|
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 18 2014 21:16 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 20:36 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2014 20:33 RockIronrod wrote:On August 18 2014 20:26 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2014 20:14 RockIronrod wrote:
If it's not life threatening why would you use a gun and not a taser or pepper spray? Multiplying the possibility for collateral damage (legs on a moving target are apparently harder to hit than centre mass) so you can incapacitate via crippling is all kinds of fucked up. To stop dangerous (aka murder and such) criminals from escaping). The guy said shooting to wound is a myth. I show him some police is actually trained to shoot to wound. plain and simple. Google "shoot to wound" and you'll see basically everyone agrees it's a dumb concept. If the Netherlands actually does shoot to wound, and without a source I'm not going to believe they're that dumb, its not a point in the favour of their police force or the practice. http://www.politie.nl/onderwerpen/schietincident.htmlIts in Dutch (obviously) but there you go. What does it say in short ? Because from everything I heard, shoot-to-wound is just not a reasonable thing to do. Because if you need to shoot, you probably have good reason and in that case actually hitting is most important and that means aiming for center of the body as that maximizes your chances of hitting.
It says: Police are allowed to fire at a person suspected of a serious crime in order to arrest them, in the case of self-defense they are allowed to fire at the torso.
The word "noodweer" is used which i translated as self-defense, but it implies a super serious emergency situation, and is broader in that it may be used in the context of defending others too. From the wording it is unclear if police are ONLY allowed to fire at the legs in order to arrest, though most likely that is what is meant. Similarly, it is unclear if the police are specifically instructed to always shoot at the torso in the case of "noodweer".
Additionally it mentions that in the case of "noodweer" they are allowed to fire immediately, while in all other cases they must exhaust all other options, the options mentioned are "the use of his/her voice to descalate; if that fails pepperspray, baton, policedog".)
|
Kind of odd why we're talking about shooting at legs and feet, after many of us have explained that the protests have been about more than just the shooting...
|
On August 18 2014 22:56 aksfjh wrote:
Kind of odd why we're talking about shooting at legs and feet, after many of us have explained that the protests have been about more than just the shooting...
I'm not sure that Michaels should be the poster boy for this particular crusade.
|
|
|
On August 18 2014 22:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 22:56 aksfjh wrote:
Kind of odd why we're talking about shooting at legs and feet, after many of us have explained that the protests have been about more than just the shooting... I'm not sure that Michaels should be the poster boy for this particular crusade.
Fair enough, but it's not like there's some election for "poster boy." Character assassination doesn't suddenly make the plight of the others in the neighborhood (and across the country) moot. It's not like these people are scared of or angry at something that doesn't exist, and trying to link the protest solely to the facts about Brown is essentially attempting to sweep everything else under the rug.
|
On August 18 2014 22:58 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 22:56 aksfjh wrote:
Kind of odd why we're talking about shooting at legs and feet, after many of us have explained that the protests have been about more than just the shooting... I'm not sure that Michaels should be the poster boy for this particular crusade.
African Americans are still doing worse than nearly every other demographic in the US by nearly every measurable metric. This isn't a crusade. The newest shooting accident is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaking of a crusade, as if these people were religious zealots, given the fact that African Americans suffered from legal discrimination not even 50 years ago is laughable honestly.
|
On August 18 2014 23:54 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 22:58 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2014 22:56 aksfjh wrote:
Kind of odd why we're talking about shooting at legs and feet, after many of us have explained that the protests have been about more than just the shooting... I'm not sure that Michaels should be the poster boy for this particular crusade. Fair enough, but it's not like there's some election for "poster boy." Character assassination doesn't suddenly make the plight of the others in the neighborhood (and across the country) moot. It's not like these people are scared of or angry at something that doesn't exist, and trying to link the protest solely to the facts about Brown is essentially attempting to sweep everything else under the rug.
Well, my argument has always been that blaming racism for the plight of the black or otherwise victimizing the black community is basically sweeping the real problems under the rug.
|
On August 19 2014 00:23 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 23:54 aksfjh wrote:On August 18 2014 22:58 xDaunt wrote:On August 18 2014 22:56 aksfjh wrote:
Kind of odd why we're talking about shooting at legs and feet, after many of us have explained that the protests have been about more than just the shooting... I'm not sure that Michaels should be the poster boy for this particular crusade. Fair enough, but it's not like there's some election for "poster boy." Character assassination doesn't suddenly make the plight of the others in the neighborhood (and across the country) moot. It's not like these people are scared of or angry at something that doesn't exist, and trying to link the protest solely to the facts about Brown is essentially attempting to sweep everything else under the rug. Well, my argument has always been that blaming racism for the plight of the black or otherwise victimizing the black community is basically sweeping the real problems under the rug.
I hope you aren't trying to say there is an underlying inferiority to the African Americans. While the role of racism in the current situations of many African Americans may be questioned, there is no denying that it has a non-zero role in the probability of material success.
|
After the other 5 shots having one at the top of the head was probably as he was going down. It isn't really a thing and won't be unless its blown up to be a thing.
I'm pretty disgusted that the governor has decided to call out the militia for Ferguson. When the controversey seems to be filling about the militerization of the police force, he decides to up the game and activate actual military units.
|
On August 19 2014 00:54 Sermokala wrote:After the other 5 shots having one at the top of the head was probably as he was going down. It isn't really a thing and won't be unless its blown up to be a thing. I'm pretty disgusted that the governor has decided to call out the militia for Ferguson. When the controversey seems to be filling about the militerization of the police force, he decides to up the game and activate actual military units.
It isnt about the militerization of the police. Its about the use of power from the police. Removing them from the picture and letting the national guard take care of it can well serve to de-escalate the situation. You know, stop the 2 warring parties from actually meeting across the street all the time.
|
On August 19 2014 01:00 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 00:54 Sermokala wrote:After the other 5 shots having one at the top of the head was probably as he was going down. It isn't really a thing and won't be unless its blown up to be a thing. I'm pretty disgusted that the governor has decided to call out the militia for Ferguson. When the controversey seems to be filling about the militerization of the police force, he decides to up the game and activate actual military units. It isnt about the militerization of the police. Its about the use of power from the police. Removing them from the picture and letting the national guard take care of it can well serve to de-escalate the situation. You know, stop the 2 warring parties from actually meeting across the street all the time.
Yeah but they already did that by having the state police take over from the local police. escalating the situation to haveing actual military units in the area is the opposite of descalating the situation.
And the rioting and protests have been spured on by the original police department rolling out armored cars and pointing machine guns and sniper rifles at the crowd.
|
It seems like this is only getting so big cause no one trusts the police any more. Hell i have had family members that have served in the force and i dont trust the police. I know there are good ones out there but it just seems like every other one is a scumbag.
|
On August 18 2014 13:28 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 13:25 Sermokala wrote:
The police officer could have had his dashboard camera but the department didn't have the money to install them or have more then 2 for the entire force of 11. You're telling me that the Ferguson Police department can afford Tear Gas, Sound Cannons, Armored Vehicles and automatic weapons but can't afford to install dash cams in every squad car?
Yes, the US military gives it to them for nothing. It's recycling. Undoubtedly, it's causing a negative effect in the over-militarization of police forces, but you can understand why police chiefs take free high-quality equipment. (Although frankly I'd be happier sending it to our under-spending allies at a discount).
On August 18 2014 20:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2014 19:48 RockIronrod wrote:On August 18 2014 19:22 Gorsameth wrote:On August 18 2014 13:37 Sermokala wrote:
Police training is to shoot to kill. It has nothing to do with the situation and is the same as everywhere else in the country for good reason.
And you think this is a good thing? what the fuck man. No its not a police job to kill people. And he's not saying it's their job to kill people, he's saying that "shooting to wound" is not a real thing outside of Hollywood, and if the police draw their weapon it's because they believe lethal force is necessary. Whether or it was in this case is what they're trying to figure out. The police's case is looking pretty good right now, but the clothing analysis for gun powder residue and the toxicology is what's important. Hate to break it to you but here in the Netherlands for example the police is indeed trained to shoot at the legs of a subject if needed. Shooting at the torso is only allowed in life threatening situations. And an unarmed man at a distance is not life threatening.
Yeah, the US is a huge country that borders a war-zone and faces the legacy of centuries of discrimination. Netherlands is a country with the population of a big city and a land area half the size of South Carolina. One of these countries subsidizes the pax americana and yet has an under-funded state. The other got rich on the slave trade without ultimately landing any of the ensuing problems.
Don't get me wrong, I love the Netherlands. It's a great place with a lot to recommend it. But its not really comparable to the US on social problems. Heck, look at the police shooting rate in comparison to the homocide rates (as a proxy for violent crime) and you see that Netherlands has a higher shooting rate and a comparable fatality rate.
|
|
|
I like how news sites say "unarmed" for brown, when he clearly was armd with marijuana. Idk about yall but its crusade time.
|
On August 19 2014 03:16 Roswell wrote:
I like how news sites say "unarmed" for brown, when he clearly was armd with marijuana. Idk about yall but its crusade time.
lol...wat? You do realize Reefer Madness was not a documentary right? What do you mean 'crusade' anyway?
|
wtf does armed with marijuana mean?
|
All documentaries are fake biased nonsense, this is nothing new to me, can you not take a joke greenman? With conflicting testimonies, its going to be really hard to get this officer any jail time.
@ igne, he had pot in his system
|
On August 19 2014 03:45 Roswell wrote:
All documentaries are fake biased nonsense, this is nothing new to me, can you not take a joke greenman? With conflicting testimonies, its going to be really hard to get this officer any jail time.
@ igne, he had pot in his system
What difference does it make if he had cannabis in his system (as opposed to PCP like some have suggested)?
How did the toxicology report on the cop look...?
|
On August 19 2014 03:51 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 19 2014 03:45 Roswell wrote:
All documentaries are fake biased nonsense, this is nothing new to me, can you not take a joke greenman? With conflicting testimonies, its going to be really hard to get this officer any jail time.
@ igne, he had pot in his system What difference does it make if he had cannabis in his system (as opposed to PCP like some have suggested)? How did the toxicology report on the cop look...?
I see you cant.
But im glad you asked, we are sill waitin for the specimen transport and storage unit to arrive, but i'll keep you updated personally for the full report, before we alert the media with the gist.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
