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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
heliusx
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States2306 Posts
January 05 2015 17:10 GMT
#31221
On January 06 2015 01:33 KlaCkoN wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 01:20 heliusx wrote:
On January 06 2015 01:12 Velr wrote:
Heliusx.. Its simple:

Did you achieve your Wargoal? Yes/No.
No you didn't. So was the war succesfull/won? Nope.

No one is arguing the potency of the US army when it comes to actual combat... But the success of its Wars isn't measured by how many 2nd World countries it can bomb back into the 3d World, at least not if that wasn't your declared goal.


The goal was to remove the WMD that didn't exist. So I guess by your definiton of winning a war we won? Mission accomplished! Gosh you're debating if a war was won and you don't even know the mission.

I doubt the US military spent 10 years, 4000 lives and 2 trillion dollars looking for non-existing WMDs.
Whatever they _were_ trying to achieve, I doubt they were successful - therefore I consider the operation a failure. "The war lost" if you will.

Well that's exactly what the missions was and why we went to war. After the regime was toppled we became an occupying force with the intention of nation building. So yes the international community did fail its mission. The us military did not. Also I'm not interested in playing semantics about what is war and victory. I know very well what war is.
dude bro.
KlaCkoN
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Sweden1661 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 17:14:55
January 05 2015 17:12 GMT
#31222
Considering something as cruel as war as an legitimate tool to achieve these goals is nothing but wishful thinking. Exactly this kind of reasoning has been used to justify wars, with the iraq war as an recent example.
It glorifies war as an useful way to achieve democracy, freedom and wealth.



I never said I considered it legitimate. I consider killing in the name of political goals reprehensible, humanity at its very worst. But my morals doesn't change the fact that war IS used as a political tool - and in the case of Iraq it failed.
"Voice or no voice the people can always be brought to the bidding of their leaders ... All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 05 2015 17:14 GMT
#31223
MIAMI (AP) — A judge ruled Monday that same-sex couples can immediately start getting marriage licenses in Miami-Dade County, getting a jump-start on Florida's entry as the 36th state where gay marriages are legal statewide.

Circuit Judge Sarah Zabel lifted a stay on her July ruling that Florida's same-sex marriage ban violates equal protections under the U.S. Constitution.

Miami-Dade County Clerk Harvey Ruvin says he will begin issuing licenses immediately, so the first gay and lesbian weddings could take place Monday afternoon. A gay rights group already lined up two couples to be the first.

Same-sex marriages were expected to begin statewide after midnight Tuesday, when a separate ruling by a federal judge takes effect. U.S. District Judge Robert L. Hinkle clarified on New Year's Day that his ruling would cover all 67 Florida counties.

Florida's same-sex marriage ban was enshrined in the state constitution in 2008 by voters, who approved it by a 60 percent margin. But a series of rulings from judges in Florida — mirroring those in many other states — found the ban discriminatory and a violation of equal treatment and due process rights provided in the 14th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution.

Even with marriage licenses being issued to gays and lesbians in Florida, Attorney General Pam Bondi is trying to sustain the ban by pursuing appeals in state and federal courts. Those cases could cause further turmoil if an appellate court agrees with Bondi's position, that marriage should be defined by each state.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 05 2015 18:15 GMT
#31224
Health Care Fixes Backed by Harvard’s Experts Now Roil Its Faculty

WASHINGTON — For years, Harvard’s experts on health economics and policy have advised presidents and Congress on how to provide health benefits to the nation at a reasonable cost. But those remedies will now be applied to the Harvard faculty, and the professors are in an uproar.

Members of the Faculty of Arts and Sciences, the heart of the 378-year-old university, voted overwhelmingly in November to oppose changes that would require them and thousands of other Harvard employees to pay more for health care. The university says the increases are in part a result of the Obama administration’s Affordable Care Act, which many Harvard professors championed.

+ Show Spoiler +
The faculty vote came too late to stop the cost increases from taking effect this month, and the anger on campus remains focused on questions that are agitating many workplaces: How should the burden of health costs be shared by employers and employees? If employees have to bear more of the cost, will they skimp on medically necessary care, curtail the use of less valuable services, or both?

“Harvard is a microcosm of what’s happening in health care in the country,” said David M. Cutler, a health economist at the university who was an adviser to President Obama’s 2008 campaign. But only up to a point: Professors at Harvard have until now generally avoided the higher expenses that other employers have been passing on to employees. That makes the outrage among the faculty remarkable, Mr. Cutler said, because “Harvard was and remains a very generous employer.”

In Harvard’s health care enrollment guide for 2015, the university said it “must respond to the national trend of rising health care costs, including some driven by health care reform,” otherwise known as the Affordable Care Act. The guide said that Harvard faced “added costs” because of provisions in the health care law that extend coverage for children up to age 26, offer free preventive services like mammograms and colonoscopies and, starting in 2018, add a tax on high-cost insurance, known as the Cadillac tax.

Richard F. Thomas, a Harvard professor of classics and one of the world’s leading authorities on Virgil, called the changes “deplorable, deeply regressive, a sign of the corporatization of the university.”

Mary D. Lewis, a professor who specializes in the history of modern France and has led opposition to the benefit changes, said they were tantamount to a pay cut. “Moreover,” she said, “this pay cut will be timed to come at precisely the moment when you are sick, stressed or facing the challenges of being a new parent.”

The university is adopting standard features of most employer-sponsored health plans: Employees will now pay deductibles and a share of the costs, known as coinsurance, for hospitalization, surgery and certain advanced diagnostic tests. The plan has an annual deductible of $250 per individual and $750 for a family. For a doctor’s office visit, the charge is $20. For most other services, patients will pay 10 percent of the cost until they reach the out-of-pocket limit of $1,500 for an individual and $4,500 for a family.

Previously, Harvard employees paid a portion of insurance premiums and had low out-of-pocket costs when they received care.

Michael E. Chernew, a health economist and the chairman of the university benefits committee, which recommended the new approach, acknowledged that “with these changes, employees will often pay more for care at the point of service.” In part, he said, “that is intended because patient cost-sharing is proven to reduce overall spending.”

The president of Harvard, Drew Gilpin Faust, acknowledged in a letter to the faculty that the changes in health benefits — though based on recommendations from some of the university’s own health policy experts — were “causing distress” and had “generated anxiety” on campus. But she said the changes were necessary because Harvard’s health benefit costs were growing faster than operating revenues or staff salaries and were threatening the budget for other priorities like teaching, research and student aid.

In response, Harvard professors, including mathematicians and microeconomists, have dissected the university’s data and question whether its health costs have been growing as fast as the university says. Some created spreadsheets and contended that the university’s arguments about the growth of employee health costs were misleading. In recent years, national health spending has been growing at an exceptionally slow rate.

In addition, some ideas that looked good to academia in theory are now causing consternation. In 2009, while Congress was considering the health care legislation, Dr. Alan M. Garber — then a Stanford professor and now the provost of Harvard — led a group of economists who sent an open letter to Mr. Obama endorsing cost-control features of the bill. They praised the Cadillac tax as a way to rein in health costs and premiums.

Dr. Garber, a physician and health economist, has been at the center of the current Harvard debate. He approved the changes in benefits, which were recommended by a committee that included university administrators and experts on health policy.

In an interview, Dr. Garber acknowledged that Harvard employees would face greater cost-sharing, but he defended the changes. “Cost-sharing, if done appropriately, can slow the growth of health spending,” he said. “We need to be prepared for the very real possibility that health expenditure growth will take off again.”

But Jerry R. Green, a professor of economics and a former provost who has been on the Harvard faculty for more than four decades, said the new out-of-pocket costs could lead people to defer medical care or diagnostic tests, causing more serious illnesses and costly complications in the future.

“It’s equivalent to taxing the sick,” Professor Green said. “I don’t think there’s any government in the world that would tax the sick.”

Meredith B. Rosenthal, a professor of health economics and policy at the Harvard School of Public Health, said she was puzzled by the outcry. “The changes in Harvard faculty benefits are parallel to changes that all Americans are seeing,” she said. “Indeed, they have come to our front door much later than to others.”

But in her view, there are drawbacks to the Harvard plan and others like it that require consumers to pay a share of health care costs at the time of service. “Consumer cost-sharing is a blunt instrument,” Professor Rosenthal said. “It will save money, but we have strong evidence that when faced with high out-of-pocket costs, consumers make choices that do not appear to be in their best interests in terms of health.”

Harvard’s new plan is far more generous than plans sold on public insurance exchanges under the Affordable Care Act. Harvard says its plan pays 91 percent of the cost of care for a typical consumer, while the most popular plans on the exchanges, known as silver plans, pay 70 percent, on average.

In many states, consumers have complained about health plans that limit their choice of doctors and hospitals. Some Harvard employees have said they will gladly accept a narrower network of health care providers if it lowers their costs. But Harvard’s ability to create such networks is complicated by the fact that some of Boston’s best-known, most expensive hospitals are affiliated with Harvard Medical School. To create a network of high-value providers, Harvard would probably need to exclude some of its own teaching hospitals, or discourage their use.

“Harvard employees want access to everything,” said Dr. Barbara J. McNeil, the head of the health care policy department at Harvard Medical School and a member of the benefits committee. “They don’t want to be restricted in what institutions they can get care from.”

Although out-of-pocket costs over all for a typical Harvard employee are to increase in 2015, administrators said premiums would decline slightly. They noted that the university, which has an endowment valued at more than $36 billion, had an unusual program to provide protection against high out-of-pocket costs for employees earning $95,000 a year or less. Still, professors said the protections did not offset the new financial burdens that would fall on junior faculty and lower-paid staff members.

“It seems that Harvard is trying to save money by shifting costs to sick people,” said Mary C. Waters, a professor of sociology. “I don’t understand why a university with Harvard’s incredible resources would do this. What is the crisis?”
Link

I think this is where a lot of popular opposition to the ACA comes from. For many people employer-provided healthcare has been a sweet deal, and tinkering with that has always been a political mine field. Whether you should honestly blame the ACA for that is debatable, but it certainly makes for a fine whipping boy. Regardless, it's a bit odd that the ACA, modeled after Romneycare, is causing trouble at Harvard, which is in MA.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 18:32:42
January 05 2015 18:32 GMT
#31225
On January 06 2015 02:06 Paljas wrote:
Considering something as cruel as war as an legitimate tool to achieve these goals is nothing but wishful thinking. Exactly this kind of reasoning has been used to justify wars, with the iraq war as an recent example.

It glorifies war as an useful way to achieve democracy, freedom and wealth.

You're living in fairyland if you think war is an illegitimate tool of foreign policy. Foreign policy is as Hobbesian of an enterprise as there is, and war has always been (and always will be) a means through which one culture/society exerts dominance over others. It is easy for us "enlightened" westerners to take the moral high ground on such issues when we're at the top of the food chain, but let's not pretend that our current dominance wasn't established (and in large part maintained) by the aggressive use of force.
Paljas
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany6926 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 19:09:20
January 05 2015 19:09 GMT
#31226
I dont think we disagree, unless you believe that the way the west achieved dominance over many parts of the world was (moraly) legitimate.
The last line of my previous post referred to the loser of the war.
The winner, of course, may be able to gain as much wealth and freedom as he pleases.

As a tool to build a stable nation, as it was tried in Iraq, war remains useless.
Thats was my point and why I agreed with heliusx. That the UAS hasnt managed to build stable nations doesnt mean much about their ability to win wars. The two goals are only connected to legitimate the war, which is why its so silly to claim that the USA didnt win the iraq war.
TL+ Member
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
January 05 2015 19:10 GMT
#31227
If you get caught drinking and driving in Wisconsin, and it's your first offense, you lose your license for nine months. For a hit and run, the punishment is suspension for one year.

But if you don't pay a ticket for a minor driving offense, such as driving with a broken tail light, you can lose your license for two years.

"It's an incredible policy," says John Pawasarat of the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee. It's "a policy of punishing people who can't pay their fines."

The practice – repeated in states across the country – is mostly impacting the poor and creating a spiral of bad consequences.

NPR's recent "Guilty and Charged" investigation found that rising court fines and fees — reaching hundreds or even thousands of dollars per person — often hurt poor people the most.

Pawasarat, who runs the university's Employment and Training Institute and studies Milwaukee's poor neighborhoods, says one of the biggest barriers to getting a job is not having a driver's license.

"Two out of three African-American men in this neighborhood, of working age, don't have a driver's license," he says while walking down Martin Luther King Avenue in Milwaukee. "And are consequently unable to access the jobs that are beyond the bus lines."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
tadL
Profile Joined September 2010
Croatia679 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 20:04:41
January 05 2015 20:00 GMT
#31228
I hope all that are against this are rich as hell or never get really sick. Because if no your country will let you die. And you are betting on this I hope you know it. You bet that you will never get really sick, I would not want to do this. Sorry I don't understand that you even argue about it. Its something good! You had a healthcare system once and it got destroyed for the sake of profit. That greedy people can make more money from you people. And not because its in your best interest.

Imagine a place where you get cancer. lets say you served in your military and they used nuclear munition and did not tell the soldiers to stay away from places where this munition got used (should sound familiar right?). for example a destroyed tank. you come home, you get cancer because you wanted to take a selfi, maybe keep something as a trophy. You can go to your doctor and you will get all the help you want and need. you will get cured and now comes the best. you will not loose your job, not loose your house because you need to pay the bills. all you had to do is pay a small amount that all can get help if they need it.

Or your girl is pregnant and there are complications. you can go to the doctor can get all the help the love of your life needs and the baby and your wife will arrive safe. you do not have to worry about money. your life goes on and you have not to pay a huge credit.

And yes that amuses me. But well you had kind of no chance because of the brainwashing you get since you are born. Healthcare is communist hrhrhrhr ^^

ps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Just out of curiosity. Who can afford to get cancer and heard attack? I can? Can you?


User was temp banned for this post.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
January 05 2015 20:10 GMT
#31229
On January 06 2015 05:00 tadL wrote:
I hope all that are against this are rich as hell or never get really sick. Because if no your country will let you die. And you are betting on this I hope you know it. You bet that you will never get really sick, I would not want to do this. Sorry I don't understand that you even argue about it. Its something good! You had a healthcare system once and it got destroyed for the sake of profit. That greedy people can make more money from you people. And not because its in your best interest.

Imagine a place where you get cancer. lets say you served in your military and they used nuclear munition and did not tell the soldiers to stay away from places where this munition got used (should sound familiar right?). for example a destroyed tank. you come home, you get cancer because you wanted to take a selfi, maybe keep something as a trophy. You can go to your doctor and you will get all the help you want and need. you will get cured and now comes the best. you will not loose your job, not loose your house because you need to pay the bills. all you had to do is pay a small amount that all can get help if they need it.

Or your girl is pregnant and there are complications. you can go to the doctor can get all the help the love of your life needs and the baby and your wife will arrive safe. you do not have to worry about money. your life goes on and you have not to pay a huge credit.

And yes that amuses me. But well you had kind of no chance because of the brainwashing you get since you are born. Healthcare is communist hrhrhrhr ^^

ps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Just out of curiosity. Who can afford to get cancer and heard attack? I can? Can you?

You've bought into the idea that medical care without insurance has to be expensive. It doesn't. Pharmaceutical companies do everything in their power to keep prices high, and they can get away with it because people have insurance. It doesn't matter if none of their patients could afford their drugs because the insurance companies can. Get rid of insurance, and prices will fall. They'll have to because people would be unable to buy them at current prices. Then you need to consider patent law. Pharma companies repeatedly change the formula to their drugs right as the patent is about to expire. They change some non-active ingredients a little, and bam, they have a monopoly on that treatment again for another ~5 years.

Universal Healthcare and/or the ACA just reinforces these problems.
Who called in the fleet?
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 20:17:32
January 05 2015 20:12 GMT
#31230
On January 06 2015 05:00 tadL wrote:
I hope all that are against this are rich as hell or never get really sick. Because if no your country will let you die. And you are betting on this I hope you know it. You bet that you will never get really sick, I would not want to do this. Sorry I don't understand that you even argue about it. Its something good! You had a healthcare system once and it got destroyed for the sake of profit. That greedy people can make more money from you people. And not because its in your best interest.

Imagine a place where you get cancer. lets say you served in your military and they used nuclear munition and did not tell the soldiers to stay away from places where this munition got used (should sound familiar right?). for example a destroyed tank. you come home, you get cancer because you wanted to take a selfi, maybe keep something as a trophy. You can go to your doctor and you will get all the help you want and need. you will get cured and now comes the best. you will not loose your job, not loose your house because you need to pay the bills. all you had to do is pay a small amount that all can get help if they need it.

Or your girl is pregnant and there are complications. you can go to the doctor can get all the help the love of your life needs and the baby and your wife will arrive safe. you do not have to worry about money. your life goes on and you have not to pay a huge credit.


ps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Just out of curiosity. Who can afford to get cancer and heard attack? I can? Can you?

Soldiers are covered by the VA. The elderly are covered by Medicare, the poor by Medicaid. For everyone else, there's private insurance which is largely paid by your employer.

The main problem is that there's a gap - people who do not have a good enough job for good coverage yet not poor enough for Medicaid. For those there's a problem, yet it is not as if they are barred from healthcare. You can always go to the emergency room or find a free clinic. You don't get all the coverage with that, like I said it is a problem, but reality is not the picture you are painting.

One other thing, what's this about the healthcare system being destroyed for profit?

Edit: by main problem I mean regarding coverage. There are still cost issues that exacerbate the coverage issue.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13956 Posts
January 05 2015 20:14 GMT
#31231
On January 06 2015 04:09 Paljas wrote:
I dont think we disagree, unless you believe that the way the west achieved dominance over many parts of the world was (moraly) legitimate.
The last line of my previous post referred to the loser of the war.
The winner, of course, may be able to gain as much wealth and freedom as he pleases.

As a tool to build a stable nation, as it was tried in Iraq, war remains useless.
Thats was my point and why I agreed with heliusx. That the UAS hasnt managed to build stable nations doesnt mean much about their ability to win wars. The two goals are only connected to legitimate the war, which is why its so silly to claim that the USA didnt win the iraq war.

Pretty sure we can count Germany and japan as stable countries that we pretty much built from rubble that we turned said country into. That we assumed that the next countries we go to war with are as culturally advanced isn't a fault.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 05 2015 20:16 GMT
#31232
On January 06 2015 05:10 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 05:00 tadL wrote:
I hope all that are against this are rich as hell or never get really sick. Because if no your country will let you die. And you are betting on this I hope you know it. You bet that you will never get really sick, I would not want to do this. Sorry I don't understand that you even argue about it. Its something good! You had a healthcare system once and it got destroyed for the sake of profit. That greedy people can make more money from you people. And not because its in your best interest.

Imagine a place where you get cancer. lets say you served in your military and they used nuclear munition and did not tell the soldiers to stay away from places where this munition got used (should sound familiar right?). for example a destroyed tank. you come home, you get cancer because you wanted to take a selfi, maybe keep something as a trophy. You can go to your doctor and you will get all the help you want and need. you will get cured and now comes the best. you will not loose your job, not loose your house because you need to pay the bills. all you had to do is pay a small amount that all can get help if they need it.

Or your girl is pregnant and there are complications. you can go to the doctor can get all the help the love of your life needs and the baby and your wife will arrive safe. you do not have to worry about money. your life goes on and you have not to pay a huge credit.

And yes that amuses me. But well you had kind of no chance because of the brainwashing you get since you are born. Healthcare is communist hrhrhrhr ^^

ps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Just out of curiosity. Who can afford to get cancer and heard attack? I can? Can you?

You've bought into the idea that medical care without insurance has to be expensive. It doesn't. Pharmaceutical companies do everything in their power to keep prices high, and they can get away with it because people have insurance. It doesn't matter if none of their patients could afford their drugs because the insurance companies can. Get rid of insurance, and prices will fall. They'll have to because people would be unable to buy them at current prices. Then you need to consider patent law. Pharma companies repeatedly change the formula to their drugs right as the patent is about to expire. They change some non-active ingredients a little, and bam, they have a monopoly on that treatment again for another ~5 years.

Universal Healthcare and/or the ACA just reinforces these problems.

The patent system is imperfect (isn't everything) but it does work pretty well. Most drugs are money-losers and R&D costs need to be financed somehow.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11354 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 20:18:38
January 05 2015 20:17 GMT
#31233
While I believe single-payer healthcare, publically funded, but largely privately delivered to be an ideal system. tadL is completely of line to assume the other side has been brainwashed. Please keep debate to a reasonable level and do not hold the other side in contempt.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 05 2015 20:40 GMT
#31234
On January 06 2015 05:14 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 04:09 Paljas wrote:
I dont think we disagree, unless you believe that the way the west achieved dominance over many parts of the world was (moraly) legitimate.
The last line of my previous post referred to the loser of the war.
The winner, of course, may be able to gain as much wealth and freedom as he pleases.

As a tool to build a stable nation, as it was tried in Iraq, war remains useless.
Thats was my point and why I agreed with heliusx. That the UAS hasnt managed to build stable nations doesnt mean much about their ability to win wars. The two goals are only connected to legitimate the war, which is why its so silly to claim that the USA didnt win the iraq war.

Pretty sure we can count Germany and japan as stable countries that we pretty much built from rubble that we turned said country into. That we assumed that the next countries we go to war with are as culturally advanced isn't a fault.

Not really dog. Both of those countries had a history of functioning governments and societies. The best that can be said for them is that the US occupation was infinitely preferable to the occupation Russians.
Millitron
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States2611 Posts
January 05 2015 20:42 GMT
#31235
On January 06 2015 05:14 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 04:09 Paljas wrote:
I dont think we disagree, unless you believe that the way the west achieved dominance over many parts of the world was (moraly) legitimate.
The last line of my previous post referred to the loser of the war.
The winner, of course, may be able to gain as much wealth and freedom as he pleases.

As a tool to build a stable nation, as it was tried in Iraq, war remains useless.
Thats was my point and why I agreed with heliusx. That the UAS hasnt managed to build stable nations doesnt mean much about their ability to win wars. The two goals are only connected to legitimate the war, which is why its so silly to claim that the USA didnt win the iraq war.

Pretty sure we can count Germany and japan as stable countries that we pretty much built from rubble that we turned said country into. That we assumed that the next countries we go to war with are as culturally advanced isn't a fault.

A few problems with this.

1) we barely paid any attention to the culture of anywhere we've been at war against since WW2. "Culturally advanced" is pretty derogatory, and plainly misleading. Our culture is no better than any other, just different. To assume a capitalist democracy would work for a non-western culture, especially when its imposed by force, is pretty naive and we should've known better.

2) We often tried to enforce these democracies in areas whose borders were established by colonial powers and do not represent the people living there at all. Look at all the in-fighting in Iraq. It's because the British arbitrarily drew borders with no respect to the ethnic and cultural divisions within those borders. And now we're trying to make them get a long and vote together, when they were barely capable of living peacefully together with brutal dictators keeping the peace. How can we expect them to get along with a neutered democracy enforcing the peace when a brutal dictator could barely do it?

3) Germany and Japan both had bigger problems to worry about, i.e. the Soviet Union, and were both culturally united. They couldn't fight us, or amongst themselves because they were too busy worrying about the USSR.
Who called in the fleet?
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23250 Posts
January 05 2015 20:45 GMT
#31236
OKLAHOMA CITY,Okla.-The cold Oklahoma weather has many sporting hoodies outside to help fight the cold, but wearing a hood in a public place could soon be against the law.

The idea of banning hoods is not new to Oklahoma, right now, there is a law banning hoods during crimes that’s been around since the 20’s.

It was originally drafted to help combat crimes from the Klu-Klux-Klan, but people we spoke with say a new amendment of banning hoodies in public could open doors to a bigger problem.

They’re a common closet find, the hoodie.

“I’ve been wearing hoodies since I was a little kid,” Eduar Carreon, a hoodie user said.

Even Kevin Durant is a hoodie fan.

“If somebody is out running, especially in this kind of weather, where it`s cold, drizzly, you might be inclined to wear your hoodie at Lake Hefner,” attorney James Siderias said.

The fine for your fashion crime? $500.

“They might have personal issues for keeping them on; they might have a bad hair day or maybe they have cancer or they’re losing their hair. You just don’t know why,” Tracy Wehagen said.

“I don’t think that solution will work. I just think that will cause a little more tension within the community. It probably will be a reason for cops to mess with more people wearing hoodies,” A.T. said.

The proposal provides exceptions for religious garments, protection from weather, parades, Halloween celebrations and numerous other circumstances.


Source

Government so small it has it's own fashion police

I'm sure this law will break the trend of being disproportionately enforced against poor minorities...
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Doublemint
Profile Joined July 2011
Austria8540 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 21:24:00
January 05 2015 20:59 GMT
#31237
3) Germany and Japan both had bigger problems to worry about, i.e. the Soviet Union, and were both culturally united. They couldn't fight us, or amongst themselves because they were too busy worrying about the USSR.


yeah, hitler (thankfully) made the mistake to not listen to anyone with reason which led to a shitton of blunders and failures after the initial blitzkrieg victories. fighting a war on so many fronts and led by ideology rather than strategy, it's impossible to win. but that's ancient history and one cannot be unhappy about the way things turned out the way they did, considering the alternative(s).

well, other than my grandpa fighting a war he did not want to fight in, and losing both his feet right before he became a POW of the russian army...

//edit: small quoting fail.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-05 21:10:09
January 05 2015 21:07 GMT
#31238
On January 06 2015 05:40 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 05:14 Sermokala wrote:
On January 06 2015 04:09 Paljas wrote:
I dont think we disagree, unless you believe that the way the west achieved dominance over many parts of the world was (moraly) legitimate.
The last line of my previous post referred to the loser of the war.
The winner, of course, may be able to gain as much wealth and freedom as he pleases.

As a tool to build a stable nation, as it was tried in Iraq, war remains useless.
Thats was my point and why I agreed with heliusx. That the UAS hasnt managed to build stable nations doesnt mean much about their ability to win wars. The two goals are only connected to legitimate the war, which is why its so silly to claim that the USA didnt win the iraq war.

Pretty sure we can count Germany and japan as stable countries that we pretty much built from rubble that we turned said country into. That we assumed that the next countries we go to war with are as culturally advanced isn't a fault.

Not really dog. Both of those countries had a history of functioning governments and societies. The best that can be said for them is that the US occupation was infinitely preferable to the occupation Russians.

I think the reason that post-war reconstruction worked after WW2 was that the subject countries were so utterly destroyed that they were completely dependent upon US reconstruction efforts, and thus completely malleable to American aims. Unless you want to count post-Civil War reconstruction, the only other time where we attempted reconstruction in such circumstances was in South Korea. The threat of the Soviets (or other communists) certainly helped, but I wouldn't consider it the controlling the factor.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 05 2015 21:28 GMT
#31239
On January 06 2015 06:07 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 05:40 Sub40APM wrote:
On January 06 2015 05:14 Sermokala wrote:
On January 06 2015 04:09 Paljas wrote:
I dont think we disagree, unless you believe that the way the west achieved dominance over many parts of the world was (moraly) legitimate.
The last line of my previous post referred to the loser of the war.
The winner, of course, may be able to gain as much wealth and freedom as he pleases.

As a tool to build a stable nation, as it was tried in Iraq, war remains useless.
Thats was my point and why I agreed with heliusx. That the UAS hasnt managed to build stable nations doesnt mean much about their ability to win wars. The two goals are only connected to legitimate the war, which is why its so silly to claim that the USA didnt win the iraq war.

Pretty sure we can count Germany and japan as stable countries that we pretty much built from rubble that we turned said country into. That we assumed that the next countries we go to war with are as culturally advanced isn't a fault.

Not really dog. Both of those countries had a history of functioning governments and societies. The best that can be said for them is that the US occupation was infinitely preferable to the occupation Russians.

I think the reason that post-war reconstruction worked after WW2 was that the subject countries were so utterly destroyed that they were completely dependent upon US reconstruction efforts, and thus completely malleable to American aims. Unless you want to count post-Civil War reconstruction, the only other time where we attempted reconstruction in such circumstances was in South Korea. The threat of the Soviets (or other communists) certainly helped, but I wouldn't consider it the controlling the factor.

The Philippines were also completely depended upon US reconstruction efforts, and they still are shit. South Korea in the 1950s was also completely depend on the US but it was the Park reforms in the mid 60s that jumped started their transformation. South Vietnam was completely depended on US funds and so forth.
There were plenty of American puppet regimes that are wholly dependent on the US but a relatively smaller number of them succeeded into transforming themselves into functioning societies.
DetriusXii
Profile Joined June 2007
Canada156 Posts
January 05 2015 21:31 GMT
#31240
On January 06 2015 05:10 Millitron wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 06 2015 05:00 tadL wrote:
I hope all that are against this are rich as hell or never get really sick. Because if no your country will let you die. And you are betting on this I hope you know it. You bet that you will never get really sick, I would not want to do this. Sorry I don't understand that you even argue about it. Its something good! You had a healthcare system once and it got destroyed for the sake of profit. That greedy people can make more money from you people. And not because its in your best interest.

Imagine a place where you get cancer. lets say you served in your military and they used nuclear munition and did not tell the soldiers to stay away from places where this munition got used (should sound familiar right?). for example a destroyed tank. you come home, you get cancer because you wanted to take a selfi, maybe keep something as a trophy. You can go to your doctor and you will get all the help you want and need. you will get cured and now comes the best. you will not loose your job, not loose your house because you need to pay the bills. all you had to do is pay a small amount that all can get help if they need it.

Or your girl is pregnant and there are complications. you can go to the doctor can get all the help the love of your life needs and the baby and your wife will arrive safe. you do not have to worry about money. your life goes on and you have not to pay a huge credit.

And yes that amuses me. But well you had kind of no chance because of the brainwashing you get since you are born. Healthcare is communist hrhrhrhr ^^

ps:
+ Show Spoiler +
Just out of curiosity. Who can afford to get cancer and heard attack? I can? Can you?

You've bought into the idea that medical care without insurance has to be expensive. It doesn't. Pharmaceutical companies do everything in their power to keep prices high, and they can get away with it because people have insurance. It doesn't matter if none of their patients could afford their drugs because the insurance companies can. Get rid of insurance, and prices will fall. They'll have to because people would be unable to buy them at current prices. Then you need to consider patent law. Pharma companies repeatedly change the formula to their drugs right as the patent is about to expire. They change some non-active ingredients a little, and bam, they have a monopoly on that treatment again for another ~5 years.

Universal Healthcare and/or the ACA just reinforces these problems.


First question that I think we should be asking: Danglars, Millitron, and others opposed to ACA and socialized health care plans, can you please tell us if your employer or parents pay for your health care insurance? Are you insured outside of employer coverage?

Now back to the post:

Why do you equate having health insurance with buying drugs? Health insurance also covers the cost of surgery and chemotherapy. A health insurance system is already a free market creation as people are making the rational choice to pool their money to distribute risks. So what you're proposing is that the government step in to tell people that they can't spend their money however they want ie "to pool their money in an insurance system". Would you propose that vehicle insurance, farm crop insurance, life insurance, and other insurances be made illegal to justify the demand to drive down prices?

And universal health care does the opposite of driving down prices. It creates a single payer for the insurance. Doctors in Canada only have to deal with on transaction cost and they don't have to worry about their own debt collectors. And since the government acts as a monopsony for drugs, they can use their purchasing power to drive down prices, similar to Walmart using their monopsony power to drive down prices for the goods they buy.
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