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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11363 Posts
November 19 2014 20:06 GMT
#28781
I hope the rejection of Keystone will push Canada to think more in terms of refinement rather than pumping crude oil for other people to refine. Even now Chevron in Vancouver hasn't been able to get Kinder-Morgan to give priority in selling oil to them to refine. Kinder-Morgan would much rather sell the crude at $20/ barrel, forcing Chevron to bring in oil by train or truck. We'd get far more jobs refining on our own land, even if they keep bringing American engineers over our own.
Moderator"In Trump We Trust," says the Golden Goat of Mars Lago. Have faith and believe! Trump moves in mysterious ways. Like the wind he blows where he pleases...
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-19 20:10:10
November 19 2014 20:08 GMT
#28782
Obama's immigration pre-annoucement sounded like the "executive action" announcement he had after Sandy Hook. And signed the 23 orders that did nothing.

If there was a way to bet the Over/Under on the strength of the immigration executive actions, I'd take the Under.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23268 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-19 20:34:44
November 19 2014 20:29 GMT
#28783
On November 20 2014 05:08 RCMDVA wrote:
Obama's immigration pre-annoucement sounded like the "executive action" announcement he had after Sandy Hook. And signed the 23 orders that did nothing.

If there was a way to bet the Over/Under on the strength of the immigration executive actions, I'd take the Under.


Obama already said all the house has to do is come together on the bi-partisan senate bill. Or just pass something themselves later.

Problem is the ragers from those comments aren't going to let Republicans get away with waiting to do something (about not a whole lot) until the new congress comes in.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
aksfjh
Profile Joined November 2010
United States4853 Posts
November 19 2014 20:35 GMT
#28784
On November 20 2014 05:08 RCMDVA wrote:
Obama's immigration pre-annoucement sounded like the "executive action" announcement he had after Sandy Hook. And signed the 23 orders that did nothing.

If there was a way to bet the Over/Under on the strength of the immigration executive actions, I'd take the Under.

Even if they do nothing, Republicans will still paint it as an outrage, abuse of power, etc.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18831 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-19 21:01:35
November 19 2014 20:57 GMT
#28785
On November 20 2014 03:07 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 02:34 farvacola wrote:
It's easier to see how oil makes money than it is to consider how important stuff like roads are

Frankly, you're not going to find many conservatives objecting to road and other core infrastructure expansion projects. That's something that large numbers of conservatives will almost always fund. It's always liberals -- particularly green groups -- that get in the way.

EDIT: And I like this movement towards privatizing portions of highways and adding toll lanes in exchange for getting private money to maintain and expand the subject road.

This could not be further from the truth in Michigan and Ohio, both of which continuously face state legislatures that push for budget cuts. Michigan spends less money on roads than any other state in the union, and this is directly because of a Republican dominated, incompetent state legislature.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-19 21:28:08
November 19 2014 21:26 GMT
#28786
On November 20 2014 03:07 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 02:34 farvacola wrote:
It's easier to see how oil makes money than it is to consider how important stuff like roads are

Frankly, you're not going to find many conservatives objecting to road and other core infrastructure expansion projects. That's something that large numbers of conservatives will almost always fund. It's always liberals -- particularly green groups -- that get in the way.

EDIT: And I like this movement towards privatizing portions of highways and adding toll lanes in exchange for getting private money to maintain and expand the subject road.

i'm not seeing hte balkanized american politics working to renew the power grid and internet backbone. the internet thing is apparently in google's hands and whatnot but really it should be a govt priority.

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~mansur/papers/mansur_white_pjmaep.pdf
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
November 19 2014 21:42 GMT
#28787
On November 20 2014 05:06 Falling wrote:
I hope the rejection of Keystone will push Canada to think more in terms of refinement rather than pumping crude oil for other people to refine. Even now Chevron in Vancouver hasn't been able to get Kinder-Morgan to give priority in selling oil to them to refine. Kinder-Morgan would much rather sell the crude at $20/ barrel, forcing Chevron to bring in oil by train or truck. We'd get far more jobs refining on our own land, even if they keep bringing American engineers over our own.

why doesnt Canada have its own refineries anyway? Especially in the West. Precious Western oil has to be shipped to the parasites in the East or the Republicans in the South.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
November 19 2014 21:47 GMT
#28788
On November 20 2014 03:07 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 02:34 farvacola wrote:
It's easier to see how oil makes money than it is to consider how important stuff like roads are

Frankly, you're not going to find many conservatives objecting to road and other core infrastructure expansion projects. That's something that large numbers of conservatives will almost always fund. It's always liberals -- particularly green groups -- that get in the way.

EDIT: And I like this movement towards privatizing portions of highways and adding toll lanes in exchange for getting private money to maintain and expand the subject road.

Couple points here.
1) Seems like plenty of Repubican legislatures are fine with starving infra projects on state levels.
2) privatization of roads doesnt seem to be a particularly spectacular success -- the inherent nature of geography makes this area a natural monopoly extravaganza and since users are already paying for these roads via gas taxes what does the extra layer of fleecing add? But I am be willing to be convinced otherwise if you have a concrete example.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 19 2014 22:02 GMT
#28789
On November 20 2014 06:47 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 03:07 xDaunt wrote:
On November 20 2014 02:34 farvacola wrote:
It's easier to see how oil makes money than it is to consider how important stuff like roads are

Frankly, you're not going to find many conservatives objecting to road and other core infrastructure expansion projects. That's something that large numbers of conservatives will almost always fund. It's always liberals -- particularly green groups -- that get in the way.

EDIT: And I like this movement towards privatizing portions of highways and adding toll lanes in exchange for getting private money to maintain and expand the subject road.

Couple points here.
1) Seems like plenty of Repubican legislatures are fine with starving infra projects on state levels.
2) privatization of roads doesnt seem to be a particularly spectacular success -- the inherent nature of geography makes this area a natural monopoly extravaganza and since users are already paying for these roads via gas taxes what does the extra layer of fleecing add? But I am be willing to be convinced otherwise if you have a concrete example.

Gas taxes aren't as efficient as tolls roads for funding a particular road. Also, fuel economy standards have been eating into gas taxes to such an extent that states have been looking for alternatives to them for years. You can certainly argue that toll roads are regressive. However, so long as there is a toll free option, I don't see the problem. I think that the US36 project out here in Colorado is going to be good model for how to do it in the future. In short, a company bought the right to install and operate a toll lane on the highway. However, the company also had to rebuild the highway and many of the overpasses/interchanges as well as assume maintenance obligations on the entire highway. When it's complete, I think that there will be 1 toll lane, 2 non-toll lanes, and a bus lane running in each direction. I don't see any potential monopoly issue there. We'll see how it turns out (it'll be operational next year).
Wolfstan
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada605 Posts
November 19 2014 22:15 GMT
#28790
On November 20 2014 06:42 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 05:06 Falling wrote:
I hope the rejection of Keystone will push Canada to think more in terms of refinement rather than pumping crude oil for other people to refine. Even now Chevron in Vancouver hasn't been able to get Kinder-Morgan to give priority in selling oil to them to refine. Kinder-Morgan would much rather sell the crude at $20/ barrel, forcing Chevron to bring in oil by train or truck. We'd get far more jobs refining on our own land, even if they keep bringing American engineers over our own.

why doesnt Canada have its own refineries anyway? Especially in the West. Precious Western oil has to be shipped to the parasites in the East or the Republicans in the South.


A couple reasons.
It's easier to upgrade existing refineries.
The capital required to build new refining capacity doesn't jive from a risk/reward standpoint, thus it would have to come from public funds as private capital isn't interested.
Distribution is too hard as Canadian consumption can't satisfy refined supply. Gulf of Mexico refineries are much closer to end user.
EG - ROOT - Gambit Gaming
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 19 2014 22:16 GMT
#28791
HELENA, Mont. (AP) — A federal judge in Montana has overturned the state's ban on gay marriage.

U.S. District Judge Brian Morris ruled Wednesday that Montana's constitutional amendment limiting marriage to between a man and a woman violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment to the US Constitution.

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled in September that Idaho and Nevada's bans are unconstitutional. Montana is part of the 9th Circuit, and Morris cited the Circuit Court's opinion in his ruling.

The move comes after four same-sex couples filed a lawsuit in May challenging Montana's gay marriage ban.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-19 23:00:45
November 19 2014 22:48 GMT
#28792
Democrats do seem to have a greater willingness to tax and spend on infrastructure, at least in recent years and at least at a national level. A lot of that willingness goes away once you get into the details and NIMBY-ism and environmental (or what pretends to be) concerns take over, however.

If you want to compare states in terms of infrastructure, CNBC's 'Best States for Business' has an infrastructure category, so that may be a good place to look (link). There's a bit of red and blue states mixed throughout, but Texas and Georgia do share the no.1 spot, while the liberal northeast scrapes the bottom of the barrel (fuck you potholes!!!!).

Edit: I'll also add that 'blue markets' have also been struggling with affordable housing more than red ones (source).
RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
November 19 2014 22:49 GMT
#28793
On November 20 2014 05:35 aksfjh wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 05:08 RCMDVA wrote:
Obama's immigration pre-annoucement sounded like the "executive action" announcement he had after Sandy Hook. And signed the 23 orders that did nothing.

If there was a way to bet the Over/Under on the strength of the immigration executive actions, I'd take the Under.

Even if they do nothing, Republicans will still paint it as an outrage, abuse of power, etc.


Now they are saying the networks aren't going to air the immigration speech.

http://deadline.com/2014/11/obama-us-immigration-primetime-speech-univision-1201289203/

lol, it is interrupting the Latin Grammy's on Univision... which does have more viewers anyway.

They should have embargoed copies of what he is going to announce.

If it was anything significant, they would be airing it. So I'd double down on my Under bet.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-19 23:34:29
November 19 2014 23:30 GMT
#28794
privatization of roads will lead to a lot of land squatting i'm sure.

the basic analysis of why infrastructures suck in some parts of this country is simply entrenched monopoly interests of existing holdings (power grid), or lack of strategic development initiative on the part of local polity (something big cities, and foreign example asian cities/states do a better job recognizing). local politics is just beholden to these entrenched interests, and it's not that much a rep vs dem issue. cable vision is a monster in new york for example.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13969 Posts
November 19 2014 23:47 GMT
#28795
If I remember correctly they let the keystone vote through because of the run off election in Louisiana where the dem candidate wants to prove shes pro oil. Its still up in the air if they'll get a veto proof 67 votes but they'll for sure get more then 60 once the next congress starts up.

Obama getting aggressive on immigration is smart I gotta say. between the heat on obamacare canceling out its successful second year and the lose-lose senerio that he finds himself in with keystone hes gotta get hard in the paint. polls are against him 48-38 but if he doesn't want to be a lame duck his last 2 years hes gotta get this win.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 19 2014 23:48 GMT
#28796
I don't like the idea of privatizing all roads, but I do think that the partial privatization of highways (such as with US36) in heavily populated areas is a good idea.
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
November 20 2014 00:43 GMT
#28797
well yea, privatization of pothole repair is good. but if you are gonna let people own strategic lands and routes it'll not be very pretty pretty easily.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
November 20 2014 02:28 GMT
#28798
Congressional Republicans want to make fighting the Environmental Protection Agency's climate regulations and President Obama's greenhouse gas reduction targets a centerpiece of their agenda over next two years -- now that they have wrested control of the Senate as well as House.

But how will the politics of that look 10 years from now?

Several commentators have suggested that climate change could become the gay marriage issue of the future for the GOP. In other words, demographic changes within the Republican Party itself and in society in general could leave GOP leaders looking badly out of step with their own constituency and scrambling to switch sides.

Over the past decade, support for gay marriage has grown within the Republican Party, especially as young Republicans grew older and swelled the ranks of the party. Opposition to gay marriage -- and the party's support for a slew of state ballot initiatives banning gay marriage -- may have looked mainstream with the Republican Party 10 years ago, but now looks outdated. "The ballot initiative wins masked the rapidly rising tide of gay acceptance fueled by younger generations," wrote Bill Scher of the Campaign for America's Future, who likens the issue to climate change.

Will the climate change issue really follow the same course? To test that theory, we looked more closely at the data from a series of global warming questions asked by the Washington Post-ABC News poll back in June. In particular, that poll asked a nationally representative sample of respondents whether they believed the federal government "should or should not limit the release of greenhouse gases from existing power plants in an effort to reduce global warming?"

People overwhelmingly supported this idea of doing so, with 70 percent in favor.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
November 20 2014 04:19 GMT
#28799
On November 20 2014 07:02 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 20 2014 06:47 Sub40APM wrote:
On November 20 2014 03:07 xDaunt wrote:
On November 20 2014 02:34 farvacola wrote:
It's easier to see how oil makes money than it is to consider how important stuff like roads are

Frankly, you're not going to find many conservatives objecting to road and other core infrastructure expansion projects. That's something that large numbers of conservatives will almost always fund. It's always liberals -- particularly green groups -- that get in the way.

EDIT: And I like this movement towards privatizing portions of highways and adding toll lanes in exchange for getting private money to maintain and expand the subject road.

Couple points here.
1) Seems like plenty of Repubican legislatures are fine with starving infra projects on state levels.
2) privatization of roads doesnt seem to be a particularly spectacular success -- the inherent nature of geography makes this area a natural monopoly extravaganza and since users are already paying for these roads via gas taxes what does the extra layer of fleecing add? But I am be willing to be convinced otherwise if you have a concrete example.

Gas taxes aren't as efficient as tolls roads for funding a particular road. Also, fuel economy standards have been eating into gas taxes to such an extent that states have been looking for alternatives to them for years. You can certainly argue that toll roads are regressive. However, so long as there is a toll free option, I don't see the problem. I think that the US36 project out here in Colorado is going to be good model for how to do it in the future. In short, a company bought the right to install and operate a toll lane on the highway. However, the company also had to rebuild the highway and many of the overpasses/interchanges as well as assume maintenance obligations on the entire highway. When it's complete, I think that there will be 1 toll lane, 2 non-toll lanes, and a bus lane running in each direction. I don't see any potential monopoly issue there. We'll see how it turns out (it'll be operational next year).

Ya that sounds like an interesting test. Just help me understand it, it was a 4 lane road, and they bought the right to basically add an extra lane or was it always an 8 laner? And how long is the lease for? I noticed some of the more egregious-monopolist leases are for pretty insane durations -- 99 years and so on!
I agree that fuel taxes arent perfect but again neither is the sale of monopoly power -- and thats what roads are -- for a prolonged period of time.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 20 2014 04:31 GMT
#28800
On November 20 2014 13:19 Sub40APM wrote:
Ya that sounds like an interesting test. Just help me understand it, it was a 4 lane road, and they bought the right to basically add an extra lane or was it always an 8 laner? And how long is the lease for? I noticed some of the more egregious-monopolist leases are for pretty insane durations -- 99 years and so on!
I agree that fuel taxes arent perfect but again neither is the sale of monopoly power -- and thats what roads are -- for a prolonged period of time.

It was 2 lanes in each direction, with a third HoV lane along part of the road. The final road will be 2 general purpose lanes in each direction, a dedicated bus lane (they're installing a Bus Rapid Transit system for easy commuting along the highway into Denver), and a toll lane, for a total of 4 lanes in each direction. The lease is for 50 years. The private contractor is footing most of the bill for the expansion of the highway and renovation of the overpasses.
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