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On June 02 2014 12:55 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 12:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
a) trying to paint all Republicans as bible thumping extremists Yes that would be totally unjustified! http://i.imgur.com/bTdSO1i.jpg(Not that the democrat numbers are great, but at least it isn't getting worth)
I'm not sure how much those numbers really matter. Maybe its different in the south, but where I live there are people who go to church but are still completely smart, educated and successful.
I think if you're intelligent you can differentiate between a religious belief you have a science. If you're a dumb fuck that's another story, but you'd be a dumb fuck regardless.
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On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit.
Are you fucking serious
Reader submission by Addison Peacock
Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players.
https://twitter.com/Feminspire
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On June 02 2014 12:15 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 10:22 Bigtony wrote:On June 02 2014 08:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in an American 'scientifically and historically accurate museum' + Show Spoiler +With gems like that we have to bring the kids right? Stinnett Elementary School in Hyden, Kentucky, took second graders on a field trip to the Creation Museum as part of its science curriculum. In one program, entitled "Evolution: Not a Chance," a museum official purportedly "illustrates the improbability of evolution" by entertaining children with magical illusions. In the "Monkey Business" workshop, "kids will learn that Lucy and other so-called ape men are not in the human family tree" and instead will be taught that "people were created specially in God's image." SourceNo field trip is complete without a test to make sure you retain your 'knowledge' right? (A 4th grade 'Science Quiz' from a NC private school) + Show Spoiler +SourceWouldn't want something like Common Core to interfere with quality education like that right...? Good luck children of Kentucky/North Carolina/etc... You'll need it. I pretty much guarantee you that whatever private school that test came from has high levels of student achievement than the local public school. No. In math and science competitions they were pretty much bottom of the barrel. Source: I went to Charlotte Latin and Greensboro Day School in NC and went to pretty much every math/science event I could. The main threats were 1. Homeschoolers who spent months prepping for individual events, 2. Other elite private schools, 3. White public schools having a good year. I'm not sure I ever saw one of the christian private schools place near or above us.
Math and science competitions aren't a measure of student achievement. You just compared a 7,000-10,000/year school (average tuition for a private religious school) to a 20,000 prep school, home schoolers, other prep schools, and top flight white public schools. That's not the comparison I made.
The local school wherever that private school is, is probably not a top flight public school and it probably performs better (higher average test scores where applicable) simply due to marginally smaller class sizes, more involved parent community, and lack of dead weight.
Not saying that this is some top notch educational facility, but to indict their entire educational process based on their religious beliefs is stupid.
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On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire
example
example
example
example
example
Not sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools.
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Well I only looked at the second link and that looks pretty reasonable. Why shouldn't we teach kids that men and women should be equally respected? What has this to do with the factually wrong statements that creationists make?
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On June 02 2014 13:26 Bigtony wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 12:15 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 10:22 Bigtony wrote:On June 02 2014 08:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in an American 'scientifically and historically accurate museum' + Show Spoiler +With gems like that we have to bring the kids right? Stinnett Elementary School in Hyden, Kentucky, took second graders on a field trip to the Creation Museum as part of its science curriculum. In one program, entitled "Evolution: Not a Chance," a museum official purportedly "illustrates the improbability of evolution" by entertaining children with magical illusions. In the "Monkey Business" workshop, "kids will learn that Lucy and other so-called ape men are not in the human family tree" and instead will be taught that "people were created specially in God's image." SourceNo field trip is complete without a test to make sure you retain your 'knowledge' right? (A 4th grade 'Science Quiz' from a NC private school) + Show Spoiler +SourceWouldn't want something like Common Core to interfere with quality education like that right...? Good luck children of Kentucky/North Carolina/etc... You'll need it. I pretty much guarantee you that whatever private school that test came from has high levels of student achievement than the local public school. No. In math and science competitions they were pretty much bottom of the barrel. Source: I went to Charlotte Latin and Greensboro Day School in NC and went to pretty much every math/science event I could. The main threats were 1. Homeschoolers who spent months prepping for individual events, 2. Other elite private schools, 3. White public schools having a good year. I'm not sure I ever saw one of the christian private schools place near or above us. You just compared a 7,000-10,000/year school (average tuition for a private religious school) to a 20,000 prep school, home schoolers, other prep schools, and top flight white public schools. Pretty much made my case for me. The local school wherever that private school is, is probably not a top flight public school and it probably performs better (higher average test scores where applicable) simply due to marginally smaller class sizes, more involved parent community, and lack of dead weight. Not saying that this is some top notch educational facility, but to indict their entire educational process based on their religious beliefs is stupid.
I said white. Not "top flight white public schools". Because there is no such distinction. Public schools occasionally had a good mixture of teaching and talent but it was pretty much random. Black schools and religious schools weren't even something to be taken seriously, because if their teachers were any good they would be working for the white public or private schools already.
And forgive me, but do you mind telling me at what point you think it is reasonable to criticize people who embrace stupidity in order to alleviate cognitive dissonance?
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On June 02 2014 13:34 Nyxisto wrote:
Well I only looked at the second link and that looks pretty reasonable. Why shouldn't we teach kids that men and women should be equally respected? What has this to do with the factually wrong statements that creationists make?
I didn't say that men and women shouldn't be equally respected. I also didn't say that feminism had anything to do with creationism.
Some of feminism is fine, but there's also and ideology to it. Better to stick to legit history on women's rights and biological science.
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On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools.
Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument.
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On June 02 2014 13:39 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 13:26 Bigtony wrote:On June 02 2014 12:15 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 10:22 Bigtony wrote:On June 02 2014 08:31 GreenHorizons wrote:Meanwhile in an American 'scientifically and historically accurate museum' + Show Spoiler +With gems like that we have to bring the kids right? Stinnett Elementary School in Hyden, Kentucky, took second graders on a field trip to the Creation Museum as part of its science curriculum. In one program, entitled "Evolution: Not a Chance," a museum official purportedly "illustrates the improbability of evolution" by entertaining children with magical illusions. In the "Monkey Business" workshop, "kids will learn that Lucy and other so-called ape men are not in the human family tree" and instead will be taught that "people were created specially in God's image." SourceNo field trip is complete without a test to make sure you retain your 'knowledge' right? (A 4th grade 'Science Quiz' from a NC private school) + Show Spoiler +SourceWouldn't want something like Common Core to interfere with quality education like that right...? Good luck children of Kentucky/North Carolina/etc... You'll need it. I pretty much guarantee you that whatever private school that test came from has high levels of student achievement than the local public school. No. In math and science competitions they were pretty much bottom of the barrel. Source: I went to Charlotte Latin and Greensboro Day School in NC and went to pretty much every math/science event I could. The main threats were 1. Homeschoolers who spent months prepping for individual events, 2. Other elite private schools, 3. White public schools having a good year. I'm not sure I ever saw one of the christian private schools place near or above us. You just compared a 7,000-10,000/year school (average tuition for a private religious school) to a 20,000 prep school, home schoolers, other prep schools, and top flight white public schools. Pretty much made my case for me. The local school wherever that private school is, is probably not a top flight public school and it probably performs better (higher average test scores where applicable) simply due to marginally smaller class sizes, more involved parent community, and lack of dead weight. Not saying that this is some top notch educational facility, but to indict their entire educational process based on their religious beliefs is stupid. I said white. Not "top flight white public schools". Because there is no such distinction. Public schools occasionally had a good mixture of teaching and talent but it was pretty much random. Black schools and religious schools weren't even something to be taken seriously, because if their teachers were any good they would be working for the white public or private schools already. And forgive me, but do you mind telling me at what point you think it is reasonable to criticize people who embrace stupidity in order to alleviate cognitive dissonance?
Maybe the demographics where you grew up are very different from here, but the white (better to say non black/latino because there are plenty of Asians as well) schools are the top flight public schools and it's not really random. There are mid and high performers in the category but they're fairly consistent. I've been on the inside of a few different small parochial schools and the quality of education/teacher is on par with the average public school.
I'm not defending the crusaders of "Creationism is science." I'm saying that in spite of their crusade, their schools and overall educational quality are the same as or better than the average public school. They're entitled to their religious beliefs and to raise their children as they see fit. Just because you think their interpretation of their religion is stupid doesn't mean they are abusing their children or brainwashing them (anymore than anyone teaching their kid about any philosophy or worldview is brainwashing their kid).
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On June 02 2014 13:50 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools. Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument.
Why would I need to show legislative activity? What argument are you imagining that I made?
Edit: I never argued that feminism was on legislative agendas.
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On June 02 2014 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 13:50 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools. Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument. Why would I need to show legislative activity? What argument are you imagining that I made? Edit: I never argued that feminism was on legislative agendas.
No you just compared it to Creationism being on political and legislative agendas to be taught as science in public school...?
I still don't know what aspects of feminism being advocated by political parties in public schools is even remotely comparable to Creationism...? But you seem to think several states GOP platforms including Creationism being taught in public school is comparable to feminism in some twisted way? It seems several people. noticed how strange that was.
Why was it you brought up feminism at all? Just to say that there are people who want it (or some extremist version you seem to imagine) taught in school? People want all sorts of things taught in school. Do you have something actually comparable being advocated by a political party to be taught in school or did you just want to hate on feminism? Because there are plenty of places for that.
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On June 02 2014 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 13:50 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools. Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument. Why would I need to show legislative activity? What argument are you imagining that I made? Edit: I never argued that feminism was on legislative agendas.
Then the relevance of your comment is...?
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On June 02 2014 14:39 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:50 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools. Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument. Why would I need to show legislative activity? What argument are you imagining that I made? Edit: I never argued that feminism was on legislative agendas. No you just compared it to Creationism being on political and legislative agendas.. I still don't know what aspects of feminism being advocated by political parties in public schools is even remotely comparable to Creationism...? But you seem to think several states GOP platforms including Creationism being taught in public school is comparable to feminism in some twisted way? It seems several people. noticed how strange that was. Why was it you brought up feminism at all? Just to say that there are people who want it (or some extremist version you seem to imagine) taught in school? People want all sorts of things taught in school. Do you have something actually comparable being advocated by a political party to be taught in school or did you just want to hate on feminism? Because there are plenty of places for that.
I'm not sure where you guys are getting the legislative agenda aspect from. I never made the claim that teaching feminism was on a legislative agenda.
What I did say was that I don't want either feminism or creationism taught in schools. I said this for a couple reasons. I don't think either a particularly scientific, and one is a conservative and one is a liberal position and I wanted to come off as politically neutral on the topic.
As for my science comment, science tries to be objective. Feminism is often at odds with this:
Questioning normal scientific reasoning is another form of Feminist Method. source
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On June 02 2014 15:03 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:50 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools. Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument. Why would I need to show legislative activity? What argument are you imagining that I made? Edit: I never argued that feminism was on legislative agendas. Then the relevance of your comment is...?
What comment? This one?
No I don't want Creationism taught in schools as 'science'. I don't want feminism taught as 'science' either.
It was kind of a throwaway line. This wasn't a major part of my post and there wasn't a major argument attached to it. If you want more details, see my reply to GH.
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Feminism as an Intellectual perspective is probably something that would be taught in a very specialized class dedicated to it and other philosophies and those aren't generally found in school under the university level anyway. I really don't get why you are arguing against Feminism? Its a very broad term that encompasses everything from activism and advocacy to an intellectual framework/ theory used in the social sciences. You seem to think all Feminism = anti-men propaganda? Its such an umbrella term that can mean so many things. So what exactly are you arguing against?
Feminism as a historical development should most definitely be part of any History course though. It was a very significant development in our history/culture (women's rights and expanding opportunities).
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It was kind of a throwaway line.
They all pretty much are anymore, aren't they?
I still don't see why you 'responded' to my comments at all in the first place. Nothing you have said really had anything to do with any of my points. It seems like you are just pushing some really weird anti-'feminism' (yet to be articulated) position, for some inexplicable reason.
I wanted to come off as politically neutral on the topic.
/fail...
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Feminism isn't an ideology, it's a movement. There are many different ideas of feminism, to argue with your own idea of a feminist ideology is a strawman.
As for scientific reasoning, listen to any popular scientist on the subject of female-empowerment.
Every civilization and society that has empowered its women has reaped huge, huge benefits.
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Book launching is a popular campaign strategy nowadays
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On June 02 2014 12:55 Nyxisto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 12:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
a) trying to paint all Republicans as bible thumping extremists Yes that would be totally unjustified! http://i.imgur.com/bTdSO1i.jpg(Not that the democrat numbers are great, but at least it isn't getting worth)
Hmm, if it's science denial in general that you're worried about. you should really get off your high horse. The democrats are no better; It's just different topics they choose to categorically deny all evidence.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/antiscience-beliefs-jeopardize-us-democracy/
In particular "vaccines cause autism" is a big one on the left hand of the political scale.
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On June 02 2014 15:35 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2014 14:39 GreenHorizons wrote:On June 02 2014 14:18 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:50 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:30 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 13:14 Jormundr wrote:On June 02 2014 13:04 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On June 02 2014 12:34 farvacola wrote:
Tell me, Jonny, where is there a push to teach feminism as "science"? They've done campaigns to edit wikipedia pages ( example) and interject feminist ideas as if they represent real research or science. There are also people who want feminism taught in schools. ( example) Maybe as a 'science' is the wrong word, but they want it taught even though so much of it is nothing but bull shit. Are you fucking serious Reader submission by Addison Peacock Your fucking evidence is a goddamn teenager blog on some random site on the internet? For god's sake man, the site has less relevance than many sc2 players. https://twitter.com/Feminspire exampleexampleexampleexampleexampleNot sure how much evidence I need to show. My point was that there are people who want feminism taught in schools. Not sure if you're trolling? You're trying to compare feminism to creationism in this regard so a few instances of state legislatures actively trying to insert 'feminism' would probably demonstrate that you have the beginnings of a foundation for your argument. Why would I need to show legislative activity? What argument are you imagining that I made? Edit: I never argued that feminism was on legislative agendas. No you just compared it to Creationism being on political and legislative agendas.. I still don't know what aspects of feminism being advocated by political parties in public schools is even remotely comparable to Creationism...? But you seem to think several states GOP platforms including Creationism being taught in public school is comparable to feminism in some twisted way? It seems several people. noticed how strange that was. Why was it you brought up feminism at all? Just to say that there are people who want it (or some extremist version you seem to imagine) taught in school? People want all sorts of things taught in school. Do you have something actually comparable being advocated by a political party to be taught in school or did you just want to hate on feminism? Because there are plenty of places for that. I'm not sure where you guys are getting the legislative agenda aspect from. I never made the claim that teaching feminism was on a legislative agenda. What I did say was that I don't want either feminism or creationism taught in schools. I said this for a couple reasons. I don't think either a particularly scientific, and one is a conservative and one is a liberal position and I wanted to come off as politically neutral on the topic. As for my science comment, science tries to be objective. Feminism is often at odds with this: source
Red herring. Move along people.
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