense to throw out some of the more abusive cops before the DOJ comes in.



I'm sure the degree and focus varies by department, but is there still any question this is obviously a nationwide problem?
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
April 05 2015 05:50 GMT
#36238
On April 05 2015 06:51 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2015 06:31 IgnE wrote:
John Oliver did a segment on this in a recent show jonny. Stealthblue might have even posted it. Did you see it?

No, and I'm not particularly interested in news entertainment on the subject.


I think of it more as news with a conscience.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
April 05 2015 09:03 GMT
#36239
For posterity's sake, Gawker has more about racist remarks by SF cops. I won't post them because they're bad and would just soil the discourse on this forum (which tells you they're THAT bad).

For their part, the cops are insisting these are worst excerpts from years' worth of banter on private text messages with close friends and colleagues. They say they're not racist and these jokes are taken out of context. Possibly also frightening that the cops being released are all decorated veterans with more than a decade's worth of service each.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
April 05 2015 09:13 GMT
#36240
the amount of bad spelling and grammer somehow makes me doubt that these are bright individuals engaging in burning satirical jokes, it looks more like dimwits elevating themselfs by degrading others.

and that to a shocking degree.
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