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On September 12 2012 06:01 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:59 shell wrote:On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move. Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country.. And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc.. they don't have oil right? The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after. Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed.
do you know me? do you know what i have in my bedroom? Maybe you have one of hitler? wasn't your grandfather the one that told the nazis where to find Anne Frank? duh..
Why are you making this personal? I'm just saying that Lybia might not be Netherlands or Portugal but they were clearly one of the best African countrys by all the standarts.. and now how are they? did people's lives got better?
If the USA/Nato interventions were made because of the citizens why didn't they save all of Africa? Why only Lybia?
Why not Ruanda where 3 millions people were butchered? Why not Somalia that is a lawless country since 20 years ago?
It's always about money, never about the people! Open your eyes and your mind to other possibilities!
Both USA and europe are to blame, yes even Netherlands. Or do you forget about "blood diamonds", it was the dutch and the greed of De beers..
In the end it's always the greed of the western companys the ones to blame..
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On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote:I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening. 
Reichstag should mean something to you.
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On September 12 2012 06:09 fellcrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:03 calgar wrote:On September 12 2012 06:00 fellcrow wrote:My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before. This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention? I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed?
I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
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On September 12 2012 06:09 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to. Christians and Jews suffer more oppression on a global scale. Jews take the cake by a long shot. When did a Jew ever walk into a German bar and blow himself up? There is an inherent difference.
Arguing against someone playing the oppression card is like trying to play chess against a pigeon. No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around victoriously.
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just want to say don't forget about state terrorism. USA and latin america. stalinist russia. nazi germany. cambodia? etc.
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On September 12 2012 06:08 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:06 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to. How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's? Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism. See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism. Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case. islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree) Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
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On September 12 2012 06:10 GizmoPT wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote:I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening. Reichstag should mean something to you.
Are you implying that he should understand antisemitism since he's from Germany where Hitler ruled? If yes, that's really pathetic.
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On September 12 2012 06:09 fellcrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:03 calgar wrote:On September 12 2012 06:00 fellcrow wrote:My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before. This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention? I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
SWEET COP OUT BRO
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On September 12 2012 06:10 shell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:01 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:59 shell wrote:On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move. Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country.. And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc.. they don't have oil right? The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after. Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed. do you know me? do you know what i have in my bedroom? Maybe you have one of hitler? wasn't your grandfather the one that told the nazis where to find Anne Frank? duh.. Why are you making this personal? I'm just saying that Lybia might not be Netherlands or Portugal but they were clearly one of the best African countrys by all the standarts.. and now how are they? did people's lives got better? If the USA/Nato interventions were made because of the citizens why didn't they save all of Africa? Why only Lybia? Why not Ruanda where 3 millions people were butchered? Why not Somalia that is a lawless country since 20 years ago? It's always about money, never about the people! Open your eyes and your mind to other possibilities! Both USA and europe are to blame, yes even Netherlands. Or do you forget about "blood diamonds", it was the dutch and the greed of De beers.. In the end it's always the greed of the western companys the ones to blame..
They only wen to Libya because of the slaughter of civilians, and because it was right on Europe's doorstep. Same reason why NATO intervened in the Balkans.
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On September 12 2012 06:10 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move. To replace it with another dictatorship and an semi-Islamist one at that (in fact, the primary party is a former terrorist group... ), while over the course of 20 years turning one of the better countries in the developing world into a chaotically hopeless shithole. If Hussein was a Saud or Mubarak, we would be best pals with him to this day. But anyone, especially in one of the world's most strategic reasons and near Israel, that is gaining in power, is deemed a threat our domination and power in the Mideast, and not under our grip needs to go. Plain and simple. Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:09 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:59 Sanctimonius wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal. That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about. Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities. Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change. Without the sanctions and Iraq War, it probably would be. Just an FYI: It was the sanctions that buried and collapsed the Iraqi economy.
You are not well informed, Saddam was best friend with the USA! He had american airplanes and guns!
They were best buds, it was the USA that made him what he is, because he fought a common enemy, Iran! Same with Osama, you made him!
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On September 12 2012 06:09 Dr_Jones wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On September 12 2012 05:49 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 05:43 Dr_Jones wrote:On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote:
Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv. Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over... RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over... Number of dead does not define the importance of an event. For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died. On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out. There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental. You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important. There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember. You misunderstand my post, but that's ok. I'm not saying we shouldn't mourn those who were killed in 9/11, nor am I trying to take anything away from its importance. BUT there is a point to be made about why we care so much about this event, which directly affected a very small part of the world population, when we completely disregard world poverty and hunger on a massive scale, which affects hundreds of millions of people. We've blinded by government discourse on security and as such disregard the bigger, more real threats to the human race. Just look at global warming, nobody seems to care much about it, even though it is arguably the biggest current and future threat to billions of people. This was my point, and I do not think I'm pissing on someone's grave by raising it.
The question isn't which deserves to be spoken about more, the question is why raise it now?
It has been exactly 11 years ago, people stop, people remember.
Then you come in and talk about what people should value more.
Is anyone refusing to talk about global warming because of 9/11? No. So why do you feel the need to point this out in a 9/11 topic?
There is a time and a place for everything. Paint it as passive as you like, but there is a reason you bring this up in a 9/11 thread. It isn't because you want more attention to global warming, you could start a global warming thread, it is because you dislike the attention that 9/11 gets..
For the record, all year round people probably talk a great deal more about global warming than they do 9/11. One day out of the year, people stop and remember. You really have to come walking in and start talking about global warming of all things?
What if I think 9/11 is more important? Should I go into every global warming thread and order people to talk about 9/11?
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On September 12 2012 06:08 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:06 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to. How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's? Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism. See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism. Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case. islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree) Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
I am English, so to me the IRA was a terrorist organisation. When I think of the word 'terrorist' I do not think arab (as someone above said) because I knew of the IRA first. To some Irish people the IRA would not be a terrorist organisation. Some Spanish people may associate terrorism with Basque people. Many Americans or young (<20) europeans would probably associate terrorism with Arabs.
In the end, Good vs Evil is usually just Us vs Them.
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On September 12 2012 06:11 Tewks44 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:09 fellcrow wrote:On September 12 2012 06:03 calgar wrote:On September 12 2012 06:00 fellcrow wrote:My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before. This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention? I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed. so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed? I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
Not at all. What I'm saying right now is that I am 100% sure that the U.S. has commited 9/11 like atrocities in the past and actually unclassified the information so it is viewable to the general public. I'm calling you uninformed cause you were unaware of that fact. Go research it, you'll find it. A simple google search will probably get you well on your way to a more thorough explanation and links to the actually government documents themselves.
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On September 12 2012 03:45 sc2superfan101 wrote:
in general, the US does not specifically target civillians. furthermore, the US rarely uses terror (an act of violence designed to intimidate/terrorize civillain populations) in order to protest/resist policy that we do not like. do we make war upon other countries? yes. do civillians die when this happens? yes. have there been some attrocities committed by our troops? absolutely. is it the general policy of the US armed forces to commit these attrocities? no.
The U.S. military has a pretty shady track record when it comes to that in fact...
Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki in WW2
then you have the USAF's orders to attack refugee columns during the korean war (because they feared north korean soldiers might be infiltrating them)
then you have that temple town, whose name I cannot remember, during Viet-Nam, where more than five thousand civilians were bombed... It's disheartening stuff really.
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Wow, I can't believe the amount of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that are on Teamliquid. The amount of records and information taken from that day would have (I thought) been enough to convince most that it was a genuine terrorist attack. What, do people really not believe that terrorists are capable of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Nah, they're not intelligent enough to do that... Osama really didn't have anything to do with the attacks. It was all just a big misunderstanding...
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On September 12 2012 06:13 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:10 GizmoPT wrote:On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote:I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening. Reichstag should mean something to you. Are you implying that he should understand antisemitism since he's from Germany where Hitler ruled? If yes, that's really pathetic.
no bro.. he is talking about this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
Meanwhile, investigation of the Reichstag fire continued, with the Nazis eager to uncover Comintern complicity. In early March 1933, three men were arrested who were to play pivotal roles during the Leipzig Trial, known also as the "Reichstag Fire Trial": Bulgarians Georgi Dimitrov, Vasil Tanev and Blagoi Popov. The Bulgarians were known to the Prussian police as senior Comintern operatives, but the police had no idea how senior they were: Dimitrov was head of all Comintern operations in Western Europe.
Historians disagree as to whether Van der Lubbe acted alone or whether the arson was planned and ordered by the Nazis, then dominant in the government themselves, as a false flag operation. The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains an ongoing topic of debate and research.
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On September 12 2012 06:12 Bahamut1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:08 ImFromPortugal wrote:On September 12 2012 06:06 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote:
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is:
War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to. How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's? Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism. See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism. Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case. islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree) Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization? Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
If we are playing the numbers game then I raise you Hiroshima.
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On September 12 2012 06:10 shell wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:01 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:59 shell wrote:On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote:
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died?
How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11.
Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity.
Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted.
Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes?
Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral. THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists. I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay? No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move. Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country.. And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc.. they don't have oil right? The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after. Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed. do you know me? do you know what i have in my bedroom? Maybe you have one of hitler? wasn't your grandfather the one that told the nazis where to find Anne Frank? duh.. Why are you making this personal? I'm just saying that Lybia might not be Netherlands or Portugal but they were clearly one of the best African countrys by all the standarts.. and now how are they? did people's lives got better? If the USA/Nato interventions were made because of the citizens why didn't they save all of Africa? Why only Lybia? Why not Ruanda where 3 millions people were butchered? Why not Somalia that is a lawless country since 20 years ago? It's always about money, never about the people! Open your eyes and your mind to other possibilities! Both USA and europe are to blame, yes even Netherlands. Or do you forget about "blood diamonds", it was the dutch and the greed of De beers.. In the end it's always the greed of the western companys the ones to blame..
Yes...
Blood diamonds. You're going to pick something to attack my country over and you pick blood diamonds.
I would have gone with the fact that we are mainly responsible for Pakistan having nukes, but oke, blood diamonds. Ooh, I feel so bad now, you got me.
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On September 12 2012 06:15 fellcrow wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:11 Tewks44 wrote:On September 12 2012 06:09 fellcrow wrote:On September 12 2012 06:03 calgar wrote:On September 12 2012 06:00 fellcrow wrote:My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before. This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention? I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed. so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed? I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is. Not at all. What I'm saying right now is that I am 100% sure that the U.S. has commited 9/11 like atrocities in the past and actually unclassified the information so it is viewable to the general public. I'm calling you uninformed cause you were unaware of that fact. Go research it, you'll find it. A simple google search will probably get you well on your way to a more thorough explanation and links to the actually government documents themselves.
Do you really think a monkey like Bush is able to plan the whole 9/11 thing? Come on.
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On September 12 2012 06:13 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2012 06:10 GizmoPT wrote:On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote:I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening. Reichstag should mean something to you. Are you implying that he should understand antisemitism since he's from Germany where Hitler ruled? If yes, that's really pathetic.
no im implying that false flags are a known tactic
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EPT
