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RCMDVA
Profile Joined July 2011
United States708 Posts
September 17 2014 11:14 GMT
#25881
Newport News shipbuilding apprentice school.

The only good one I know of in the US in the mid-Atlantic off the top of my head, wish there were more :

http://www.as.edu/
Copymizer
Profile Joined November 2010
Denmark2109 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-17 11:22:11
September 17 2014 11:18 GMT
#25882
Danish school system is abit like the german but more laid back. So you go to basic school from 1-9th grade, after that you'll choose what what higher education you wanna take, which is different kind of gymnasiums that all last 3 years, technical gymnasium, business gymnasium, student gymnasium (has all the basic subjects). and when you're done with that you can choose to go to university and do a bachelor, ofc you can't study anything you want because it depends on what grades you got. many choose to take on an apprenticeship because they easily get tired of school and would rather go work awhile and move out. The fact that school and university is free here and you get welfare money from the gov to study, tends to make people lazy so many will move back and fourth between different education choices etc.

sorry for OT.
~~Yo man ! MBCGame HERO Fighting !! Holy check !
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28928 Posts
September 17 2014 11:26 GMT
#25883
On September 17 2014 20:01 Velr wrote:
Basically every country whiteout a good apprenticeship programm that goes parallel to purely academic education.
France and Ireland come to my mind first (because i know these two), the UK and the US are probably the same.

Sure you can still achieve something whiteout getting a bachelor in these countries. But its way harder than it should be. There are miriads of children/young adults that are just fed up with School at the age of 15-20 and there has to be a way to still let them start a succesfull career whiteout making it unecessary difficult.
There are actually many "children" in switzerland that choose not to go for University and instead make an apprenticeship.


I am a huge fan of apprenticeship programs and I think it's great that 15-16 year olds who are sick of school and can't picture themselves going to university can choose some educational path that provides them with skills that they themselves consider useful and that allow them to find a good job.. We have somewhat of a two-tier system in Norway as well, but with one major difference ; you don't have to choose until you are 15-16.

I think having the separation at an earlier age is basically (academically) beneficial to the kids who remain in the tier 1 system, because the level of education and challenge provided for the 'smarter' kids can be slightly higher and thus the learning output also increases, but it comes with two very serious societal drawbacks imo. 1: I cannot understand how this will not hamper social mobility, and 2: it creates a very real separation / barrier between people who go for apprenticeships vs people who go to university. When the socialization is shared for a longer period of time, lasting relationships can be formed between people from different layers of society.
Moderator
Velr
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Switzerland10990 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-17 11:59:15
September 17 2014 11:51 GMT
#25884
The split in Switzerland has children usually still go to the same School, just into diffrent classes. With only one niveau we would have 3 classes separated due to size, now we have 3 classes separated due to „skill“.

As for the part of getting torn appart due to diffrent career paths. In Switzerland this is not really an issue. Why?
The country is very small. People that go to university often still stay with their parents as much as apprentices do. If i look at my close circle of friends:
4 guys, including me, that did apprenticeships and then „improved“ via diffrent courses/tests they could take whiteout attending any university.
3 guys that went from an apprenticeship to an University of applied science (one went on to ETH Zürich getting a Masters degree).
3 guys that directly went to University.
Everyone aside from one exception still lives at most 30 minutes away from the Village we grew up in (we are 28-31 years old now).


Stratos_speAr
Profile Joined May 2009
United States6959 Posts
September 17 2014 13:57 GMT
#25885
On September 17 2014 20:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2014 20:01 Velr wrote:
Basically every country whiteout a good apprenticeship programm that goes parallel to purely academic education.
France and Ireland come to my mind first (because i know these two), the UK and the US are probably the same.

Sure you can still achieve something whiteout getting a bachelor in these countries. But its way harder than it should be. There are miriads of children/young adults that are just fed up with School at the age of 15-20 and there has to be a way to still let them start a succesfull career whiteout making it unecessary difficult.
There are actually many "children" in switzerland that choose not to go for University and instead make an apprenticeship.


I am a huge fan of apprenticeship programs and I think it's great that 15-16 year olds who are sick of school and can't picture themselves going to university can choose some educational path that provides them with skills that they themselves consider useful and that allow them to find a good job.. We have somewhat of a two-tier system in Norway as well, but with one major difference ; you don't have to choose until you are 15-16.

I think having the separation at an earlier age is basically (academically) beneficial to the kids who remain in the tier 1 system, because the level of education and challenge provided for the 'smarter' kids can be slightly higher and thus the learning output also increases, but it comes with two very serious societal drawbacks imo. 1: I cannot understand how this will not hamper social mobility, and 2: it creates a very real separation / barrier between people who go for apprenticeships vs people who go to university. When the socialization is shared for a longer period of time, lasting relationships can be formed between people from different layers of society.


Social mobility is actually highest in Scandinavia, Germany, and the Low Countries, whereas it's relatively low in places like Britain and the U.S.
A sound mind in a sound body, is a short, but full description of a happy state in this World: he that has these two, has little more to wish for; and he that wants either of them, will be little the better for anything else.
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18876 Posts
September 17 2014 14:32 GMT
#25886
On September 17 2014 22:57 Stratos_speAr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2014 20:26 Liquid`Drone wrote:
On September 17 2014 20:01 Velr wrote:
Basically every country whiteout a good apprenticeship programm that goes parallel to purely academic education.
France and Ireland come to my mind first (because i know these two), the UK and the US are probably the same.

Sure you can still achieve something whiteout getting a bachelor in these countries. But its way harder than it should be. There are miriads of children/young adults that are just fed up with School at the age of 15-20 and there has to be a way to still let them start a succesfull career whiteout making it unecessary difficult.
There are actually many "children" in switzerland that choose not to go for University and instead make an apprenticeship.


I am a huge fan of apprenticeship programs and I think it's great that 15-16 year olds who are sick of school and can't picture themselves going to university can choose some educational path that provides them with skills that they themselves consider useful and that allow them to find a good job.. We have somewhat of a two-tier system in Norway as well, but with one major difference ; you don't have to choose until you are 15-16.

I think having the separation at an earlier age is basically (academically) beneficial to the kids who remain in the tier 1 system, because the level of education and challenge provided for the 'smarter' kids can be slightly higher and thus the learning output also increases, but it comes with two very serious societal drawbacks imo. 1: I cannot understand how this will not hamper social mobility, and 2: it creates a very real separation / barrier between people who go for apprenticeships vs people who go to university. When the socialization is shared for a longer period of time, lasting relationships can be formed between people from different layers of society.


Social mobility is actually highest in Scandinavia, Germany, and the Low Countries, whereas it's relatively low in places like Britain and the U.S.

This fact is complicated by the notion that the upper and lower thresholds for social mobility in much of Europe are significantly closer together than in most of the rest of the world; this is a natural consequence of a socialized government and society. That the measures for social mobility are nevertheless higher in much of Europe speaks even more to the idea that the US is lagging behind.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-17 15:28:44
September 17 2014 15:21 GMT
#25887
I think the higher social mobility here has indeed more to do with the fact that "shorter ladders are easier to climb". In theory I guess the US system is more egalitarian, because splitting up children after only four to six years of schools is just very early in my opinion.

Also it isn't really as 'caste-system' like as it sounds because as Velr is pointing out everything is basically free and if you chose to go to college after you've gotten an apprenticeship or worked for a few years that's no problem. If I'd had to guess I'd say that probably at least one quarter or one third of the people in my bachelors program where like 23-25 or even older. Still most people will probably 'stay on their path' but going to university after people have finished an apprenticeship has become more popular over the time.

Another benefit is that it also works the other way around. Many companies love to hire college dropouts for apprenticeships. So you're not doomed to work at Starbucks for the rest of your live which is nice I think.

Looking at a few guys from the US I've kept contact with over the years it looks like you're either finishing your bachelors when you're twenty or you're pretty much screwed. Some of them are even getting married, while most people here still live with their parents in their mid twenties, it's really weird.
WhiteDog
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
France8650 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-17 16:45:25
September 17 2014 16:44 GMT
#25888
On September 18 2014 00:21 Nyxisto wrote:
I think the higher social mobility here has indeed more to do with the fact that "shorter ladders are easier to climb". In theory I guess the US system is more egalitarian, because splitting up children after only four to six years of schools is just very early in my opinion.

Also it isn't really as 'caste-system' like as it sounds because as Velr is pointing out everything is basically free and if you chose to go to college after you've gotten an apprenticeship or worked for a few years that's no problem. If I'd had to guess I'd say that probably at least one quarter or one third of the people in my bachelors program where like 23-25 or even older. Still most people will probably 'stay on their path' but going to university after people have finished an apprenticeship has become more popular over the time.

Another benefit is that it also works the other way around. Many companies love to hire college dropouts for apprenticeships. So you're not doomed to work at Starbucks for the rest of your live which is nice I think.

Looking at a few guys from the US I've kept contact with over the years it looks like you're either finishing your bachelors when you're twenty or you're pretty much screwed. Some of them are even getting married, while most people here still live with their parents in their mid twenties, it's really weird.

That's more or less factually supported by the great gatsby curve.
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"every time WhiteDog overuses the word "seriously" in a comment I can make an observation on his fragile emotional state." MoltkeWarding
RolleMcKnolle
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Germany1054 Posts
September 17 2014 17:08 GMT
#25889
On September 17 2014 18:15 IgnE wrote:
The entire system of higher education in Germany has lost what matters most: the end as well as the means to the end. That education, that Bildung, is itself an end — and not "the Reich" — and that educators are needed to that end, and not
secondary-school teachers and university scholars — that has been forgotten. Educators are needed who have themselves
been educated, superior, noble spirits, proved at every moment, proved by words and silence, representing culture which has grown ripe and sweet — not the learned louts whom secondary schools and universities today offer our youth as "higher wet nurses." Educators are lacking, not counting the most exceptional of exceptions, the very first condition of education: hence the decline of German culture.

What the "higher schools" in Germany really achieve is a brutal training,designed to prepare huge numbers of young men, with as little loss of time as possible, to become usable, abusable, in government service. "Higher education" and
huge numbers — that is a contradiction to start with. All higher education belongs only to the exception: one must be privileged to have a right to so high a privilege. All great, all beautiful things can never be common property: pulchrum est paucorum hominum. What contributes to the decline of German culture? That "higher education" is no longer a privilege — the democratism of Bildung, which has become "common" — too common. Let it not be forgotten that military privileges really compel an all-too-great attendance in the higher schools, and thus their downfall. In present-day Germany no one is any longer free to give his children a noble education: our "higher schools" are all set up for the most ambiguous mediocrity, with their teachers, curricula, and teaching aims. And everywhere an indecent haste prevails, as if something would be lost if the young man of twenty-three were not yet "finished," or if he did not yet know the answer to the "main question": which calling? A higher kind of human being, if I may say so, does not like "callings," precisely because he knows himself to be called. He has time, he takes time, he does not even think of "finishing": at thirty one is, in the sense of high culture, a beginner, a child. Our overcrowded secondary schools, our overworked, stupefied secondary-school teachers, are a scandal: for one to defend such conditions, as the professors at Heidelberg did recently, there may perhaps be causes — reasons there are none.

holy shit dude. Some points are not wrong, but still: the system is getting worse coz not only children of rich fucks can study(assuming these have by far the easiest start in education and easy path to become a "chosen one")? u serious? Education needs to be a privilege? only few should be able to obtain "higher education"? The reason for the points you bring in are not democracy/education for everyone/whatever. The simple reason is that education exists for capitalism, and not for its own sake.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 17 2014 17:10 GMT
#25890
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44449 Posts
September 17 2014 17:26 GMT
#25891
On September 17 2014 12:28 Nyxisto wrote:
Practically speaking only the kids finishing first tier ("gymnasium") have the qualification to go to university. You can also study if you have learned a trade and a few years of experience, but most people who didn't get their qualification right away will just finish the last two years that you don't have at the two other school forms and get their qualifications that way.

I didn't look up the numbers but practically I guess it's rather unlikely that people who didn't go to the gymnasium right away will start to study.

Edit: @post above:

You basically finish four years of elementary school together with everybody else, then depending on your grades you'll have five years of education at one of the three different types of schools. (Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium). The 'Hauptschule' was supposed to give you a practical education and ideally will lead to people learning a trade, but nowadays it doesn't serve any purpose anymore because the education is just really bad. The 'Realschule' is basically the same thing but a little more difficult, and the 'Gymnasium' is supposed to be the most difficult type with two/formerly three additional years to prepare you for college.

Also most states offer "one school solutions" where everything is combined under one roof. Also every state is a little different, but that's the general concept.

We used a similar system in the UK postwar (not surprising because we created your system at the same time) but found that it quickly became favoured towards the top tier rather than being separate but equal options for children of different talents. Since then we went towards a one school for everyone system which is worse for the people who would have been top tier but better in terms of social mobility and using schools to breed common identity. Although the relationship between school zones and housing prices still lead to good schools and bad, as you'd expect.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-09-17 17:58:07
September 17 2014 17:39 GMT
#25892
@Igne I didn't see the post before but holy shit that is the most romanticized aristocratic crap I have ever read. Our higher education systems don't exist to produce intellectuals that can sit around in coffee-houses all day to ponder about how special they are. There's nothing wrong with trying to give everyone the best education possible. Also the "universities have just become factories that pump out workers" thing is just completely off. Compared to other countries people here graduate very late and often don't start working before their late 20's/early 30's. There's virtually no limit on how long you want to study.
On September 18 2014 02:26 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On September 17 2014 12:28 Nyxisto wrote:
Practically speaking only the kids finishing first tier ("gymnasium") have the qualification to go to university. You can also study if you have learned a trade and a few years of experience, but most people who didn't get their qualification right away will just finish the last two years that you don't have at the two other school forms and get their qualifications that way.

I didn't look up the numbers but practically I guess it's rather unlikely that people who didn't go to the gymnasium right away will start to study.

Edit: @post above:

You basically finish four years of elementary school together with everybody else, then depending on your grades you'll have five years of education at one of the three different types of schools. (Hauptschule/Realschule/Gymnasium). The 'Hauptschule' was supposed to give you a practical education and ideally will lead to people learning a trade, but nowadays it doesn't serve any purpose anymore because the education is just really bad. The 'Realschule' is basically the same thing but a little more difficult, and the 'Gymnasium' is supposed to be the most difficult type with two/formerly three additional years to prepare you for college.

Also most states offer "one school solutions" where everything is combined under one roof. Also every state is a little different, but that's the general concept.

We used a similar system in the UK postwar (not surprising because we created your system at the same time) but found that it quickly became favoured towards the top tier rather than being separate but equal options for children of different talents. Since then we went towards a one school for everyone system which is worse for the people who would have been top tier but better in terms of social mobility and using schools to breed common identity. Although the relationship between school zones and housing prices still lead to good schools and bad, as you'd expect.


Not only that but most of our education system pretty much goes straight back to Prussian times. It's very bureaucratic and inflexible. I don't think the 'one school for all' system is optimal but I guess the slightly more modern Scandinavian version where people go to one school until 8th or 9th grade is probably a little better.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 17 2014 17:46 GMT
#25893
On September 18 2014 02:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyHb0OgTW8I

I can't say that I really disagree with Bernie on his take on the Middle East.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 17 2014 23:16 GMT
#25894
Spineless President:

Barack Obama applied the brakes to the most critical component of his climate change plan on Tuesday, slowing the process of setting new rules cutting carbon pollution from power plants, and casting a shadow over a landmark United Nations’ summit on global warming.

The proposed power plant rules were meant to be the signature environmental accomplishment of Obama’s second term.

The threat of a delay in their implementation comes just one week before a heavily anticipated UN summit where officials had been looking to Obama to show leadership on climate change.

In a conference call with reporters, the Environmental Protection Agency said it was extending the public comment period on the power plant rules for an additional 45 days, until 1 December.

The delay follows heavy lobby by Republicans and industry lobby groups to delay the rule – or withdraw it outright. Fifteen governors had called on Obama and the EPA to withdraw the proposed regulations, which would cut carbon pollution from existing power plants.

Some electricity companies had argued that the rules were extraordinarily complex, clocking in at about 1,600 pages, and they needed extra time to study the full implications.

But a delay puts the EPA on an even tighter deadline to finalise the rule before Obama leaves office in 2016. Even before Tuesday’s extension, the initial comment period for the new EPA rule was already longer than the norm.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 17 2014 23:33 GMT
#25895
Obama is really a joke. Bernie Sanders 2016.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 17 2014 23:37 GMT
#25896
So does anyone still want to argue with my point that Obama is a bad leader? I'm not sure why anyone is surprised that he's backing down on the regs -- particularly in advance of the upcoming elections. It is not like it is out of character for him.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7684 Posts
September 17 2014 23:40 GMT
#25897
I'd argue with your implied point that being a "good leader" is more important than the results of the leading.
It is terrible to die of thirst at sea. Must you so salt your truth that it will no longer even slake thirst?
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
September 17 2014 23:42 GMT
#25898
greens don't even care about carbon why should obama care.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
September 17 2014 23:59 GMT
#25899
A federal judge in Utah has ruled that a member of a fundamentalist offshoot of the Mormon faith may refuse to answer questions in a child labor investigation as a result of the Hobby Lobby ruling on birth control.

The Sept. 11 decision by U.S. District Court Judge David Sam says Vergel Steed, who belongs to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (FLDS), doesn't have to comply with a federal subpoena because naming church leaders would violate his religious freedom.

As the basis for his conclusion, the judge cited Hobby Lobby decisions by the Supreme Court and 10th Circuit Court of Appeals, which said the Religious Freedom Restoration Act shields people from having to obey laws that substantially burden their religious practices.

"It is not for the Court to 'inquir[e] into the theological merit of the belief in question'," Sam wrote, citing Hobby Lobby. "The Court's 'only task is to determine whether the claimant's belief is sincere, and if so, whether the government has applied substantial pressure on the claimant to violate that belief.'"

The judge was referring to the 1993 statute, which says laws that violate religious liberty be narrowly tailored to meet a compelling governmental interest. The Supreme Court interpreted that law broadly by a 5-4 majority in Hobby Lobby when it said owners of closely held corporations may opt out of a law requiring coverage of contraceptives in their insurance plans.

"[I]t is clear that Mr. Steed has raised the very defenses available under RFRA," Sam wrote in his ruling, arguing that the government did not use the "least-restrictive means" to get what it wanted. The judge said the government may instead acquire the information it seeks about FLDS and Paragon Contractors, which are implicated in a 2012 incident involving children working in a field, by speaking to others "who contracted to manage the pecan ranch."


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
September 18 2014 00:09 GMT
#25900
On September 18 2014 08:40 IgnE wrote:
I'd argue with your implied point that being a "good leader" is more important than the results of the leading.

Eh, fair point, but typically, results will come with good leadership.
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