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On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
The answer is fewer than if the regimes that were in place were left to go on.
Or did you think that Afghanistan under the Taliban wasn't stuck in a gruesome civil war? With as many as 15 UN-standard massacres being recorded?
Or that Iraq wasn't one of the most gruesome regimes in the world?
Honestly, Iraq was just a matter of time anyway. When you see what psycho was next in line, you knew that the world couldn't tolerate that cancer in its midsts.
North-Korea, for all its sickness, is relatively contained. Iraq was a loose cannon, and just as bad when it came to human rights.
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On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
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On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
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I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
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On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country..
And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc..
they don't have oil right?
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I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening. 
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On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
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My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
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Its not that easy the way the Op displayed the question is wrong to me.
There are more options than terrorist or goverment.
It coult be nearly anything from a big hoax to an goverment expirement.
We dont have the informations needet we dont have the possibility to see thing for ourselves.
We get ignored in this situation ignored by the goverment of the united states.
This and some other things like WTC 7 and the pentagon the whole efficency and the success-rate made me suspicious.
I dont believe anything unti lit makes complete sence to me and is solved properly but since this is denied i can only guess like everybody else.
At some point you suspect the us to hide something importand and therefore gets in the focus as an suspect.
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On September 12 2012 05:59 shell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move. Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country.. And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc.. they don't have oil right?
The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after.
Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed.
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On September 12 2012 05:49 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:43 Dr_Jones wrote:On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote:
Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv. Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over... RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over... Number of dead does not define the importance of an event. For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died. On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out. There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental. You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important. There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
Crying doesn't make it important. The amount of people that died makes it important. If billions died we'd be afraid for the survival of the species, if only a few people died things would be fine and life would carry on.
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On September 12 2012 06:00 fellcrow wrote:Show nested quote +My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
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On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
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On September 12 2012 06:02 Roe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:49 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:43 Dr_Jones wrote:On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote:
Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv. Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over... RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over... Number of dead does not define the importance of an event. For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died. On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out. There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental. You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important. There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember. Crying doesn't make it important. The amount of people that died makes it important. If billions died we'd be afraid for the survival of the species, if only a few people died things would be fine and life would carry on.
No, because at that point you are talking about more than numbers, you are talking about a complete breakdown of society and all the distater that comes with that.
So, again, no, the deathtoll isn't that important.
I wouldn't say nuking Japan was trivial just because the Spanish influenza was worse.
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On September 12 2012 06:06 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to. How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's? Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism. See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism. Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case. islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2012 05:49 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:43 Dr_Jones wrote:On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote:
Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv. Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over... RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over... Number of dead does not define the importance of an event. For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died. On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out. There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental. You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important. There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
You misunderstand my post, but that's ok. I'm not saying we shouldn't mourn those who were killed in 9/11, nor am I trying to take anything away from its importance. BUT there is a point to be made about why we care so much about this event, which directly affected a very small part of the world population, when we completely disregard world poverty and hunger on a massive scale, which affects hundreds of millions of people. We've blinded by government discourse on security and as such disregard the bigger, more real threats to the human race. Just look at global warming, nobody seems to care much about it, even though it is arguably the biggest current and future threat to billions of people. This was my point, and I do not think I'm pissing on someone's grave by raising it.
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On September 12 2012 06:03 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:00 fellcrow wrote:My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before. This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
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On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
Christians and Jews suffer more oppression on a global scale. Jews take the cake by a long shot.
When did a Jew ever walk into a German bar and blow himself up?
There is an inherent difference.
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On September 12 2012 05:59 Sanctimonius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal. That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities.
Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
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On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
To replace it with another dictatorship and a semi-Islamist one at that (in fact, the primary party is a former extremist terror group... ), while over the course of 20 years turning one of the better countries in the developing world into a chaotically hopeless shithole. If Hussein was a Saud or Mubarak, we would be best pals with him to this day. But anyone, especially in one of the world's most strategic reasons and near Israel, that is gaining in power, is deemed a threat our domination and power in the Mideast, and not under our grip needs to go. Plain and simple. Just need to find the right opportunity, like false claims of WMDs so a war can be sold to the public lol.
On September 12 2012 06:09 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:59 Sanctimonius wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal. That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about. Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities. Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
Interestingly enough, without the sanctions and Iraq War, it probably would be. Just an FYI: It was the sanctions that buried and collapsed the Iraqi economy. IIRC, the GDP fell 75-80% over those 12 years. Not to mention the fact that everything else (education, infrastructure, industries, etc.) deteriorated a lot. Considering the fact that most of the economic growth in the world has occurred in the past 30 years, Iraq has obviously missed out due to 30 years of war and sanctions.
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