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TL;DR: Make Fungal slow units down only but still do 75 damage
If you weren't a broodwar player. Look it up on liquidpedia BW.
For those like me who were. Plaque was extremely annoying to deal with. The red goo from the defiler would kill off your entire army almost if you let the defilers get to you.
I say we make Fungal a mix between the Queen's Ensnare and Plaque in Broodwar...
I honestly am a bit mad that fungal is something that anyone can use and takes little to no skill.
But honestly. It just makes some sense to me because there isn't any unit but infestor that can negate micro. It's just not like starcraft. :/
TL;DR again: Make Fungal slow units down only but still do 75 damage
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Plaque is what you get when you don't floss. (^_^)
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I share the same sentiment. Fungal Growth has always been my most hated ability in the game. I would also love to see it not kill units the same way as Plague did. It would force the Terran to deactivate auto heal on medivacs or waste energy. I like things that separate good players from less-than-good players.
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It doesn't need a damage buff, plague + infested terrans is too powerful. Fungal does need attention but this isn't the fix.
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I think fungal should be more like storm or even more powerfull like a nuke
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Fungal should be more like Ensare. Only slows down (no rooting), does no damage, and requires a research. Anyone with me?
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On October 04 2012 06:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Fungal should be more like Ensare. Only slows down (no rooting), does no damage, and requires a research. Anyone with me?
divide fungal in both spells. a slow and a damage spell and make them not stackable. might work out.
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On October 04 2012 06:21 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
It doesn't need a damage buff, plague + infested terrans is too powerful. Fungal does need attention but this isn't the fix.
You are correct and if you make a comparison between infested terrans and auto turrets the infested terrans scales better as you upgrade your ranged attack. Infested terrans are easier to spam in a certain area as opposed to turrets and the slightly longer range doesn't remotely make up for the fact that turrets are buildings (requiring an empty lot on the battlefield). But it's the combination of root + massive amount of infested terrans dps that makes the infestor so cost efficient at times.
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On October 04 2012 06:21 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
It doesn't need a damage buff, plague + infested terrans is too powerful. Fungal does need attention but this isn't the fix.
So change infested terrans to something else that makes more sense. Not to bring reality into the game but come on, birthing machine guns? This ain't transformers!
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But honestly. It just makes some sense to me because there isn't any unit but infestor that can negate micro. It's just not like starcraft. :/
uh... forcefields?
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On October 04 2012 06:45 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +But honestly. It just makes some sense to me because there isn't any unit but infestor that can negate micro. It's just not like starcraft. :/ uh... forcefields?
Thor cannons and Graviton negate micro too.
And in BW, Maelstrom and Lockdown.
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I really, really wish Blizzard would take the HoTS beta as an opportunity to test stuff like this. A slow instead of snare would be leagues better than the actual state of fungal which just shuts down vikings so hard against broodlord.
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Glad to see some responses that are good and agreeing with me. Never expected that.
On October 04 2012 06:45 sCCrooked wrote:Show nested quote +But honestly. It just makes some sense to me because there isn't any unit but infestor that can negate micro. It's just not like starcraft. :/ uh... forcefields?
You can micro away from forcefields or simply "move" away from forcefields.
If you're smart and terran you lift off quickly and drop behind forcefields during a 9:30 push or 10:00
If zerg you just let them waste forcefields.
If also toss just rofl with colo or blink.
Forcefields don't negate micro.
Fungal does, you can't move away from it, you can't unsiege, you can't blink, you can't load up medivacs to survive from excess banelings in TvZ, you can't do anything but pray he doesn't do chain fungals. :/
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Still though, Maelstrom and Lockdown. They completely stop movement. Actually, Stasis Field too, although it's more like Vortex.
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On October 04 2012 07:04 Antylamon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 06:45 sCCrooked wrote:But honestly. It just makes some sense to me because there isn't any unit but infestor that can negate micro. It's just not like starcraft. :/ uh... forcefields? Thor cannons and Graviton negate micro too. And in BW, Maelstrom and Lockdown.
I'd say Thor cannon and Graviton aren't on the same level because they are single target spells AND requires channeling so there's a bigger cost/risk to using them. Graviton can stay  .
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On October 04 2012 07:10 XERtirips wrote:Forcefields don't negate micro./
Just quoting this so you can't edit it away later after the inevitable slew of posters that will lol at your very incorrect statement.
Any decent player understands this. Only poor or terrible player with bad understanding of strategy at a basic level will even think of disagreeing with what I've implied.
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lol sCCrooked. lol even more XERtirips. Forcefields don't negate micro rofl.
Oh yeah you guys forgot stasis when you listed BW micro negating spells. The difference between BW and SC2 is the spells were pretty tricky to pull off and didn't have smart casting and easy ways to tell what will be hit.
Hey XERtirips maybe you should, idk if this is outrageous or what but maybe you should.. make a tank. Just saying, tanks and ghosts proven effective against even the most heinous infestations.
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On October 04 2012 07:14 Antylamon wrote:
Still though, Maelstrom and Lockdown. They completely stop movement. Actually, Stasis Field too, although it's more like Vortex.
I haven't played BW in years but lockdown was really high in the tech path, single target and had a some insane cost (like 150/150 or 2/2), while only targeting non-bio and maelstrom was aoe but only to bio units and ff was possible with a similar cost iirc. Additionally comparing them to fungal isn't entirely valid because of the vastly different unit pathing. You couldn't hold the majority of someone's army in place with two casts them chain them until the battle is over, win or lose. If
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Here's my idea for how the spell should be changed:
Fungal Growth
Cast by Infestor
Energy: 75
Cooldown: 2 minutes
Research: 300m/300g
Requires: Hive, Greater Spire and Ultralisk Cavern
Effect: When cast, the infestor delivers a large deep-crust mushroom pizza (radius 2.5) to the targeted area. Enemy units within the area of effect eat the pizza and regain lost HP. However, if only one unit is in the affected area and is left unmicroed for thirty seconds or more it will become Overfed. Overfed units feel slightly bloated and sluggish, moving at only 95% of their normal speed until a brisk walk sorts them out.
Bonus Effects: Everyone stops making threads about Fungal Growth.
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On October 04 2012 07:46 Stutters695 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 07:14 Antylamon wrote:
Still though, Maelstrom and Lockdown. They completely stop movement. Actually, Stasis Field too, although it's more like Vortex. I haven't played BW in years but lockdown was really high in the tech path, single target and had a some insane cost (like 150/150 or 2/2), while only targeting non-bio and maelstrom was aoe but only to bio units and ff was possible with a similar cost iirc. Additionally comparing them to fungal isn't entirely valid because of the vastly different unit pathing. You couldn't hold the majority of someone's army in place with two casts them chain them until the battle is over, win or lose. If
I wasn't comparing them to Fungal. I was comparing them to "negating micro."
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Forum star for Umpteen, he's solved the matchup.
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On October 04 2012 07:33 sCCrooked wrote:Just quoting this so you can't edit it away later after the inevitable slew of posters that will lol at your very incorrect statement.
Inhibit != negate.
Forcefields inhibit unit movements, but do not prevent them from moving. They can still move, burrow, blink, load into dropships, etc. Fungal removes micro completely.
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Quite a lot of people are blaming warp-gate and the colossus for this games failings: I honestly believe that the single ability/unit skewering the balance in this game the most, at this point, is fungal growth/the infestor.
I would welcome a change - making it slow seems quite appropriate.
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On October 04 2012 07:48 Audemed wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 07:33 sCCrooked wrote:On October 04 2012 07:10 XERtirips wrote:Forcefields don't negate micro./ Just quoting this so you can't edit it away later after the inevitable slew of posters that will lol at your very incorrect statement. Inhibit != negate. Forcefields inhibit unit movements, but do not prevent them from moving. They can still move, burrow, blink, load into dropships, etc. Fungal removes micro completely.
Fungal doesn't remove micro completely. You can still attack (and choose what targets to attack), use spells and abilities that are not movement based or transformations, unload units from a transport, and load units into a transport (if within pickup radius).
The only abilities in SC2 (WoL) that remove micro completely are Vortex, Graviton Beam, and 250mm Strike Cannons, with the last 2 being single target abilites that only work on certain targets.
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On October 04 2012 06:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Fungal should be more like Ensare. Only slows down (no rooting), does no damage, and requires a research. Anyone with me?
lol is this a joke? While you're at it, why don't you give Zergs no speed buff over creep and everytime a drone morphs into a building, 10 random zerg units die. expected from a Terran player
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On October 04 2012 08:16 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 06:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Fungal should be more like Ensare. Only slows down (no rooting), does no damage, and requires a research. Anyone with me? lol is this a joke? While you're at it, why don't you give Zergs no speed buff over creep and everytime a drone morphs into a building, 10 random zerg units die. expected from a Terran player
Hey, they're both green! How can you NOT see the connection?
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On October 04 2012 08:16 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 06:32 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Fungal should be more like Ensare. Only slows down (no rooting), does no damage, and requires a research. Anyone with me? lol is this a joke? While you're at it, why don't you give Zergs no speed buff over creep and everytime a drone morphs into a building, 10 random zerg units die. expected from a Terran player
You are taking things a bit too seriously; he is just living up to his username.
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Canada13389 Posts
On October 04 2012 07:33 sCCrooked wrote:Just quoting this so you can't edit it away later after the inevitable slew of posters that will lol at your very incorrect statement.
I think he means it doesnt negate micro in the same way.
Forcefields you can micro out of with certain abilities, or with massive units.
Fungal is definite. It is singular and set. No amount of anything allows you to get away from a chain fungal if the zerg has energy.
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75 damage plus a snare would be way overpowered considering storm is eighty damage and no snare o.O
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Perhaps increase the area but make fungal a channeling spell. 3s warning to move out of the area?
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On October 04 2012 08:41 Zaurus wrote:
Perhaps increase the area but make fungal a channeling spell. 3s warning to move out of the area?
Three seconds is way too long. Every unit which is faster than a BC would easily be out of harm's way.
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fungal growth is like the best spell in the game, it doesnt need buffing - at all!
its ridiculously powerful, i like to call it psi storm 2.0
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a lengthy ensare would be actually pretty cool ala statis from bw - but then one of fungal growths abilities is slowing down armies so idk.
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ensnare decreased attack speed aswell so might add that( ofc just slow like op wanted).
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On October 04 2012 06:40 Jinmaster wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 06:21 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
It doesn't need a damage buff, plague + infested terrans is too powerful. Fungal does need attention but this isn't the fix. This ain't transformers!
You obviously don't play Terran XD
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Replacing rooting with ensnaring would give the player to avoid or minimize damage from the 2nd fungal.
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But zergs won't want fungal to change, because they need infestors to be this powerful to keep balance where it is. So whenever proposing infestor nerfs, you have to include other zerg buffs to compensate.
The problem is that infestors right now are too versatile and good to ever even think about not making them. That is bad for the diversity of the game. Buff some unused zerg stuff (like the hydra!) and you will see more interesting unit compositions.
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If you're going to nerf infestors you need to give ultras their speed upgrade back.
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On October 04 2012 12:08 RowdierBob wrote:
If you're going to nerf infestors you need to give ultras their speed upgrade back.
I thought the Blizz made the speed upgrade free...
Edit: Yes they did. See patch 14. What are you talking about -_-;;
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Why not just make fungal a slow as it should be instead of a root which makes it over powered.
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Anybody still suggesting things like "remove damage" for fungal or "have it slow instead of root" doesn't understand the basic design problems with each race at a high enough level to be talking about this.
Zerg can only survive any matchup because of how powerful infestors AS-THEY-ARE work. If you're going to even consider modifying fungal from its current form, you better damn well possess the understanding of the role infestors play for Zerg builds and army compositions in every matchup.
To even suggest any changes without radical buffs to cover what you just took from Zerg's ability is naive and proves a lack of understanding of the basics within the game.
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don't change it in WoL. But seriously consider a change to it in HotS. I feel like they took a spell straight out of dota designed against heroes and ported it in directly into sc2. Overgrowth to be exact, except its ranged >.>
Antimicro spells should NEVER exist in sc2.
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but this is beta so now is the time to make the big changes that could make the game more diverse and exciting. We shouldn't be held back by the fact that some major rebalancing must also come with the changes.
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Next thing you know is people is going to want Dark Swarm back. (I know viper has a similar ability but it isn't the same) Fungal is fine they way it is. Plus plague aginst mech is too strong, unless you always have like 20 SCVs on auto repair.
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Most of us wants to see changes to fungal, but OP's suggestion is not the way to go.
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On October 04 2012 12:38 sCCrooked wrote:
Anybody still suggesting things like "remove damage" for fungal or "have it slow instead of root" doesn't understand the basic design problems with each race at a high enough level to be talking about this.
Zerg can only survive any matchup because of how powerful infestors AS-THEY-ARE work. If you're going to even consider modifying fungal from its current form, you better damn well possess the understanding of the role infestors play for Zerg builds and army compositions in every matchup.
To even suggest any changes without radical buffs to cover what you just took from Zerg's ability is naive and proves a lack of understanding of the basics within the game.
Agree. I think fungals need to be looked at. At the same time, the other zerg units will need a buff (hydras?) of some sort to compensate. Same thing with buffing T3 terran, I think it is a good idea. But probably need a slight nerf to late game marines to compensate. Same with Mothership vortex.
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On October 04 2012 12:44 Dontkillme wrote:
Next thing you know is people is going to want Dark Swarm back. (I know viper has a similar ability but it isn't the same) Fungal is fine they way it is. Plus plague aginst mech is too strong, unless you always have like 20 SCVs on auto repair.
Fungal is fine the way it is? That has got to be the most biased statement ever. It has been generally accepted by literally everyone that it is completely overpowered.
75 energy for a 4 second snare, 30(+10) AoE lethal damage, instant cast, reveals cloaked units.
There is not a single ability in sc2 that comes even close to being that powerful.
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The only good thing that comes out of Fungal, is that we get to see some awesome pre-battle splits. While that is really nice, and requires a player to have good preparation, I don't really like how once a Fungal has happened, there's nothing you can do about it.
Sadly, much of the game is balanced around the effectiveness of both Fungal and Force Field. If these were abilities you'd find high up in a tech tree, I think I'd appreciate them more, as we wouldn't see them in every single game.
If Fungal and Force Field is to be removed, or moved to be late game upgrades, you'd have to buff the units they are usually supported by, which would mean strong as hell 4gates and immortal Zerglings and Roaches..
Unless of course, they added something new to the mix. MSCore might be a solution. As well as the Swarm Host, mayhaps..
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What about just disabling smart cast for spells that reduce micro.
On OP i would love it if fungal were divided into two spells say ensnare for 25-50 energy and fungal(plauge) for 50-75 energy.
Or even putting maybe the ensnare spell say on the overseer or curroptor to give them another use. (However if it were on the curruptor than it would have to be a cooldown spell don't want to have the collosus killers getting fedback too much again.)
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On October 04 2012 12:49 Dauntless wrote:
The only good thing that comes out of Fungal, is that we get to see some awesome pre-battle splits. While that is really nice, and requires a player to have good preparation, I don't really like how once a Fungal has happened, there's nothing you can do about it.
Sadly, much of the game is balanced around the effectiveness of both Fungal and Force Field. If these were abilities you'd find high up in a tech tree, I think I'd appreciate them more, as we wouldn't see them in every single game.
If Fungal and Force Field is to be removed, or moved to be late game upgrades, you'd have to buff the units they are usually supported by, which would mean strong as hell 4gates and immortal Zerglings and Roaches..
Unless of course, they added something new to the mix. MSCore might be a solution. As well as the Swarm Host, mayhaps..
I think Fungal is the easier fix, especially considering how strong  is in the current metagame. Even a nerf from root->50% slow is still a powerful spell. Maybe a buff to Hydras will help deal with mass air. Hydras need a buff anyways, so killing 2 birds with 1 stone.
As for Forcefield, I have no clue. Some people have suggested giving it hitpoints, but that seems like a nightmare to balance.
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On October 04 2012 07:33 sCCrooked wrote:Just quoting this so you can't edit it away later after the inevitable slew of posters that will lol at your very incorrect statement. Any decent player understands this. Only poor or terrible player with bad understanding of strategy at a basic level will even think of disagreeing with what I've implied.
No he is right, force field can be Micro'd out of. Fungal to cannot, stop whining because you suck at the game and actually compare them properly, you cannot do a thing to avoid fungal, you can to get away from forcefields
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On October 04 2012 12:47 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 12:38 sCCrooked wrote:
Anybody still suggesting things like "remove damage" for fungal or "have it slow instead of root" doesn't understand the basic design problems with each race at a high enough level to be talking about this.
Zerg can only survive any matchup because of how powerful infestors AS-THEY-ARE work. If you're going to even consider modifying fungal from its current form, you better damn well possess the understanding of the role infestors play for Zerg builds and army compositions in every matchup.
To even suggest any changes without radical buffs to cover what you just took from Zerg's ability is naive and proves a lack of understanding of the basics within the game. Agree. I think fungals need to be looked at. At the same time, the other zerg units will need a buff (hydras?) of some sort to compensate. Same thing with buffing T3 terran, I think it is a good idea. But probably need a slight nerf to late game marines to compensate. Same with Mothership vortex.
Nobody is suggesting to leave the game as is when changing fungal, I don't know why people even bring it up. Of course you'll have to change other things, it's a stupid arguement
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On October 04 2012 12:58 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 07:33 sCCrooked wrote:On October 04 2012 07:10 XERtirips wrote:Forcefields don't negate micro./ Just quoting this so you can't edit it away later after the inevitable slew of posters that will lol at your very incorrect statement. Any decent player understands this. Only poor or terrible player with bad understanding of strategy at a basic level will even think of disagreeing with what I've implied. No he is right, force field can be Micro'd out of. Fungal to cannot, stop whining because you suck at the game and actually compare them properly, you cannot do a thing to avoid fungal, you can to get away from forcefields
You fit into the second part of my post. Stop whining because you can't identify basic components of strategy.
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On October 04 2012 12:53 terranghost wrote:
What about just disabling smart cast for spells that reduce micro.
On OP i would love it if fungal were divided into two spells say ensnare for 25-50 energy and fungal(plauge) for 50-75 energy.
Or even putting maybe the ensnare spell say on the overseer or curroptor to give them another use. (However if it were on the curruptor than it would have to be a cooldown spell don't want to have the collosus killers getting fedback too much again.)
This. This. This.
Why?
1)It puts way more emphasis on troop vs troop rather than caster vs caster unless you can somehow pull off the micro (where the casters sometimes become the "core" composition.. seems way too much like warcraft 3)
2)It puts the skill ceiling that much higher which means that pulling off lots of spells (storms) on the right location is actually worth cheering for (or casters shouting about great fungals).
3)It can be compensated by buffing the damage to OP levels making them look visually devastating as their gfx animations suggest.
edit - It would be good if Blizzard could delay the access to these spellcasters to late game (or make them much riskier if tried to access the tech early) as SC has all been about troop vs troop which is something I always thought was missing in SC2 (only T follows this tradition close and Z somewhat).
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On October 04 2012 12:38 sCCrooked wrote:
Anybody still suggesting things like "remove damage" for fungal or "have it slow instead of root" doesn't understand the basic design problems with each race at a high enough level to be talking about this.
Zerg can only survive any matchup because of how powerful infestors AS-THEY-ARE work. If you're going to even consider modifying fungal from its current form, you better damn well possess the understanding of the role infestors play for Zerg builds and army compositions in every matchup.
To even suggest any changes without radical buffs to cover what you just took from Zerg's ability is naive and proves a lack of understanding of the basics within the game.
True if any change were really made to the infestor it would spell doom for the entire zerg race however....
This is the HOTS beta forum a beta is a place for things to be tried and experimented with. I see no harm in suggestion no matter how ridiculous it might be having Blizzard find out about it and implement it to try it out.
If a change were indeed implemented to the infestor and it ended up detrimental other units could be buffed to compensate or the change could just be revoked it is a beta after all. I mean I doubt anyone here is suggesting to have this change implemented for WOL and if they are they should really think twice about it.
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As a zerg, I agree. Change fungal. It's stupid. But now how are you going to fix zerg? A buff to hydras does not cover how weak zerg is without fungal...
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On October 04 2012 13:05 terranghost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2012 12:38 sCCrooked wrote:
Anybody still suggesting things like "remove damage" for fungal or "have it slow instead of root" doesn't understand the basic design problems with each race at a high enough level to be talking about this.
Zerg can only survive any matchup because of how powerful infestors AS-THEY-ARE work. If you're going to even consider modifying fungal from its current form, you better damn well possess the understanding of the role infestors play for Zerg builds and army compositions in every matchup.
To even suggest any changes without radical buffs to cover what you just took from Zerg's ability is naive and proves a lack of understanding of the basics within the game. True if any change were really made to the infestor it would spell doom for the entire zerg race however.... This is the HOTS beta forum a beta is a place for things to be tried and experimented with. I see no harm in suggestion no matter how ridiculous it might be having Blizzard find out about it and implement it to try it out. If a change were indeed implemented to the infestor and it ended up detrimental other units could be buffed to compensate or the change could just be revoked it is a beta after all. I mean I doubt anyone here is suggesting to have this change implemented for WOL and if they are they should really think twice about it.
Perhaps people are misunderstanding my stance on fungal. I actually hate the spell. I want my damn scourge back for my anti-air. I want corruptors to not be so one-dimensional. I want ffs to not be the ENTIRE focus of Protoss army strategies through the early/midgame. These are problems pros have been wishing Blizzard would address for a very long time now and these concerns have been completely ignored.
I loved the defiler in BW and was hoping Viper would be somewhat similar (it seems it is a step in the right direction for anti-deathball tactics). However the role of the infestor right now is so important because of our inability to get detection without very high economic cost at critical moments or anti-air at the exact same type of critical moments. Its a serious design flaw with Zerg. I won't even go into the gripes I have with our units that give no sort of significant advantage over simply setting up an arc and then attack moving into the other army.
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On October 04 2012 13:08 Beef Noodles wrote:
As a zerg, I agree. Change fungal. It's stupid. But now how are you going to fix zerg? A buff to hydras does not cover how weak zerg is without fungal...
Could lower their cost? supply? instead of being expensive glass cannons? Hydras should be spammable just like the roach imo.
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United States17042 Posts
please post this kind of suggestion on the battle.net forums, as teamliquid can't do anything about the balance of the game. Thanks.
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EPT
