On September 12 2012 03:45 sc2superfan101 wrote: in general, the US does not specifically target civillians. furthermore, the US rarely uses terror (an act of violence designed to intimidate/terrorize civillain populations) in order to protest/resist policy that we do not like. do we make war upon other countries? yes. do civillians die when this happens? yes. have there been some attrocities committed by our troops? absolutely. is it the general policy of the US armed forces to commit these attrocities? no.
The U.S. military has a pretty shady track record when it comes to that in fact... Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki in WW2 then you have the USAF's orders to attack refugee columns during the korean war (because they feared north korean soldiers might be infiltrating them) then you have that temple town, whose name I cannot remember, during Viet-Nam, where more than five thousand civilians were bombed... It's disheartening stuff really.
Could you mention something less then 40 year ago?
Did they attack civlians in the recent wars?
Invasion of Grenada No Invasion of Panama No Persian Gulf War No Somali Civil War No Kosovo War No War in Afghanistan No Iraq War No
A lot has changed. During WW2 it was an eye for and eye but still the Allied forces were far far more humane on their enemy then the Axis were.
On September 12 2012 06:17 Epishade wrote: Wow, I can't believe the amount of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that are on Teamliquid. The amount of records and information taken from that day would have (I thought) been enough to convince most that it was a genuine terrorist attack. What, do people really not believe that terrorists are capable of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Nah, they're not intelligent enough to do that... Osama really didn't have anything to do with the attacks. It was all just a big misunderstanding...
well the 911 mastermind is still on trial..
Khalid Sheikh Mohammed Trial: 9/11 Mastermind Back Before Guantanamo Bay Judge
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
1 million by the opinion makers! Does that make a good enought ratio for you? 5000/1.000.000 ??
How much is a jew live in muslim lifes? How much is a normal christian? How much for a american?
This is pointless and stupid.
My point is, 1st - Israel is a source of hate and they don't make it easy for forgiveness since they mistreat muslims, put them outside of the wall, continue do expand they colonys against UN and USA "laws", etc.. 2nd - Religion is a source of hate 3rd - USA and UN only act when there is economic interested
Like I said i'm westerner, I like the USA, I don't support terorrism but the world is fucked up and doesn't seem like it's going to get better. Can I atleast tell the truth, like i see it?
this is probably off topic. but one thing about 9/11 that gets overlooked constantly is the people who were on the planes. Its one thing being in a building thats gonna fall and that youre probably gonna die, but to be on a plane that gets hijacked and knowing that its going to crash into a building must be the worst feeling ever. Sure i feel bad for the people/family members of people that were in the towers, but my heart goes out to the people who were on board the planes when they hit the towers
On September 12 2012 06:17 Epishade wrote: Wow, I can't believe the amount of 9/11 conspiracy theorists that are on Teamliquid. The amount of records and information taken from that day would have (I thought) been enough to convince most that it was a genuine terrorist attack. What, do people really not believe that terrorists are capable of hijacking planes and flying them into buildings? Nah, they're not intelligent enough to do that... Osama really didn't have anything to do with the attacks. It was all just a big misunderstanding...
Yeah, we aren't saying that isn't possible. And yes it is a theory and we choose to believe what we believe the evidence shows. Two people can look at the same evidence and have different conclusions. But are you saying one of the most powerful and technologically advanced goverment agencies in the world couldn't do the same thing? If I told you USSR or Nazi Germany did the same thing, would you be more inclined to believe it's a possible conspiracy?
Please take off your "I love USA" t-shirt. Look at the evidence from an unbiased third party perspective and then make your conclusion. You may say the US goverment is still innocent and believe it was a terrorist attack. AWESOME! That's what you believe. But, for the sake of being a fully informed citizen and in the spirit of freedom and what our founding fathers built your government on and our constitution, please do research and make and informed decision is all I ask for personally.
My opinion is that it was a genuine act of terrorism, not from the US government but by the Al Qaeda. Just a personal opinion, I find it really unlikely, or should I say, I can't seem to believe in the slightest bit that the US gov. would be willing to actually pull something like this off, regardless of possible benefits. But I am also aware that nothing has really been proven completely. Lets just hope that we'll see what really happened in the future
You obviously haven't done your research. There have been unclassified documents from the US government stating they have commited similiar crimes to this in the past for there own benefit. 9/11 was the worst imo, but they have done this before.
This thread makes me cringe. Why don't you post some of this "evidence" you mention?
I could easily go grab tons of wiki articles showing it. And I could try and find the actual documents on the official government pages showing im right, but you would still probably be blind like you choose to be. With all do respect, I've done my research, looked at all the evidence and made my own conclusion. If YOU choose to be an informed citizen, do your own research, because I'm not gonna waste my time. I've linked pages before on multiple forums, and people choose to say it's fake, falsified, or whatever reason they wanna come up with. You can research yourself and make your own conclusions if you want to actually be informed.
so if people don't agree with you they're uninformed?
I'm so tired of this conspiracy mentality. A few scientists have said they think 9/11 was an inside job and a portion of the population loves conspiracy theories so they latch on to their teets without even thinking about how absurd the theory actually is.
Not at all. What I'm saying right now is that I am 100% sure that the U.S. has commited 9/11 like atrocities in the past and actually unclassified the information so it is viewable to the general public. I'm calling you uninformed cause you were unaware of that fact. Go research it, you'll find it. A simple google search will probably get you well on your way to a more thorough explanation and links to the actually government documents themselves.
Do you really think a monkey like Bush is able to plan the whole 9/11 thing? Come on.
As funny as it is, the amount of coordination and government involvement that would have to go into the 9/11 conspiracy theory is unbelievable. Here's (as I understand it) the general theory.
Flight 11 and Flight 175 landed in a top secret area where the passengers were executed, meanwhile remote control aircraft/holograms were directed towards the world trade center towers. After the impact the explosives in the tower were detonated. Bombs were later detonated in WTC 7. Secret government agents planted these explosive devices throughout the towers unnoticed.
On September 12 2012 06:10 JudicatorHammurabi wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:56 zalz wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:54 solidbebe wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
I dont really see the point of your post. Just because nearly the whole american nation backlashed and agreed on an invasion in iraq, does that suddenly mean its okay?
No, but removing a totalitarian regime of the worst kind and getting Libya to hand over its nuclear program are two things that make it a decent move.
To replace it with another dictatorship and an semi-Islamist one at that (in fact, the primary party is a former terrorist group... ), while over the course of 20 years turning one of the better countries in the developing world into a chaotically hopeless shithole. If Hussein was a Saud or Mubarak, we would be best pals with him to this day. But anyone, especially in one of the world's most strategic reasons and near Israel, that is gaining in power, is deemed a threat our domination and power in the Mideast, and not under our grip needs to go. Plain and simple.
On September 12 2012 06:09 Bahamut1337 wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:59 Sanctimonius wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:50 Bahamut1337 wrote:
On September 12 2012 05:48 Euronyme wrote: The thing about 9/11 is that what, about 3000 civilians died? How many Iraqi and Afghan civilians have died due to the American occupations? It's tricky to find exact numbers, but let's just settle for a lot more than at 9/11. Now the attacks in Afghanistan at least was some kind of retaliation, but I somehow doubt that it really matters for the families that have been torn apart that had nothing to do with bin Laden. Personally I don't see how objectively the Iraq war was anything but a large scale 9/11 in and of itself. It's a massive war crime and crime against humanity. Yet the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is largely seen as something decent and accepted. Why are the hijackers at 9/11 seen as monsters, while there are countless videos of US soldiers in helicopters laughing about killing children and unarmed civilians that are being treated as heroes? Is this just a form of hate driven and extreme racism?
What I find funny is you blame a nation which gave the people a voice ( democracy) instead of the terrorists who attack markets. ampute the hands of 12 year old boys, and blow up people at a funeral.
THe goal of the US is not occupy and destroy, the fact there is destruction can solely be blamed on the terrorists.
You're being very one-sided there. There are videos of US troops performing atrocities, as well as other groups - Abu Ghraib wasn't 'the terrorists', was it? Nor was the Blackwater scandal.
That's not to say that terrorist groups didn't tear Iraq a new one too, but keep in mind that al Qaida didn't have a presence in Iraq until the US/Allied occupation. Sadly the Iraqi citizens were caught in the middle of a war they didn't ask for and didn't deserve. Afghanistan was about correcting a huge mistake and retaliation for 9-11 - let's not pretend like the hijackers were anything but evil in this, they were willing to kill tens of thousands, wanted a kill-count simply to make a message for their twisted interpretation of Allah. That said, I'm still not sure what Iraq was about.
Note that incidents ( which they are) always happen, and the US and other nations have had enough trials against their own men who commited atrocities.
Also note the real war was over very fast. What is going on now is terrorism / sectarian violence which is largely supported by Iran in the form of weapons and money. Iraq with its massive oil wealth could easily become as rich as Kuwait if this violence would stop for a change.
Without the sanctions and Iraq War, it probably would be. Just an FYI: It was the sanctions that buried and collapsed the Iraqi economy.
You are not well informed, Saddam was best friend with the USA! He had american airplanes and guns!
They were best buds, it was the USA that made him what he is, because he fought a common enemy, Iran! Same with Osama, you made him!
Iran-Iraq War. Nearly everything the Iraqis got was from France and Russia. The US sent... some leftover Huey transport copters from the Vietnam War, and chemical gases that we gave to both countries. Meanwhile, the Iranian military was in some branches the spitting image of a 3rd world country supplied by Uncle Sam. It is certain that during the 70s, the US heavily supplied Iran, and even later in the Iran-Iraq War, supplied them even further, at least publicly. Oddly enough, it didn't help the Iranians turn the tide as in those final couple years is when the deadlock was broken.
The US didn't like either country. Cheerleading for one against the greater enemy doesn't mean "one is an ally, one is the devil", or else we would have never had any issues with Iraq at all regardless of anything, just like with the Shah who we put back into power and was one of the greatest scourges in Iranian history (and we loved him). Your logic is stiflingly contradictory.
Today, I was watching 9/11: the twin towers and the pentagon on the discovery channel. An hour long program where engineers analyzed why the buildings fell and why there were differences between the buildings. 3 minutes spent on building 7; they said that one column had to have collapsed, which led to a progressive collapse. Then they said that's never happened before... In fact, it's not even possible.
Well, color me fucking sold. Scared of terroism because I fear coincidences and seeing things I've never seen before. 0 black boxes recovered. You mean to tell me there's never been a plane that crashed where they couldn't recover the black box until 9/11, and the tally is 4? Sold again.
I hope we start focusing on ever terrorism events around the world and remembering them. This is just tilting. W/e. Bad guys versus good guys, where the bad guys are labeled terrorist, but since it's a matter of perspective, both sides are ultimately viewed as terrorist. At least we have a war on bad guys, because I really enjoy winnable scenarios that are vaguely realistic.
On September 12 2012 05:57 shell wrote: I'm a european portuguese person, my education is "christian" altho i don't believe in god and hate religion with passion. For me a fundamentalist religious person is someone that doesn't belong in my "society". So all the Jews, Muslims, Christians etc. that hold their religion above a person, civil laws, women and children rights, etc.. are someone that don't belong in a free and open minded society.
Terrorism unfortunately can go both ways, you can have a norwish Breivik that thinks a religion is so bad that he is willing to kill it's own citizens even if they are not from that religion just to prove a point, like you can have the palestianians or Israel's terrorism. The name of god, is just another "good" reason to murder, steal and rape another person/country. That's the world we live in. I was told from an early age, don't do that or you will go to hell.. That's bullshit!!!
Don't do that because you shouldn't be a bad person and you will face your own choinces, like go to jail, that should be the norm! Don't mistreat other kids in school or you will get expelled, don't drink and drive or you might die, don't do drugs they will kill you. We are taught from early age, to fear god instead of being taught responsability for our actions.
Now imagine Pakistan, afganistan or Israel, your parents put you up with so much bullshit from early age and you live in such a bad place(not israel of course). They feed you a religion down the throat, you can't say no, you can't back out. You are fed that crap since young age, all that hate, all that fundamentalism. You have to embrace it because you look out the window and bombs are falling. And they say this is Israel and USA doing. What do you do? You say "no.. they are the good guys! They have Tom Cruise??"
No.. you accept it because those bombs killed your parents!
My point is: War brings hate, racism brings hate.. religion brings hate!
Terrorism is what you get after years and years of opression of the Muslims.. Israel is wrong from the beggining! It can't be helped now, they aren't going away. But they shouldn't continue to opress the muslims, so that in a few generations there can be less hate, less war, less racism.
So yeah "muslim" terrorism was caused by Israel and it's supporters.. the west, that's why we are the targets!
PS: I'm not anti jew or anti Israel, this is the source of the problem like i see it. Take it or live it. I'm just positive if after the end of world war2 someone took some million people and put them on my country, they steal our land, take our homes, put us on the other side of a wall and declare us persona non grata! I would hate them to.
How many Breivik's were there who commited terrorism. How many Mohammed's?
Fact is that even without Israel there would be a global problem with Muslims commiting terrorism.
See Russia, India, Kenya. the Phillipines and Thailand to name a few nations who have plenty of Islamic terrorism.
Is it oppression of muslims which leads to terrorism? If this were the case we would see the same reaction by Christians / Buddists and others who are not treated equally ( like in Egypt, saudi Arabia and other nations who threat their miniority's unfairly) this is however not the case.
islam is fundamentally different, more violent, the texts of Christianity and Judaism are interpreted and the meaning of verses and the stories changed overtime to a more peaceful meaning, Islam however must be taken literal from the book ( and any Imam or scholar will agree)
Weren't the jewish the first ones to start modern terrorism in the middle east? Wasn't the IRA a terrorist organization?
Irrelevant and regaring your IRA comment More civilians were killed by Muslim extremists in two hours on September 11th than in the 36 years of sectarian conflict in Northern Ireland.
1 million by the opinion makers! Does that make a good enought ratio for you? 5000/1.000.000 ??
How much is a jew live in muslim lifes? How much is a normal christian? How much for a american?
This is pointless and stupid.
My point is, 1st - Israel is a source of hate and they don't make it easy for forgiveness since they mistreat muslims, put them outside of the wall, continue do expand they colonys against UN and USA "laws", etc.. 2nd - Religion is a source of hate 3rd - USA and UN only act when there is economic interested
Like I said i'm westerner, I like the USA, I don't support terorrism but the world is fucked up and doesn't seem like it's going to get better. Can I atleast tell the truth, like i see it?
Seriously.
I hate it when people think that decisions are independent of economic interest. Almost everything is about money/power. If, lets use US as an example of world police, the US mission is getting rid of totalitarianism and instead replace it with the all-might superior government democracy then why is North Korea and many unstable countries still existing? We could very easily take them out. This War on Terrorism is a false cloak. Widely understood I thought...
EPT
