Today marks 11 years from the point when the WTCs fell. I remember the day, it was like any other. I woke up, went to the bus stop, and it wasn't until I got to school that I was informed of what happened. Being a middle-schooler at the time, I didn't really understand the implications, or should I say, the greater impact and significance of such a terrible act. For weeks after, all I would see on TV were scenes of bombings as the US retaliated immediately.
Eleven years later, we are still at war and heavily involved in the middle east area.
There is no doubt that what the bombers did on 9/11 was a horrible act, a great crime against humanity. But there have been many thoughts that I have pondered in the past - thoughts and questions concerning "terrorism". The word is clearly one of the most misinterpreted and misused (anonymous anyone?). Us here at TL are constantly reminded how sketchy and elusive the idea of terrorism is to really understand.
I was having a conversation with a friend the other day, partly stemming from a recent thread about absolute moralism. We both agreed that, for the most part, morals are very subjective. A person's moral and outlook on life (which would encompass their perspectives in many areas, eg. cultural, philosophical, etc.) is greatly influenced by their upbringing. Their upbringing is to a huge extent determined, not only by the obvious factors of parents and peers, but the geographical location they just happened to be born in. Only a couple crimes (murder, rape, etc) could be universally recognized to be morally wrong by anyone with common sense and a healthy conscious.
So, assuming that 90% of people from anywhere around the world may have this sort of common sense (the 90% is just a random number that sounded reasonable to me), lets talk about terrorism, and how things may be perceived from different areas and cultures of the world.
When we hear the word terrorism in Western society, the usual picture that comes to mind for westerners is along the lines of a suicide-bomber, an arab person with an Islamic background.
What about for people in their culture? What do these people think of us, the Westerners, and the ways in which we attempt to control and dominate so many aspects of life? When we invade their countries, and innocent civilians end up dying, do the affected families of the victims consider us to be terrorists? And if so, are they justified in thinking that? (My view is yes, we are doing just as much terrorizing in a sense if we are killing innocent victims, regardless of intent and the political motivation behind it).
I'm curious to hear what other people think of this sort of paradoxical use and notion of terrorism. I am obviously not equating what happened on 9/11 to accidental civilian killings, but in the end, what is significant is that innocent people are dying.
Is it really okay for this kind of stuff to be happening, even if it's for a greater end-cause?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- EDIT! Not really surprising, but there have been some commentary concerning 9/11 conspiracy theories. We can try to talk about this in a civil manner. As ludicrous as it may sound, no possibility can be thrown out the window completely without concrete proof. Just out of interest, I am going to post a quick poll to see what the general TL consensus is regarding these theories.
Poll: What do you think happened in 9/11?
Secretive government act (45)
51%
Terrorist bombing (44)
49%
89 total votes
Your vote: What do you think happened in 9/11?
(Vote): Terrorist bombing (Vote): Secretive government act
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future!
"Is it really okay for this kind of stuff to be happening, even if it's for a greater end-cause?"
That's subjective in itself. To many people have differing opinions on what even went down on that day and since it never really had a solid investigation/no one seems to care I don't really bring much about it up, to much ignorance through the fog of everything.
People are animals, they followed revenge and invaded on that principle "we got attacked, we attack" and although to everyone who researched the topic or even has their head above the sand knows that Iraq had nothing to do with it and it was a mainly Saudis involved it didn't matter at the time because America wanted blood.
The reason America is invading anything has direct correlation thus far with oil/political standing so I assume all of these people feel violated. I say America but I should specifiy the West because Canada and Nato are involved as well (although not to the same extent)
My opinion? My opinion doesn't matter nor does anyone on the outside and that's how it is. Move along.
So my issue with things like this is that while I do not disagree that it could be possible that something like this could occur it is that no digging by anyone has been done into finding out if this is true or not... Like other then ... the 9/11 comission it just hasn't been researched enough.
I would hold back conspiracy theories until an actually full blown real investigation is made into the events that took place (probably will come within the next decade or so). Right now claiming it was an inside job is about as naive and uneducated as claiming you know it wasn't, we're all relatively ignorant as to what happened.
...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
Right now claiming it was an inside job is about as naive and uneducated as claiming you know it wasn't, we're all relatively ignorant as to what happened.
There are tens of thousands of pages of financial records, receipts of things like plane tickets, flying lessons, records of apartment rentals in the US and Germany, documents captured from al-Qaeda, video of the hijackers getting on to the planes, audio of phone calls from the planes describing the hijackings and the hijackers, etc.
Claiming anything other than al-Qaeda did it is either malicious or, as you say, uneducated.
Is it really okay for this kind of stuff to be happening, even if it's for a greater end-cause?
Support for terrorism has gone way down in Muslim countries, apparently they aren't too hot on the idea of slaughtering infidels when there's actual consequences for it.
Like this kinda shit... oh they're mad that some Dutch film is allegedly being produced in America (probably by Jooooooos, by the "thinking" of the idiot masses), so let's go storm the embassy walls. Too many Muslims get angry because their beliefs and feelings are oh so special and they feel like they can do whatever they want about it. Osama bin Laden hated the US because we saved Saudi Arabia from Saddam Hussein in 1991 and we're infidels so it's okay to kill us for setting our dirty feet on the holy sand dunes of the Arabian Peninsula. Give me a break.
Eventually this kind of violent xenophobic arrogance turns into hijacking planes and attacking airline terminals and then blowing up buses and restaurants and later still flying planes into buildings. There needs to be consequences for it, people in the Middle East need to realize that bad shit's gonna happen to them if they do bad shit to others.
in general, the US does not specifically target civillians. furthermore, the US rarely uses terror (an act of violence designed to intimidate/terrorize civillain populations) in order to protest/resist policy that we do not like. do we make war upon other countries? yes. do civillians die when this happens? yes. have there been some attrocities committed by our troops? absolutely. is it the general policy of the US armed forces to commit these attrocities? no.
that is the big difference between the "terrorists" and the US. we throw our weight around, we fuck shit up sometimes when we're pressed, but we don't cross the line into spreading terror. how often are American generals calling for suicide bombings of school buses and civillian airliners? how often is the US kidnapping al-Jazeera reporters and beheading them? there is a very large difference between making war and between engaging in terrorism.
furthermore, the US armed forces are considered a legitimate military force, backed by a legitimate government. we can argue all day about the exact nature of US freedoms, and to the exact extent that the US government is legitimate, but it is commonly accepted that the US is a free, democratic nation that generally respects the human rights of both its own people and its enemies. military action that is sanctioned by our government is legal, and is far more legitimate than the actions of an unsanctioned, para-military organization that acts with the specific intent of spreading terror and chaos among civillain populations.
and finally, the terrorists rarely recieve real support from the people they claim to be representing and fighting for. terrorists often use terror against their own population in order to intimidate people into providing support/shelter for more terrorists. it is a myth that there is widespread support for the terrorists, and it is a myth that the terrorists are fighting for any realistic, noble goal. they want power for themselves and nothing else.
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
Right now claiming it was an inside job is about as naive and uneducated as claiming you know it wasn't, we're all relatively ignorant as to what happened.
There are tens of thousands of pages of financial records, receipts of things like plane tickets, flying lessons, records of apartment rentals in the US and Germany, documents captured from al-Qaeda, video of the hijackers getting on to the planes, audio of phone calls from the planes describing the hijackings and the hijackers, etc.
Claiming anything other than al-Qaeda did it is either malicious or, as you say, uneducated.
There are a lot of anomalies that also occur, call it being a "tin foil hat" but I've studied history well enough to find out most events that have coincidental and anomalies occur often times have other things at work.
This again though isn't a debate on whether it is an inside job (as I alluded to during my first post) but I will remain behind the statement that blindly trusting data while other data sits contradicting is as naive as blindly denying any relevant data (such as the things you posted) just because the "big brother" government is bad.
We need more information and research before we even begin to find out what occurred and whether or not you believe that is up for you to decide.
On the morality issue I would say that "an eye for an eye" fits the example the West is displaying in the Middle East, also the actions of the West are only growing the terrorist network as we've seen a giant influx of terrorism activities in the last few years but as a poster previously stated who was doing a thesis on terrorism (in anon thread I believe) the definition is being absued a bit and we can just name it all asymetrical warfare.
Is it really okay for this kind of stuff to be happening, even if it's for a greater end-cause?
Support for terrorism has gone way down in Muslim countries, apparently they aren't too hot on the idea of slaughtering infidels when there's actual consequences for it.
Provide data? All I've seen is the massive influx of insurgents joining the cause and a network which has gained in size expanding from the Middle East to Africa and some parts of Asia/Europe.
BTW I simply just googled "terrorism is growing" and this is the first link with a lot more as I didn't have any specific ones off the top of my head but I keep hearing terrorism is growing.
This leaves for debate as to whether terrorism is growing or the term is broadening, if terrorism is growing that is one thing but if we begin to broaden the term of terrorism to mean different things that is a very very very bad thing as it begins to simplify the world as "good guys/bad guys" in the eyes of the public and they begin to blindly follow laws because the big bad terrorists will get them.
moral thinking is not a part of politics (atleast in my opinion), so the question "is it ok?" is irrelevant. I guess the 9/11 attack and the subsequent middle East military campaign are largely a fight for power and control over strategically important regions of the world. Terrorism in far eastern countries like Indonesia for example, is a fight between laicism/secularism and clericalism as society models. In short, I don't think that terrorism is a question of morality, but more a result of power struggles between or in societies.
Of course many people in invaded/occupied countries hate the west, that's what happens if you kill 100 000s of people.
Oh and as Nemesis already pointed out, the opinion of the citizens is not of any importance.
On September 12 2012 03:32 GizmoPT wrote: it was a false flag wake up terrorism is fabricated
Rofl. People like you are the ones who need to "wake up". Turn off the computer and experience real life for once instead of sitting at home, living in a virtual reality.
On September 12 2012 03:32 GizmoPT wrote: it was a false flag wake up terrorism is fabricated
Rofl. People like you are the ones who need to "wake up". Turn off the computer and experience real life for once instead of sitting at home, living in a virtual reality.
As I said previously, although he is obviously naive and suffers from the effect of ONLY grabbing data that supports his own theory it is rather naive to simply make ad hominem attacks about him. A lot is left unknown thus far and from your response it is obvious you simply just believe what you hear (which is great in a perfect world, but obviously this is not that) but we really should not turn this thread into a "did 9/11 happen" because people from both sides (believers and denying parties) just get into a shouting match as to who is more patriotic and smart etc etc.
Let's keep this on morality at least for the first 10 or so pages.
Yeah the whole terror thing is being blown out of proportion by those who benefit from it, that much i think everyone can agree with. Anything less is just blind patriotism.
The more suprising thing is how everyone was so suprised that it happened. Is the American people severly uninformed about their past and recent international actions? The betrayal of the United states to the al-Quaeda was obviously big enough to generate generations of pure hatred. For those who are clueless+ Show Spoiler +
al-Quaeda was created and trained in Pakistan during the cold war to combat the Sovjet. When the war was over they were abandoned and USA went to support India who was having long time hostilities with Pakistan, obviously al-Quada went bonkers on the USA hate. (not the whole story but you can prolly read up on it somewhere).
why are people so obsessed with terrorism and 9/11, 11 years later, no major terrorist attacks in years yet we are still under threat? right?
...right?
I don't even think anyone knows what the 'end cause' you speak off is anymore. We haven't been attacked in years, loss of life has been comparativley low (every year you have a one in three point five million chance of dying in a terrorist attack) its all exceptionally sensationalised in the grand scheme of things.
Edit - Noak - +1. Wait, how did these groups become armed? Oh right, we gave them weapons to fight the Soviets, OK it makes sense now. The fact it is so hard for most people in the west to link events together is amazing..
i cant believe people jsut random point the finger at muslim people becuase your government says it was them nobody takes the time to look into the situation and compare evidence that has been given on the matter you would rather nod your head at everything your told and just blame people. this is the type of thinking that makes me have no hope in the human race
On the morality issue I would say that "an eye for an eye" fits the example the West is displaying in the Middle East, also the actions of the West are only growing the terrorist network as we've seen a giant influx of terrorism activities in the last few years but as a poster previously stated who was doing a thesis on terrorism (in anon thread I believe) the definition is being absued a bit and we can just name it all asymetrical warfare.
What giant influx of terrorism activities? Muslim terrorists are fighting Muslim governments more than they're fighting us these days.
Also asymmetrical warfare targets military. Driving a two-ton truck full of high explosives into a market and blowing it up because it's a Shiite market or a Sunni market is not asymmetrical warfare or getting revenge on the occupiers, it's a war crime.
Sounds like standard government boilerplate to me. South America has been a "growing" terrorism spot for the last ten years and it's never really grown into a real problem. Western Africa is a growing problem because the governments are (mostly) weak and that's the last place they have to run to, the Middle East and Pakistan and Afghanistan aren't the safest places to operate anymore. Eastern Africa was a growing problem until Ethiopia and Kenya and Uganda and the other countries with half-decent governments there started seriously fighting it.
Provide data? All I've seen is the massive influx of insurgents joining the cause and a network which has gained in size expanding from the Middle East to Africa and some parts of Asia/Europe.
They used to do a lot of polling of Arabs / Muslims but they seem to not do so much recently:
On September 12 2012 03:32 GizmoPT wrote: it was a false flag wake up terrorism is fabricated
Rofl. People like you are the ones who need to "wake up". Turn off the computer and experience real life for once instead of sitting at home, living in a virtual reality.
you are the one living in a fabricated society think outside the box i simply like to know how stuff works and not simply accepting what im told
On September 12 2012 03:56 Young Terran wrote: i cant believe people jsut random point the finger at muslim people becuase your government says it was them nobody takes the time to look into the situation and compare evidence that has been given on the matter you would rather nod your head at everything your told and just blame people. this is the type of thinking that makes me have no hope in the human race
This is a really poor example but I couldn't think of a better one so I apologize for the offense this will surely bring but it is the best comparison I could make knowledge of history.
A lot of people have condemned Germans (the people not the party) as horrible horrible people for allowing the NAZI party attempt to exterminate an entire race of people and not standing up against it but the people quite possibly didn't have all of the information, many stated they had no idea about the camps and when propaganda comes into play you get "Jews aren't human" "muslims are terrorists" it dehumanizes people.
So no I'm not saying America or the West are on the same level as the Third Reich, but I am saying that it has comparable traits such as blind faith by the people etc. I mean hell I'm pretty pro-muslim in the sense I have no bias against them but after getting it drilled into my head for years I still get this "sense" everytime I see one in the back of my head and then I throw it aside and say in my head how I'm being a bigot.
So kinda to close I think people follow blindly becaucse they're conditioned like a herd of cattle to do so, it isn't exactly their fault. Also "milgram experiment" look it up, people do crazy things when authority commands it.
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
What if you were one of those who was going to die in the bomb blast? I agree with the other guy, and to me, you seem like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand because he is afraid to acknowledge the evils that exist in this world.
And to the others who insinuate that this whole thing was made up/ executed by America in order to further some other sort of agenda is damn-near the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
Yeah the whole terror thing is being blown out of proportion by those who benefit from it, that much i think everyone can agree with. Anything less is just blind patriotism.
The more suprising thing is how everyone was so suprised that it happened. Is the American people severly uninformed about their past and recent international actions? The betrayal of the United states to the al-Quaeda was obviously big enough to generate generations of pure hatred. For those who are clueless+ Show Spoiler +
It's blind 'insight' to claim that terrorism was or is blown out of proportion and if you don't agree you're just being blindly patriotic. How many hundreds of thousands of people have been killed by terrorists the last ten years?
US never supported al Qaeda, US supported Afghan muhajideen. Osama = Arab. Osama's organization = Arab. Pakistani ISI did not work with Arabs either. Osama bin Laden said himself that he was mad at the US because we 'occupied' the holy soil of Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War and kept occupying it with our bases there after.
A lot of people have condemned Germans (the people not the party) as horrible horrible people for allowing the NAZI party attempt to exterminate an entire race of people and not standing up against it but the people quite possibly didn't have all of the information, many stated they had no idea about the camps and when propaganda comes into play you get "Jews aren't human" "muslims are terrorists" it dehumanizes people.
If you do some research you'll discover that most Germans did know what was going on and were fine with it.
On September 12 2012 03:32 GizmoPT wrote: it was a false flag wake up terrorism is fabricated
Rofl. People like you are the ones who need to "wake up". Turn off the computer and experience real life for once instead of sitting at home, living in a virtual reality.
you are the one living in a fabricated society think outside the box i simply like to know how stuff works and not simply accepting what im told
If I were you, I would put all that energy into trying to stop the wars caused by 9/11.
Whether it was an inside job or not, it is too late to make that big of an effect should you prove it to be true. So please, stop wasting your time being a sheep to conspiracy theories and actually try to help people in the Third World being affected.
On September 12 2012 03:32 GizmoPT wrote: it was a false flag wake up terrorism is fabricated
Rofl. People like you are the ones who need to "wake up". Turn off the computer and experience real life for once instead of sitting at home, living in a virtual reality.
you are the one living in a fabricated society think outside the box i simply like to know how stuff works and not simply accepting what im told
Honestly though people who buy into the controlled demolition theories are quite dumb.
On September 12 2012 03:32 GizmoPT wrote: it was a false flag wake up terrorism is fabricated
Rofl. People like you are the ones who need to "wake up". Turn off the computer and experience real life for once instead of sitting at home, living in a virtual reality.
you are the one living in a fabricated society think outside the box i simply like to know how stuff works and not simply accepting what im told
If I were you, I would put all that energy into trying to stop the wars caused by 9/11.
to stop the wars you've to stop the cause.. tell the US and the UN to mind their own business and leave the other countries alone
On September 12 2012 03:55 Noak wrote: Yeah the whole terror thing is being blown out of proportion by those who benefit from it, that much i think everyone can agree with. Anything less is just blind patriotism.
The more suprising thing is how everyone was so suprised that it happened. Is the American people severly uninformed about their past and recent international actions? The betrayal of the United states to the al-Quaeda was obviously big enough to generate generations of pure hatred. For those who are clueless+ Show Spoiler +
al-Quaeda was created and trained in Pakistan during the cold war to combat the Sovjet. When the war was over they were abandoned and USA went to support India who was having long time hostilities with Pakistan, obviously al-Quada went bonkers on the USA hate. (not the whole story but you can prolly read up on it somewhere).
Well don't forget we, US, supplied and armed them against the Russians in Syria..
On September 12 2012 04:07 zalz wrote: Tinfoils ruin everything.
I hope that everyone who thinks TL people have "above average" intelligence, take a good look at this thread.
Sadly I'm inclined to agree, that this thread even remains up is a huge discredit to the intellectual capacity of the forum. Such silly illogic at play.
My personal opinion on the matter is that the WTC incident was planned, staged by the US government and the owner of the towers, with the support of some media.
This gave legitimacy to Bush and allowed him to go for oil. This made the WTC owner rich. This purged the CIA annoying files.
I really don't believe any investigation will come and prove anything in the next decade, if ever. It's too big. One can't go and ultimately conclude the State was implied in killing its own citizens. I'm being very cynical though, and I do believe that's exactly what happened.
A curious thing, in France, any public debate occuring on the matter can't... actually occur. The whole journalist crew will begin to call people name "theoristist, plotist" (don't know those words in english). They won't let them talk. I've seen basically every french public shows on that matter, and it's always like that : a big passionate mess, where the journalists suddenly become lawyers of the official version and will defend only that side with their very life it seems. Very interesting to look at. They won't even let the people they invited, talk.
I find this, among the weird facts (and BS...) we've all heard about, to be a very curious reaction. No debate can occur in peace about that topic. And we're not even directly concerned by anything, we're in freaking France ! And the people invited are miles from implying anything, they just wanted to talk about their "doubts". Anyway, to me, this general reaction from the media does scream conspiracy.
On September 12 2012 04:12 Murlox wrote: My personal opinion on the matter is that the WTC incident was planned, staged by the US government and the owner of the towers, with the support of some media.
This gave legitimacy to Bush and allowed him to go for oil. This made the WTC owner rich. This purged the CIA annoying files.
I really don't believe any investigation will come and prove anything in the next decade, if ever. It's too big. One can't go and ultimately conclude the State was implied in killing its own citizens. I'm being very cynical though, and I do believe that's exactly what happened.
A curious thing, in France, any public debate occuring on the matter can't... actually occur. The whole journalist crew will begin to call people name "theoristist, plotist" (don't know those words in english). They won't let them talk. I've seen basically every french public shows on that matter, and it's always like that : a big passionate mess, where the journalists always are on the official version side, and for some reason will try to enforce that view as if it was their own life or something. They won't let the people they invited, talk.
I find this, among the weird facts (and BS...) we've all heard about, to be a very curious reaction. No debate can occur in peace about that topic. To me, this is exactly the behaviour of someone that has something to hide.
ye dude dont question the mainstream media or you are a crazy dumb conspiracy theorist lol
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
What if you were one of those who was going to die in the bomb blast? I agree with the other guy, and to me, you seem like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand because he is afraid to acknowledge the evils that exist in this world.
And to the others who insinuate that this whole thing was made up/ executed by America in order to further some other sort of agenda is damn-near the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
if i was gonna die? well, i guess shit happens. everyone dies, so why on earth would i be so cowardly as to murder someone in some ridiculous attempt to prolong my own life?
i think it is very foolish to let evil have it's way simply because you're afraid to die. i think that would be far more comparable to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
My persnal opinion is that 9/11 was caused by a giant space monster that came and destroyed the towers because he was bored, and then brainwashed the whole world into thinking Arab terrorists did it because he doens't like Beards.
On September 12 2012 04:07 zalz wrote: Tinfoils ruin everything.
I hope that everyone who thinks TL people have "above average" intelligence, take a good look at this thread.
Right, obviously anyone that doesn't believe the 9/11 story issued by an administration financially supported by and composed of people who gained great wealth through the wars it was used to justify, anyone who doesn't blindly accept what that administration and what Popular Mechanics, a magazine primarily funded by advertisements bought by defense contractors, said, must be a COMPLETE IDIOT.
I have a thrice-tested IQ of 145 and it's absolutely asinine to not question the official story of 9/11.
Oh...so many Zeitgeist sheep... You guys are the ones that is destroying the leftist movement (and libertarian to some extent) by yourself. Calling other people gullible and spoon fed when you guys seem to worship a cult like figure whether it is Peter Joseph or Ron Paul.
I agree that the government benefited from 9/11 as well as most of the world. I agree it was predictable. I agree that it is used as propaganda. But for the love of god, please do not derail yourselves.
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
What if you were one of those who was going to die in the bomb blast? I agree with the other guy, and to me, you seem like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand because he is afraid to acknowledge the evils that exist in this world.
And to the others who insinuate that this whole thing was made up/ executed by America in order to further some other sort of agenda is damn-near the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
if i was gonna die? well, i guess shit happens. everyone dies, so why on earth would i be so cowardly as to murder someone in some ridiculous attempt to prolong my own life?
i think it is very foolish to let evil have it's way simply because you're afraid to die. i think that would be far more comparable to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
This is a stupid argument, if instead of a nice mother and kids it was a fat rapist your decision would change? Well in the blas tthere could be hundreds of families just like that maybe its family day.
Ends almost always should justify the means, if I had to kill 3 people to save thousands it wouldn't put past me although I would try to save the 3000 and the 3 if the decision came down to it I would do as needed. That being said if I could offer my own life in place, I may have some contemplating to do because I'm no hero but I think I would kill myself to save thousands of people but then the question arises what about hundreds? How much are you willing to sacrifice?
I dunno it's all debatable personally I would though.
On September 12 2012 04:18 Shiragaku wrote: Oh...so many Zeitgeist sheep... You guys are the ones that is destroying the leftist movement (and libertarian to some extent) by yourself. Calling other people gullible and spoon fed when you guys seem to worship a cult like figure whether it is Peter Joseph or Ron Paul.
There are extremists on each side.
All I want is for a justifiable investigation to be placed on 9/11. Do I think it was terrorists or do I think it was a bomb? I've seen enough arguments on each side to have no real correlated response to that but I want to say that I feel like it is odd that a justifiable look into the events has yet to come up. I think we're all educated enough to understand the 9/11 commission was not suficient in any way shape or form.
So I guess I admit I am ignorant in to the matter but I think to many people "know" everything, whether it is that it was an inside job or the terrorists had to do it etc.
On the morality issue I would say that "an eye for an eye" fits the example the West is displaying in the Middle East, also the actions of the West are only growing the terrorist network as we've seen a giant influx of terrorism activities in the last few years but as a poster previously stated who was doing a thesis on terrorism (in anon thread I believe) the definition is being absued a bit and we can just name it all asymetrical warfare.
What giant influx of terrorism activities? Muslim terrorists are fighting Muslim governments more than they're fighting us these days.
Also asymmetrical warfare targets military. Driving a two-ton truck full of high explosives into a market and blowing it up because it's a Shiite market or a Sunni market is not asymmetrical warfare or getting revenge on the occupiers, it's a war crime.
Sounds like standard government boilerplate to me. South America has been a "growing" terrorism spot for the last ten years and it's never really grown into a real problem. Western Africa is a growing problem because the governments are (mostly) weak and that's the last place they have to run to, the Middle East and Pakistan and Afghanistan aren't the safest places to operate anymore. Eastern Africa was a growing problem until Ethiopia and Kenya and Uganda and the other countries with half-decent governments there started seriously fighting it.
Provide data? All I've seen is the massive influx of insurgents joining the cause and a network which has gained in size expanding from the Middle East to Africa and some parts of Asia/Europe.
They used to do a lot of polling of Arabs / Muslims but they seem to not do so much recently:
True facts, but the irony of this is the Mideast is becoming more and more Islamified. Even formerly strictly-secular Mideastern nations like Iraq and nowadays Egypt are becoming more and more socially and politically Islamic.
If you want to find a strict secular country in the Mideast / N. Africa nowadays, you're pretty much looking at Tunisia, Lebanon (both small and relatively uninfluential nations), Turkey (which is somewhat aloof from Arab affairs), and Israel (which practically hates everyone in the Mideast and vice versa).
The clincher is Egypt. Egypt is the media center of the Arab world, and even beyond. If the Muslim Brotherhood ever gains ACTUAL power (the military still holds most of it) and does what they like with political influence and media, you can color the Mideast one big Islamofascist bulwark.. although it's already heading in that direction.
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
What if you were one of those who was going to die in the bomb blast? I agree with the other guy, and to me, you seem like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand because he is afraid to acknowledge the evils that exist in this world.
And to the others who insinuate that this whole thing was made up/ executed by America in order to further some other sort of agenda is damn-near the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
if i was gonna die? well, i guess shit happens. everyone dies, so why on earth would i be so cowardly as to murder someone in some ridiculous attempt to prolong my own life?
i think it is very foolish to let evil have it's way simply because you're afraid to die. i think that would be far more comparable to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
This is a stupid argument, if instead of a nice mother and kids it was a fat rapist your decision would change? Well in the blas tthere could be hundreds of families just like that maybe its family day.
Ends almost always should justify the means, if I had to kill 3 people to save thousands it wouldn't put past me although I would try to save the 3000 and the 3 if the decision came down to it I would do as needed. That being said if I could offer my own life in place, I may have some contemplating to do because I'm no hero but I think I would kill myself to save thousands of people but then the question arises what about hundreds? How much are you willing to sacrifice?
I dunno it's all debatable personally I would though.
1) i would never trust a terrorist, so even if it was a "fat rapist", i wouldn't be putting blood on my hands. 2) even "fat rapists" don't deserve to be murdered in cold blood.
furthermore, the ends NEVER justify the means, in my opinion (and in the opinion of most of human society). to capitulate and murder one person in some misguided attempt to save thousands or millions would just prove that you can be used by any threat of violence. assuming such a ridiculous scenario actually existed, you would have taken all choice out of your actions. after you've killed a family, what if they ask you to kill another one? what if they ask you to blow up 1,000 people to save 1,000,000?
what if we take a ridiculous scenario to its extreme and say that they've asked you to kill 49% of the population in order to save the other 51%? human lives and their value cannot be boiled down to a simple numbers game, which is why you will see thousands of people risking their lives to save 1 lost hiker.
On September 12 2012 03:56 Young Terran wrote: i cant believe people jsut random point the finger at muslim people becuase your government says it was them nobody takes the time to look into the situation and compare evidence that has been given on the matter you would rather nod your head at everything your told and just blame people. this is the type of thinking that makes me have no hope in the human race
This is a really poor example but I couldn't think of a better one so I apologize for the offense this will surely bring but it is the best comparison I could make knowledge of history.
A lot of people have condemned Germans (the people not the party) as horrible horrible people for allowing the NAZI party attempt to exterminate an entire race of people and not standing up against it but the people quite possibly didn't have all of the information, many stated they had no idea about the camps and when propaganda comes into play you get "Jews aren't human" "muslims are terrorists" it dehumanizes people.
So no I'm not saying America or the West are on the same level as the Third Reich, but I am saying that it has comparable traits such as blind faith by the people etc. I mean hell I'm pretty pro-muslim in the sense I have no bias against them but after getting it drilled into my head for years I still get this "sense" everytime I see one in the back of my head and then I throw it aside and say in my head how I'm being a bigot.
So kinda to close I think people follow blindly becaucse they're conditioned like a herd of cattle to do so, it isn't exactly their fault. Also "milgram experiment" look it up, people do crazy things when authority commands it.
Yes but it is just depressing when i think about the things that go on in the world people say there wars in Afghanistan and iraq and what not but if you actually see whats going on its not a "War" at all its a slaughter i know this doesnt directly explain thigns about 9/11 but there all connected tbh.
When I open this thread and the very first response is a 9/11 conspiracy then I really sort of question why I bothered in the first place. I guess because the small percent of good posters makes up for all the morons?
Then I have to question the OP's intentions in creating this thread. Obviously you won't find many people on TL who will express the opinion that the wars we are engaged in are great. Sure, you will get a couple people, and they will likely be responded into submission. Won't this be a pointless circle jerk, and do people really enjoy that type of discussion? Conspiracies and circle jerking is all I can reasonably expect from these threads.
Edit: I guess the bans will add some merit and enjoyment at least.
Interesting thing is that when I hear the word "terrorism" the first thing that comes to my mind is not about some radical islamist suicide bombers, but about revolutionary movement of late XIX, early XX centuries in Russian Empire. These people, who have committed countless assassinations and assassination attempts (some of them by the means of suicide bombings, btw) on various imperial government officials were highly praised in USSR and there are a lot of places named after some of them even in today's Russia.
On the morality of the acts of terror I'd say they can't be morally justified at any circumstances. The only situation in which physical violence may be morally justified is when applied in retaliation or for the purpose of self-defense (and these terms should never be subejcts to generalizations).
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
What if you were one of those who was going to die in the bomb blast? I agree with the other guy, and to me, you seem like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand because he is afraid to acknowledge the evils that exist in this world.
And to the others who insinuate that this whole thing was made up/ executed by America in order to further some other sort of agenda is damn-near the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
if i was gonna die? well, i guess shit happens. everyone dies, so why on earth would i be so cowardly as to murder someone in some ridiculous attempt to prolong my own life?
i think it is very foolish to let evil have it's way simply because you're afraid to die. i think that would be far more comparable to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
This is a stupid argument, if instead of a nice mother and kids it was a fat rapist your decision would change? Well in the blas tthere could be hundreds of families just like that maybe its family day.
Ends almost always should justify the means, if I had to kill 3 people to save thousands it wouldn't put past me although I would try to save the 3000 and the 3 if the decision came down to it I would do as needed. That being said if I could offer my own life in place, I may have some contemplating to do because I'm no hero but I think I would kill myself to save thousands of people but then the question arises what about hundreds? How much are you willing to sacrifice?
I dunno it's all debatable personally I would though.
1) i would never trust a terrorist, so even if it was a "fat rapist", i wouldn't be putting blood on my hands. 2) even "fat rapists" don't deserve to be murdered in cold blood.
furthermore, the ends NEVER justify the means, in my opinion (and in the opinion of most of human society). to capitulate and murder one person in some misguided attempt to save thousands or millions would just prove that you can be used by any threat of violence. assuming such a ridiculous scenario actually existed, you would have taken all choice out of your actions. after you've killed a family, what if they ask you to kill another one? what if they ask you to blow up 1,000 people to save 1,000,000?
what if we take a ridiculous scenario to its extreme and say that they've asked you to kill 49% of the population in order to save the other 51%? human lives and their value cannot be boiled down to a simple numbers game, which is why you will see thousands of people risking their lives to save 1 lost hiker.
You're arguing whether or not it is possible it isn't happening. I am arguing that in a 100% circumstance where you know, we'll say a god circumstance where some man just says "this will happen" and you know it will so no denying it, then yes it justifys the means. I wouldn't just pop 100 people in the head because a man behind me said "you best or all else DIES!"
All you need to know about who MIGHT have engineered by either of the parties < United States higher ups > / < Middle East "Terrorists" > can be found here : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
No need to go conspiracy crazy on this topic, at this point, it could've been either way, since I'm not in a top position in the CIA or KGB or NSA or any real agency who deals with this kind of information....It would be foolish of me to pick 1 side. One thing is fore sure, neither the middle eastern people nor the americans benefited off the attack/war that followed the attack.
Radical muslims are crazy and US security higher ups apparently have no consideration of human empathy ( from the false flag OFFICIAL document ).... So who knows...
What is the most odd is how defensive people get over the subject when you say "9/11 might have been caused by western higher ups". They say: Oh you crazy conspiracy theory guy...And they dismiss you because you don't BELIEVE in the official story which has been released 400+ days later in that report book. In the best case scenario, it took them 400+days to release that because they tried to cover up all the holes they left in because they are complete incompetent morons.Also the conspiracy guys are crazy really...You go on a youtube video and say: Hey, you know the terrorist might have caused it man...you can't really know. They call you mindless ignorant sheep or whatever.....Oh the humanity !
Also, it's also a good thing to not trust the government....there is the reason why it's called like that.At least let's be agnostic about it...
On September 12 2012 03:40 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote: ...and already the tin foils show up. This thread isn't about who blew up the WTC, this thread is about the morality of what is going on in the middle east. As for my opinion on the topic, well, I'm a means-end kind of guy. If a was given a gun, and was told to shoot a mother of 3 and her kids in order to prevent a bomb from going off in Times Square, I would apologize, then shoot them in the head. Once they were all down, I would shoot each one once more in the head to make sure they were dead. As long as the end justifies the means, we should stay there.
jesus christ if that isn't the most disgusting thing i've heard someone admit in a loooong time...
What if you were one of those who was going to die in the bomb blast? I agree with the other guy, and to me, you seem like an ostrich sticking his head in the sand because he is afraid to acknowledge the evils that exist in this world.
And to the others who insinuate that this whole thing was made up/ executed by America in order to further some other sort of agenda is damn-near the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life.
if i was gonna die? well, i guess shit happens. everyone dies, so why on earth would i be so cowardly as to murder someone in some ridiculous attempt to prolong my own life?
i think it is very foolish to let evil have it's way simply because you're afraid to die. i think that would be far more comparable to an ostrich sticking its head in the sand.
This is a stupid argument, if instead of a nice mother and kids it was a fat rapist your decision would change? Well in the blas tthere could be hundreds of families just like that maybe its family day.
Ends almost always should justify the means, if I had to kill 3 people to save thousands it wouldn't put past me although I would try to save the 3000 and the 3 if the decision came down to it I would do as needed. That being said if I could offer my own life in place, I may have some contemplating to do because I'm no hero but I think I would kill myself to save thousands of people but then the question arises what about hundreds? How much are you willing to sacrifice?
I dunno it's all debatable personally I would though.
1) i would never trust a terrorist, so even if it was a "fat rapist", i wouldn't be putting blood on my hands. 2) even "fat rapists" don't deserve to be murdered in cold blood.
furthermore, the ends NEVER justify the means, in my opinion (and in the opinion of most of human society). to capitulate and murder one person in some misguided attempt to save thousands or millions would just prove that you can be used by any threat of violence. assuming such a ridiculous scenario actually existed, you would have taken all choice out of your actions. after you've killed a family, what if they ask you to kill another one? what if they ask you to blow up 1,000 people to save 1,000,000?
what if we take a ridiculous scenario to its extreme and say that they've asked you to kill 49% of the population in order to save the other 51%? human lives and their value cannot be boiled down to a simple numbers game, which is why you will see thousands of people risking their lives to save 1 lost hiker.
You're arguing whether or not it is possible it isn't happening. I am arguing that in a 100% circumstance where you know, we'll say a god circumstance where some man just says "this will happen" and you know it will so no denying it, then yes it justifys the means. I wouldn't just pop 100 people in the head because a man behind me said "you best or all else DIES!"
There was a really good line I read in the Halo series books. I am sure that the book wasn't the first one to believe in the philosophy but it stated that we shouldn't sacrifice people for the greater good but instead we should try to save everyone.
All it takes is one person to make a difference. A single drop of rain can raise a sea level.
C'mon people, use your head. Don't listen to what the media is force feeding you.
The truth is 9/11 was an insde job. Bush needed 9/11 to happen so he could justify invading Iraq and Afghanistan to get his oil and make himself billions of dollars and kill Saddam and Osama, both of whom the Clinton administration had actually supported in the 90s. He was inside an elementary school when the planes hit the World Trade Center, when the plan was for 4 planes to target the 2 towers, the Pentagon, and the White House. Also 9/11 was just a few months after Bush took office.
Coincidence? Hardly.
The Bush administration needed 9/11 to happen to advance their own agenda.
EDIT: there are theories that the planes hit the buildings AND there were some sort of explosives inside the buildings that went off at the same time. So more evidence to show that it might be true.
I think the simple truth is that people fight to win.
Seems pretty obvious, which it is, but it seems people forget the implications of this. The US fights as it does, because it (at least in the minds of the people employing the force) plays to the strength of the US. This is certainly true to a certain extend, as no country can match the US military, which also means that if you wish to fight the US, you do it in a way that plays to your own strengths, not the US'. That's where terrorism (and IEDS, shoot-and-scoots, hiding behind civilians, using kids, etc) stems from – trying to fight on your own terms, playing to your own strengths and exploiting the enemy's weakness.
Which brings me to my answer to the question about the morality of it: I think bringing morality into it is a fundamental mistake, as 99,999% of people will reach a certain point where desperation (whether justified or imagined) overrules any moral scruples you may have. I'm an officer of the army, and I'm pretty familiar with the feeling that neccesity overrules many things. While I've never been even remotely close to doing anything in conflict with the laws of armed conflict, I believe the thoughts have crossed the minds of most people actively involved in an armed conflict. I can easily imagine – if you truly believe that the US is threatening the very existence of the world you life in, or you're convinced your religion dictates it – that civilian casualties become unimportant, even in extreme amounts. The same logic pretty much applied to the cold war, both sides were – at the very extreme end of the spectrum – willing to destroy millions of lives to ensure their own way of life. Terrorism is just the same, only the means of the terrorists are very different, and require a different strategic approach. Its very easy for me (and the rest of us in here) to claim the moral high ground, because its perfectly possible for us to respect humans rights and the laws of armed conflict while still winning the conflict. However, if we look at historical examples, in Denmark we killed a lot of suspected nazi sympathizers (many innocent) during and after WWII, and most countries have similar examples from one time or the other. I'm not saying its RIGHT to kill civilians, but I'm saying that most of us would – in times of crisis – eventually be willing to resort to it.
In short: The more desperate you get, the more the ends justify the means, and the easiest way (well, pretty much the only way) to ”defeat” the US is through terrorism. While you could argue for and against the morality of fighting civilians, in the end it means very little.
This is going to sound like highly controversial and it really isn't.
Terrorism is not that big of a deal, statistically speaking.
The odds of you or any of your loved ones dying to a terrorist related attack is infinitesimal.
When it happens it's very in your face and very emotional, kind of like any major disaster, like a plane crash or earthquake, etc. People greatly over-react and politicians use to to grandstand and demagogue.
In the grand scheme of things though, it really isn't that big of a danger and the amount of time, engery, and money we as a society are dedicating to it is ridiculously out of whack.
But yeah, WTC7 is way to obvious ^^. You can easily justify that by saying they wanted to get rid of a ton of important documents which should've been made public in the near future..
anyway whats all the fuss u make when ur civilians die when u killed +/- 200k at hiroshima nagasaki hell its just 2k people that died more have died in other events and none of them have gathered as much coverage as 9/11 NEVER FORGET OMGOMG
Everything about all of this is so depressing. Humanity is descending in a downward spiral of shitness and greed and apathy and submission and you're not allowed to think outside the box and if you dare to criticize something that is difficult to stop you are immature and if you dare to dare you are told to suck it up and you have always to choose a side and be a fucking moron about it and if you dare to value people you're not supposed to you might just die because what the fuck we need more money and we are not allowed to think that everyone deserves to eat we are told that poverty and huger are natural and there is nothing to stop it nothing to stop the hate and there is nothing to stop the war and while I was writing this message 900 people died of hunger and I'm not supposed to give a flying fuck because well, it's 9/11's 11th annniversary.
9/11 is like the CT holiday of the year. Everyone out of the wood work. Now we just need to be called sheeple a bit more and told we need to 'research' better to know the truth only they and a select few have figured out. Facts opposing that view are 'manufactured by the higher ups' and their lack of facts is proof of their ideas. This ::insert random youtube video:: will explain it to us though.
As for ends justifying the means, that really is determined by each individual person. What number is a reasonable trade off for life? Is one hundred 85 year olds worth killing to save 10 babies? How many rapists to save a little girl? Killing one person to save 1,000. Each person has their own threshold, but I guess the real question would be what would you sacrifice your life for. It's easy to sacrifice others, what is your worth in other peoples lives?
On September 12 2012 04:59 dp wrote: 9/11 is like the CT holiday of the year. Everyone out of the wood work. Now we just need to be called sheeple a bit more and told we need to 'research' better to know the truth only they and a select few have figured out. Facts opposing that view are 'manufactured by the higher ups' and their lack of facts is proof of their ideas. This ::insert random youtube video:: will explain it to us though.
Education: Wikipedia/YouTube Philosophy: YouTube. Politics: John Stewart/Alex Jones Humor: 9gag.
On September 12 2012 04:59 dp wrote: 9/11 is like the CT holiday of the year. Everyone out of the wood work. Now we just need to be called sheeple a bit more and told we need to 'research' better to know the truth only they and a select few have figured out. Facts opposing that view are 'manufactured by the higher ups' and their lack of facts is proof of their ideas. This ::insert random youtube video:: will explain it to us though.
Education: Wikipedia/YouTube Philosophy: YouTube. Politics: John Stewart/Alex Jones Humor: 9gag.
And we call it "thinking outside the box."
While true to describe many of those people, it's almost insulting to include Jon Stewart in with these theories. The guy is actually a reasonable, intelligent human being.
you should make a poll in the OP about people stance on 9/11 (pro.Government vs proConspiracy); it would be at least interesting since many people here base their believe on the 'fact' that (many) other people share the same believes.
ones believe is strengthened by numbers and nothing else.
On September 12 2012 04:59 dp wrote: 9/11 is like the CT holiday of the year. Everyone out of the wood work. Now we just need to be called sheeple a bit more and told we need to 'research' better to know the truth only they and a select few have figured out. Facts opposing that view are 'manufactured by the higher ups' and their lack of facts is proof of their ideas. This ::insert random youtube video:: will explain it to us though.
Education: Wikipedia/YouTube Philosophy: YouTube. Politics: John Stewart/Alex Jones Humor: 9gag.
And we call it "thinking outside the box."
Education: What government wants you to know Philosophy: What government wants you to think Politics: What government wants you to hear Humor: x factor
jokes appart i just see hear all the sides and take my own conclusions its not a bad thing to question stuff
yeah i agree, jon stewart is actually a really smart guy. a lot of people clown on him for many reasons, maybe especially because his show is hosted on comedy central.
if you're intelligent, you are not going to base all your political thoughts and perspectives from watching his show. But it is a refreshing escape from the typical biased bullshit that you will see on the daily from the big news corporations.
The whole purpose of the show, in a sense, is to shed light on contradictions and faults of BOTH political parties (and also, largely, the big news agencies), and to top if off, he does it in a very humorous and entertaining way.
I was taking a communications class a little over a year ago, and my professor stated that in a survey of college-educated middle-20's people, most of them would have rather watched the daily show as their source for news, over watching cnn, fox, etc.
You gotta give jon some merit when he brings big time hosts and politicians on his show for discussions. Everybody that's seen the show before understands that it actually has a really impressive influence on a certain demographic, which i would figure to be around 20-30s aged people (which coincidentally happens to be the age group that seems to vote the least every year)
haha, the fun part is .. at first i was like you guys,,didint believed that shit at all ,what else, we didint wnet on the moon ?,but meh i'Ve heard both side of the story ,and i just went to believe that actually it couldnt been fire or debris so wtf,i WOULD NOT go as far to say it was the bush and his cronnies .1500 architect and engineer and some of them are like the elite of structural and/or demolition engineer actually signed the petition asking for a real investigation ,(thats what actually convinced me )so , yhea i believe it was blown down but by who no idea .That is my opinion ,it changed side over the time,you'll say the tin foil hat falled on my head ...maybe your right ..or maybe i got it off ... anyway good day !
On September 12 2012 04:59 dp wrote: 9/11 is like the CT holiday of the year. Everyone out of the wood work. Now we just need to be called sheeple a bit more and told we need to 'research' better to know the truth only they and a select few have figured out. Facts opposing that view are 'manufactured by the higher ups' and their lack of facts is proof of their ideas. This ::insert random youtube video:: will explain it to us though.
As for ends justifying the means, that really is determined by each individual person. What number is a reasonable trade off for life? Is one hundred 85 year olds worth killing to save 10 babies? How many rapists to save a little girl? Killing one person to save 1,000. Each person has their own threshold, but I guess the real question would be what would you sacrifice your life for. It's easy to sacrifice others, what is your worth in other peoples lives?
I thought you meant "counter terrorism" until I finished reading the entire first paragraph. I bet those kind of CT people come out of the woodwork today too.
Is this thread supposed to be about 9/11 and showing respect for the dead or for debating the impacts of US foreign policy and acceptable collateral damage?
Edit: Or apparently claiming the government knocked down the towers... cause ya'know man, there's like, this vast conspiracy that includes the media, the government and... rich people, to get oil and the US... something or other and the thing... false flag!
Personally, as a Brit my first thought for terrorism isn't the Arab terrorist, rather it's the IRA. Thankfully I grew up at the tail end of it but we're still living with the legacy of the Troubles in Ireland and the IRA and their war on the Brits - they did nearly kill Maggie Thatcher, and weren't too fussy about who got caught in their path (and many would say the British forces were no better).
I would like to point out that other countries have been fighting terrorism for decades before the US declared her war on terror, and frankly the US, through one society or another, gave the IRA support for many, many years. Honestly, the peace process was finalised as much of the support from the US dried up after 9-11, perhaps because supporting people who would bomb innocents seemed a bit less palatable after seeing the destruction it could wreak on home soil. Maybe they were training us up to be good allies in fighting terrorism in other countries, eh?
[/QUOTE]I thought you meant "counter terrorism" until I finished reading the entire first paragraph. I bet those kind of CT people come out of the woodwork today too.
Is this thread supposed to be about 9/11 and showing respect for the dead or for debating the impacts of US foreign policy and acceptable collateral damage?[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone has a clue anymore. It was quickly derailed by the conspiracy nuts and is just a back and forth of that. Surprised its still open. There was a really nice post from some guy in Denmark about how the lines of morality and means are blurred in desperate situations however.
I doubt there will be a renewed formal investigation into the 9/11 attacks.
Assume for a moment that there was a renewed investigation. Who would investigate, and what would they be investigating?
Would they assume various "conspiracy" theories and look for supporting and contradictory evidence?
Wouldn't it be a "O.K evil government, we're gonna get to the bottom of this!" sort of crusade? (based on the sentiment of the people calling for an investigation)
The average person does not and or does not want to believe that their government is capable of commiting an amoral act of mass murder. They do not want to believe that their supposed light house democracy can be undercut by secret dealings and secret plots they call "false flag events".
So long as the american population has faith in their own nation, emotion dictates that such megalithic conspiracy theories be looked upon as insulting and the result of stupidity.
Most people like to think that the world is a nice happy place, that deams can come true, rags to riches, spiritual enlightenment, maybe aliens if we are smart enough, and general honey bee sugar and spice happy go lucky justin bieber halapalooza sorts of stuff... and junk...
So... I don't really see an investigation going forward anytime soon.
On September 12 2012 05:11 jdseemoreglass wrote: Education: Wikipedia/YouTube Philosophy: YouTube. Politics: John Stewart/Alex Jones Humor: 9gag.
And we call it "thinking outside the box."
I would like to remind you and your readers that just because something is on youtube doesn't mean it is NOT credible just as it does not mean it IS credible. The same goes for wikipedia.
John Stweart is sort of a satirical pundit. It's sad but true that many average people get their news from him and people like Stephen Colbert.
Alex Jones is clearly a lunatic who will say anything to frighten you into listening to him more and buying survival equipment from his many online stores/contributors.
As for 9gag, I've never been there myself but have heard of it, although im not sure what humor preferences have to do with being well informed or thinking outside the box.
Criticizing and generalizing in such manners are very common fallacies which instead of using logic and reason to be convincing, rely on emotionally appealing feelings which could very well be misleading.
As for the people having arguments in this thread which are unrelated to the original post:
Those of you claiming to have the full truth or are posting videos with anecdotal and unverified evidences, you are foolish, you are jumping the gun. You're begging to be shown just how ignorant you really are for believing that you have a full picture.
Those of you labeling others as tinfoil hat wearing conspiracy theorists, perhaps you should use reason to dismantle claims instead of stirring your opposition. I read these controversial threads and you all use such great words and have such great rhetoric, but in reality the content is just as hollow as the U.S presidential election in that it is mostly emotional diatribe, and in the end amounts to less difference than there is between a giant douche and a turd sandwhich.
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
So we are going to focus on hunger ( which is more often then not the fault of people getting +6 childeren in African and poor Asian nations) instead of Islamic jihadists which want the entire world to embrace Islam by force?
Lets not do that, I do not consider global hunger a problem, if people in Africa understand that condoms are the way to go Hunger would never be an issue. If Senegal cannot feed 4 million people 15 years ago, they cannot feed 15 million now...
Self made suffering is not something I consider a problem.
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
Number of dead does not define the importance of an event.
For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died.
On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out.
There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental.
You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important.
There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
The answer is fewer than if the regimes that were in place were left to go on.
Or did you think that Afghanistan under the Taliban wasn't stuck in a gruesome civil war? With as many as 15 UN-standard massacres being recorded?
Or that Iraq wasn't one of the most gruesome regimes in the world?
Honestly, Iraq was just a matter of time anyway. When you see what psycho was next in line, you knew that the world couldn't tolerate that cancer in its midsts.
North-Korea, for all its sickness, is relatively contained. Iraq was a loose cannon, and just as bad when it came to human rights.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country..
And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc..
I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
Its not that easy the way the Op displayed the question is wrong to me. There are more options than terrorist or goverment. It coult be nearly anything from a big hoax to an goverment expirement.
We dont have the informations needet we dont have the possibility to see thing for ourselves. We get ignored in this situation ignored by the goverment of the united states.
This and some other things like WTC 7 and the pentagon the whole efficency and the success-rate made me suspicious.
I dont believe anything unti lit makes complete sence to me and is solved properly but since this is denied i can only guess like everybody else. At some point you suspect the us to hide something importand and therefore gets in the focus as an suspect.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country..
And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc..
they don't have oil right?
The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after.
Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed.
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
Number of dead does not define the importance of an event.
For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died.
On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out.
There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental.
You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important.
There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
Crying doesn't make it important. The amount of people that died makes it important. If billions died we'd be afraid for the survival of the species, if only a few people died things would be fine and life would carry on.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
Number of dead does not define the importance of an event.
For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died.
On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out.
There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental.
You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important.
There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
Crying doesn't make it important. The amount of people that died makes it important. If billions died we'd be afraid for the survival of the species, if only a few people died things would be fine and life would carry on.
No, because at that point you are talking about more than numbers, you are talking about a complete breakdown of society and all the distater that comes with that.
So, again, no, the deathtoll isn't that important.
I wouldn't say nuking Japan was trivial just because the Spanish influenza was worse.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
Number of dead does not define the importance of an event.
For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died.
On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out.
There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental.
You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important.
There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
You misunderstand my post, but that's ok. I'm not saying we shouldn't mourn those who were killed in 9/11, nor am I trying to take anything away from its importance. BUT there is a point to be made about why we care so much about this event, which directly affected a very small part of the world population, when we completely disregard world poverty and hunger on a massive scale, which affects hundreds of millions of people. We've blinded by government discourse on security and as such disregard the bigger, more real threats to the human race. Just look at global warming, nobody seems to care much about it, even though it is arguably the biggest current and future threat to billions of people. This was my point, and I do not think I'm pissing on someone's grave by raising it.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
Christians and Jews suffer more oppression on a global scale. Jews take the cake by a long shot.
When did a Jew ever walk into a German bar and blow himself up?
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities.
Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
To replace it with another dictatorship and a semi-Islamist one at that (in fact, the primary party is a former extremist terror group... ), while over the course of 20 years turning one of the better countries in the developing world into a chaotically hopeless shithole. If Hussein was a Saud or Mubarak, we would be best pals with him to this day. But anyone, especially in one of the world's most strategic reasons and near Israel, that is gaining in power, is deemed a threat our domination and power in the Mideast, and not under our grip needs to go. Plain and simple. Just need to find the right opportunity, like false claims of WMDs so a war can be sold to the public lol.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities.
Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
Interestingly enough, without the sanctions and Iraq War, it probably would be. Just an FYI: It was the sanctions that buried and collapsed the Iraqi economy. IIRC, the GDP fell 75-80% over those 12 years. Not to mention the fact that everything else (education, infrastructure, industries, etc.) deteriorated a lot. Considering the fact that most of the economic growth in the world has occurred in the past 30 years, Iraq has obviously missed out due to 30 years of war and sanctions.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country..
And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc..
they don't have oil right?
The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after.
Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed.
do you know me? do you know what i have in my bedroom? Maybe you have one of hitler? wasn't your grandfather the one that told the nazis where to find Anne Frank? duh..
Why are you making this personal? I'm just saying that Lybia might not be Netherlands or Portugal but they were clearly one of the best African countrys by all the standarts.. and now how are they? did people's lives got better?
If the USA/Nato interventions were made because of the citizens why didn't they save all of Africa? Why only Lybia?
Why not Ruanda where 3 millions people were butchered? Why not Somalia that is a lawless country since 20 years ago?
It's always about money, never about the people! Open your eyes and your mind to other possibilities!
Both USA and europe are to blame, yes even Netherlands. Or do you forget about "blood diamonds", it was the dutch and the greed of De beers..
In the end it's always the greed of the western companys the ones to blame..
On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote: I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed?
I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
Christians and Jews suffer more oppression on a global scale. Jews take the cake by a long shot.
When did a Jew ever walk into a German bar and blow himself up?
There is an inherent difference.
Arguing against someone playing the oppression card is like trying to play chess against a pigeon. No matter how good you are at chess, the pigeon is just going to knock over the pieces, shit all over the board, and strut around victoriously.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote: I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening.
Reichstag should mean something to you.
Are you implying that he should understand antisemitism since he's from Germany where Hitler ruled? If yes, that's really pathetic.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country..
And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc..
they don't have oil right?
The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after.
Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed.
do you know me? do you know what i have in my bedroom? Maybe you have one of hitler? wasn't your grandfather the one that told the nazis where to find Anne Frank? duh..
Why are you making this personal? I'm just saying that Lybia might not be Netherlands or Portugal but they were clearly one of the best African countrys by all the standarts.. and now how are they? did people's lives got better?
If the USA/Nato interventions were made because of the citizens why didn't they save all of Africa? Why only Lybia?
Why not Ruanda where 3 millions people were butchered? Why not Somalia that is a lawless country since 20 years ago?
It's always about money, never about the people! Open your eyes and your mind to other possibilities!
Both USA and europe are to blame, yes even Netherlands. Or do you forget about "blood diamonds", it was the dutch and the greed of De beers..
In the end it's always the greed of the western companys the ones to blame..
They only wen to Libya because of the slaughter of civilians, and because it was right on Europe's doorstep. Same reason why NATO intervened in the Balkans.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
To replace it with another dictatorship and an semi-Islamist one at that (in fact, the primary party is a former terrorist group... ), while over the course of 20 years turning one of the better countries in the developing world into a chaotically hopeless shithole. If Hussein was a Saud or Mubarak, we would be best pals with him to this day. But anyone, especially in one of the world's most strategic reasons and near Israel, that is gaining in power, is deemed a threat our domination and power in the Mideast, and not under our grip needs to go. Plain and simple.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities.
Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
Without the sanctions and Iraq War, it probably would be. Just an FYI: It was the sanctions that buried and collapsed the Iraqi economy.
You are not well informed, Saddam was best friend with the USA! He had american airplanes and guns!
They were best buds, it was the USA that made him what he is, because he fought a common enemy, Iran! Same with Osama, you made him!
On September 12 2012 05:39 Bahamut1337 wrote: Simply a Islamic Jihad attack, one of over 15.000 which happened and will continue to happen untill Islam reaches a enlightment period.
Your not save for Islamic Jihad, not in Paris NYC, London, Madrid, Buenos Aires or Tel Aviv.
Mate, more people die every day from hunger than has died in total from terrorist attacks. Maybe you've also been blinded by government speech acts, targeting terrorism as a greater threat to human security than hunger, but hey, at least you have something to lull yourself back to sleep over...
RIP 9/11 victims, but there are bigger disasters out there to get fed up over...
Number of dead does not define the importance of an event.
For example, in all likelihood, you didn't cry today, despite all those thousands of people that died.
On the other hand, if I walk up to you when burying a loved one, and I tell you to stop crying because thousands of people died, you are probably going to smack some of my teeth out.
There is a good reason that nearly everyone can remember where they were on 9/11. It left a lasting impression of people, the kind that few events do. For something to affect people that deeply, on such a scale, makes it monumental.
You can argue that the flew kills more people than World war 1 and 2 combined, but you need to have a certain detachment from basic human discourse to think that just because the casualities are higher, it means something is more or less important.
There are other factors, more crucial ones. Those define what events we do and do not remember.
You misunderstand my post, but that's ok. I'm not saying we shouldn't mourn those who were killed in 9/11, nor am I trying to take anything away from its importance. BUT there is a point to be made about why we care so much about this event, which directly affected a very small part of the world population, when we completely disregard world poverty and hunger on a massive scale, which affects hundreds of millions of people. We've blinded by government discourse on security and as such disregard the bigger, more real threats to the human race. Just look at global warming, nobody seems to care much about it, even though it is arguably the biggest current and future threat to billions of people. This was my point, and I do not think I'm pissing on someone's grave by raising it.
The question isn't which deserves to be spoken about more, the question is why raise it now?
It has been exactly 11 years ago, people stop, people remember.
Then you come in and talk about what people should value more.
Is anyone refusing to talk about global warming because of 9/11? No. So why do you feel the need to point this out in a 9/11 topic?
There is a time and a place for everything. Paint it as passive as you like, but there is a reason you bring this up in a 9/11 thread. It isn't because you want more attention to global warming, you could start a global warming thread, it is because you dislike the attention that 9/11 gets..
For the record, all year round people probably talk a great deal more about global warming than they do 9/11. One day out of the year, people stop and remember. You really have to come walking in and start talking about global warming of all things?
What if I think 9/11 is more important? Should I go into every global warming thread and order people to talk about 9/11?
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
I am English, so to me the IRA was a terrorist organisation. When I think of the word 'terrorist' I do not think arab (as someone above said) because I knew of the IRA first. To some Irish people the IRA would not be a terrorist organisation. Some Spanish people may associate terrorism with Basque people. Many Americans or young (<20) europeans would probably associate terrorism with Arabs.
In the end, Good vs Evil is usually just Us vs Them.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed?
I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
Not at all. What I'm saying right now is that I am 100% sure that the U.S. has commited 9/11 like atrocities in the past and actually unclassified the information so it is viewable to the general public. I'm calling you uninformed cause you were unaware of that fact. Go research it, you'll find it. A simple google search will probably get you well on your way to a more thorough explanation and links to the actually government documents themselves.
On September 12 2012 03:45 sc2superfan101 wrote: in general, the US does not specifically target civillians. furthermore, the US rarely uses terror (an act of violence designed to intimidate/terrorize civillain populations) in order to protest/resist policy that we do not like. do we make war upon other countries? yes. do civillians die when this happens? yes. have there been some attrocities committed by our troops? absolutely. is it the general policy of the US armed forces to commit these attrocities? no.
The U.S. military has a pretty shady track record when it comes to that in fact... Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki in WW2 then you have the USAF's orders to attack refugee columns during the korean war (because they feared north korean soldiers might be infiltrating them) then you have that temple town, whose name I cannot remember, during Viet-Nam, where more than five thousand civilians were bombed... It's disheartening stuff really.
Wow, I can't believe the amount of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that are on Teamliquid. The amount of records and information taken from that day would have (I thought) been enough to convince most that it was a genuine terrorist attack. What, do people really not believe that terrorists are capable of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Nah, they're not intelligent enough to do that... Osama really didn't have anything to do with the attacks. It was all just a big misunderstanding...
On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote: I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening.
Reichstag should mean something to you.
Are you implying that he should understand antisemitism since he's from Germany where Hitler ruled? If yes, that's really pathetic.
Meanwhile, investigation of the Reichstag fire continued, with the Nazis eager to uncover Comintern complicity. In early March 1933, three men were arrested who were to play pivotal roles during the Leipzig Trial, known also as the "Reichstag Fire Trial": Bulgarians Georgi Dimitrov, Vasil Tanev and Blagoi Popov. The Bulgarians were known to the Prussian police as senior Comintern operatives, but the police had no idea how senior they were: Dimitrov was head of all Comintern operations in Western Europe.
Historians disagree as to whether Van der Lubbe acted alone or whether the arson was planned and ordered by the Nazis, then dominant in the government themselves, as a false flag operation. The responsibility for the Reichstag fire remains an ongoing topic of debate and research.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
If we are playing the numbers game then I raise you Hiroshima.
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
Dude Lybya might not have free speech and elections but they had peace, free schools, free health.. what do they have now? A lawless country..
And Somalia? Uganda? Ruanda? Mali? Birmania? Sudan? etc..
they don't have oil right?
The Iraq war happened in 2003. Libya gave up its aims for nukes shortly after.
Could you remind me who was in charge back then? A hint, you have a poster of him hanging over your bed.
do you know me? do you know what i have in my bedroom? Maybe you have one of hitler? wasn't your grandfather the one that told the nazis where to find Anne Frank? duh..
Why are you making this personal? I'm just saying that Lybia might not be Netherlands or Portugal but they were clearly one of the best African countrys by all the standarts.. and now how are they? did people's lives got better?
If the USA/Nato interventions were made because of the citizens why didn't they save all of Africa? Why only Lybia?
Why not Ruanda where 3 millions people were butchered? Why not Somalia that is a lawless country since 20 years ago?
It's always about money, never about the people! Open your eyes and your mind to other possibilities!
Both USA and europe are to blame, yes even Netherlands. Or do you forget about "blood diamonds", it was the dutch and the greed of De beers..
In the end it's always the greed of the western companys the ones to blame..
Yes...
Blood diamonds. You're going to pick something to attack my country over and you pick blood diamonds.
I would have gone with the fact that we are mainly responsible for Pakistan having nukes, but oke, blood diamonds. Ooh, I feel so bad now, you got me.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed?
I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
Not at all. What I'm saying right now is that I am 100% sure that the U.S. has commited 9/11 like atrocities in the past and actually unclassified the information so it is viewable to the general public. I'm calling you uninformed cause you were unaware of that fact. Go research it, you'll find it. A simple google search will probably get you well on your way to a more thorough explanation and links to the actually government documents themselves.
Do you really think a monkey like Bush is able to plan the whole 9/11 thing? Come on.
On September 12 2012 05:59 Finrod1 wrote: I really cant understand how so many people actually believe in this conspirancy bullshit. Thats just so stupid. And all this antisemitism here is really sadening.
Reichstag should mean something to you.
Are you implying that he should understand antisemitism since he's from Germany where Hitler ruled? If yes, that's really pathetic.
no im implying that false flags are a known tactic
On September 12 2012 03:45 sc2superfan101 wrote: in general, the US does not specifically target civillians. furthermore, the US rarely uses terror (an act of violence designed to intimidate/terrorize civillain populations) in order to protest/resist policy that we do not like. do we make war upon other countries? yes. do civillians die when this happens? yes. have there been some attrocities committed by our troops? absolutely. is it the general policy of the US armed forces to commit these attrocities? no.
The U.S. military has a pretty shady track record when it comes to that in fact... Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki in WW2 then you have the USAF's orders to attack refugee columns during the korean war (because they feared north korean soldiers might be infiltrating them) then you have that temple town, whose name I cannot remember, during Viet-Nam, where more than five thousand civilians were bombed... It's disheartening stuff really.
Could you mention something less then 40 year ago?
Did they attack civlians in the recent wars?
Invasion of Grenada No Invasion of Panama No Persian Gulf War No Somali Civil War No Kosovo War No War in Afghanistan No Iraq War No
A lot has changed. During WW2 it was an eye for and eye but still the Allied forces were far far more humane on their enemy then the Axis were.
On September 12 2012 06:17 Epishade wrote: Wow, I can't believe the amount of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that are on Teamliquid. The amount of records and information taken from that day would have (I thought) been enough to convince most that it was a genuine terrorist attack. What, do people really not believe that terrorists are capable of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Nah, they're not intelligent enough to do that... Osama really didn't have anything to do with the attacks. It was all just a big misunderstanding...
well the 911 mastermind is still on trial..
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Trial: 9/11 Mastermind Back Before Guantanamo Bay Judge
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
1 million by the opinion makers! Does that make a good enought ratio for you? 5000/1.000.000 ??
How much is a jew live in muslim lifes? How much is a normal christian? How much for a american?
This is pointless and stupid.
My point is, 1st - Israel is a source of hate and they don't make it easy for forgiveness since they mistreat muslims, put them outside of the wall, continue do expand they colonys against UN and USA "laws", etc.. 2nd - Religion is a source of hate 3rd - USA and UN only act when there is economic interested
Like I said i'm westerner, I like the USA, I don't support terorrism but the world is fucked up and doesn't seem like it's going to get better. Can I atleast tell the truth, like i see it?
this is probably off topic. but one thing about 9/11 that gets overlooked constantly is the people who were on the planes. Its one thing being in a building thats gonna fall and that youre probably gonna die, but to be on a plane that gets hijacked and knowing that its going to crash into a building must be the worst feeling ever. Sure i feel bad for the people/family members of people that were in the towers, but my heart goes out to the people who were on board the planes when they hit the towers
On September 12 2012 06:17 Epishade wrote: Wow, I can't believe the amount of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that are on Teamliquid. The amount of records and information taken from that day would have (I thought) been enough to convince most that it was a genuine terrorist attack. What, do people really not believe that terrorists are capable of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Nah, they're not intelligent enough to do that... Osama really didn't have anything to do with the attacks. It was all just a big misunderstanding...
Yeah, we aren't saying that isn't possible. And yes it is a theory and we choose to believe what we believe the evidence shows. Two people can look at the same evidence and have different conclusions. But are you saying one of the most powerful and technologically advanced goverment agencies in the world couldn't do the same thing? If I told you USSR or Nazi Germany did the same thing, would you be more inclined to believe it's a possible conspiracy?
Please take off your "I love USA" t-shirt. Look at the evidence from an unbiased third party perspective and then make your conclusion. You may say the US goverment is still innocent and believe it was a terrorist attack. AWESOME! That's what you believe. But, for the sake of being a fully informed citizen and in the spirit of freedom and what our founding fathers built your government on and our constitution, please do research and make and informed decision is all I ask for personally.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed?
I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
Not at all. What I'm saying right now is that I am 100% sure that the U.S. has commited 9/11 like atrocities in the past and actually unclassified the information so it is viewable to the general public. I'm calling you uninformed cause you were unaware of that fact. Go research it, you'll find it. A simple google search will probably get you well on your way to a more thorough explanation and links to the actually government documents themselves.
Do you really think a monkey like Bush is able to plan the whole 9/11 thing? Come on.
As funny as it is, the amount of coordination and government involvement that would have to go into the 9/11 conspiracy theory is unbelievable. Here's (as I understand it) the general theory.
Flight 11 and Flight 175 landed in a top secret area where the passengers were executed, meanwhile remote control aircraft/holograms were directed towards the world trade center towers. After the impact the explosives in the tower were detonated. Bombs were later detonated in WTC 7. Secret government agents planted these explosive devices throughout the towers unnoticed.
On September 12 2012 06:10 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
To replace it with another dictatorship and an semi-Islamist one at that (in fact, the primary party is a former terrorist group... ), while over the course of 20 years turning one of the better countries in the developing world into a chaotically hopeless shithole. If Hussein was a Saud or Mubarak, we would be best pals with him to this day. But anyone, especially in one of the world's most strategic reasons and near Israel, that is gaining in power, is deemed a threat our domination and power in the Mideast, and not under our grip needs to go. Plain and simple.
On September 12 2012 06:09 Bahamut1337 wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:59 Sanctimonius wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities.
Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
Without the sanctions and Iraq War, it probably would be. Just an FYI: It was the sanctions that buried and collapsed the Iraqi economy.
You are not well informed, Saddam was best friend with the USA! He had american airplanes and guns!
They were best buds, it was the USA that made him what he is, because he fought a common enemy, Iran! Same with Osama, you made him!
Iran-Iraq War. Nearly everything the Iraqis got was from France and Russia. The US sent... some leftover Huey transport copters from the Vietnam War, and chemical gases that we gave to both countries. Meanwhile, the Iranian military was in some branches the spitting image of a 3rd world country supplied by Uncle Sam. It is certain that during the 70s, the US heavily supplied Iran, and even later in the Iran-Iraq War, supplied them even further, at least publicly. Oddly enough, it didn't help the Iranians turn the tide as in those final couple years is when the deadlock was broken.
The US didn't like either country. Cheerleading for one against the greater enemy doesn't mean "one is an ally, one is the devil", or else we would have never had any issues with Iraq at all regardless of anything, just like with the Shah who we put back into power and was one of the greatest scourges in Iranian history (and we loved him). Your logic is stiflingly contradictory.
Today, I was watching 9/11: the twin towers and the pentagon on the discovery channel. An hour long program where engineers analyzed why the buildings fell and why there were differences between the buildings. 3 minutes spent on building 7; they said that one column had to have collapsed, which led to a progressive collapse. Then they said that's never happened before... In fact, it's not even possible.
Well, color me fucking sold. Scared of terroism because I fear coincidences and seeing things I've never seen before. 0 black boxes recovered. You mean to tell me there's never been a plane that crashed where they couldn't recover the black box until 9/11, and the tally is 4? Sold again.
I hope we start focusing on ever terrorism events around the world and remembering them. This is just tilting. W/e. Bad guys versus good guys, where the bad guys are labeled terrorist, but since it's a matter of perspective, both sides are ultimately viewed as terrorist. At least we have a war on bad guys, because I really enjoy winnable scenarios that are vaguely realistic.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
1 million by the opinion makers! Does that make a good enought ratio for you? 5000/1.000.000 ??
How much is a jew live in muslim lifes? How much is a normal christian? How much for a american?
This is pointless and stupid.
My point is, 1st - Israel is a source of hate and they don't make it easy for forgiveness since they mistreat muslims, put them outside of the wall, continue do expand they colonys against UN and USA "laws", etc.. 2nd - Religion is a source of hate 3rd - USA and UN only act when there is economic interested
Like I said i'm westerner, I like the USA, I don't support terorrism but the world is fucked up and doesn't seem like it's going to get better. Can I atleast tell the truth, like i see it?
Seriously.
I hate it when people think that decisions are independent of economic interest. Almost everything is about money/power. If, lets use US as an example of world police, the US mission is getting rid of totalitarianism and instead replace it with the all-might superior government democracy then why is North Korea and many unstable countries still existing? We could very easily take them out. This War on Terrorism is a false cloak. Widely understood I thought...
EPT
