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On September 05 2012 06:38 Erik.TheRed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 06:21 Odecey wrote:
I just thought of something: Wouldn't it be a good solution to not introduce the Warhound, but instead give the Tank the extra damage to Mechanical(Possibly as an upgrade to prevent 1/1/1 and the like from becoming even stronger)? It wouldn't change a thing in TvZ, while at the same time giving the tank a use in TvP. With the Battle Hellions to combat Zealots, I think mech would become a strong alternative in PvT. Sounds like a cool idea, But then terran would only get 1.5 new units and casuals would flip out
You can't fix mech in TvP without addressing the immortal.
People spend too much time worrying about units rather than logic that spawned them.
When brood lords become a problem because they are a flying siege unit with a lot of range blizzard introduces the tempest which is another flying siege unit only with even more range. When hellions get nerfed so that they cannot handle chargelots anymore blizzard introduces new kind of hellions that they will need to nerf later. When immortal hardened-shields special ability counters tanks too strongly blizzard introduces new haywire-missile special ability to bypass it.
Worry about the thought-process not it's immediate results.
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On September 05 2012 05:51 Fionn wrote:
I love the warhound.
I hope Blizzard buffs them more and gives them blink.
Or seeker missile.
They remind me of SC:BW
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On September 05 2012 07:08 pmp10 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 06:38 Erik.TheRed wrote:On September 05 2012 06:21 Odecey wrote:
I just thought of something: Wouldn't it be a good solution to not introduce the Warhound, but instead give the Tank the extra damage to Mechanical(Possibly as an upgrade to prevent 1/1/1 and the like from becoming even stronger)? It wouldn't change a thing in TvZ, while at the same time giving the tank a use in TvP. With the Battle Hellions to combat Zealots, I think mech would become a strong alternative in PvT. Sounds like a cool idea, But then terran would only get 1.5 new units and casuals would flip out You can't fix mech in TvP without addressing the immortal. People spend too much time worrying about units rather than logic that spawned them. When brood lords become a problem because they are a flying siege unit with a lot of range blizzard introduces the tempest which is another flying siege unit only with even more range. When hellions get nerfed so that they cannot handle chargelots anymore blizzard introduces new kind of hellions that they will need to nerf later. When immortal hardened-shields special ability counters tanks too strongly blizzard introduces new haywire-missile special ability to bypass it. Worry about the thought-process not it's immediate results.
Still wouldn't be hard. Make it a siege tank upgrade that gets a flat haywire spell component vs mechanical, and that will solve the immortal problem too.
So tank shot would be 35+15+(20 magic vs mech).
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On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~.
Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines?
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On September 05 2012 07:18 Sapphire.lux wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:51 Fionn wrote:
I love the warhound.
I hope Blizzard buffs them more and gives them blink.
Or seeker missile. They remind me of SC:BW
More cool and fun than carriers really.
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Nothing wrong with the intent of the Warhound - big beefy unit that can deal with large numbers of stalkers/colossi etc. Just worried about the Haywire Missile. I think the Warhound as it is will be more than enough to break tank lines directly without necessarily being better at a Marauders job than a Marauder is.
Maybe instead of the Haywire Missile, it could get some kind of defensive ability or something? I mean it's got a fuck off big shield on its right arm. Why not use that? If Mech needs more damage I'd much rather than buff the Siege Tank.
Immortals are easy to deal with anyway with Mech, or at least, they will be. Hellions aren't armoured atm and I don't think they are in HoTS either. Immortals don't get bonus damage against them.
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On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines?
cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race.
marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe.
marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers.
etc etc.
i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove.
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Actually I just realized why haywire doesn't exist on tanks, and why you can't just buff tank vs mechanical.
A huge component of mech's viability in HOTS is going to be the huge 200+ hp on the 2 food warhound.
Boosting tank damage won't compensate for the huge gain in survivability - you are getting MORE THAN TWO times the HP / food.
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On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines?
You can micro a lot against HTs to reduce the effect of storms a lot.
Other than that I'm happy you get my point. These super hardcounters suck a lot. Thats another reason why one should hate colossi :o
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On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove.
You don't understand the point he's trying to make. He's saying that all those units 'ULTRA hard counter' the other ones, but they're fine in the game, so you don't need to deal with the Immortal necessarily to make mech viable.
EDIT: Ok maybe the guy is just crazy.
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On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove.
I don't understand. He was making the point that there is a precedent for units giving extreme counters to each other and listed a few examples. You're resorting to balance whining.
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On September 05 2012 07:30 architecture wrote:
Actually I just realized why haywire doesn't exist on tanks, and why you can't just buff tank vs mechanical.
A huge component of mech's viability in HOTS is going to be the huge 200+ hp on the 2 food warhound.
Boosting tank damage won't compensate for the huge gain in survivability - you are getting MORE THAN TWO times the HP / food.
aoe damage is nerfed compared to BW a lot because units are much much more clumped up.
tanks, storm do much less damage
also colossus compared to reaver etc etc
reaver would destroy 15 marines with 1 shot with the current engine in sc2 it would destroy 4 marines in bw.
also a siege tank does damage to 9 zerglings now while it did greater damage to 3 zerglings in bw.
ofc numbers pulled out of my ass but you get the picture. they are not just random nerfs. 70 damage tanks would be ridiculously retardedly overpowered with the clump mechanics in sc2.
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On September 05 2012 07:35 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove. I don't understand. He was making the point that there is a precedent for units giving extreme counters to each other and listed a few examples. You're resorting to balance whining.
yeah i didn't understand him exactly, i'm really tired of the decade old discussion "yeah x counters my y" "but then your y counters my z" and so on
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On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines?
The difference here is that Colossi have a feasible weakness against bio armies (they're slow, not amazing against Marauders, take a long time to produce, and require a buff/forcefields to be really effective) whereas the Warhound doesn't appear to have any disadvantages whatsoever. There's basically nothing the Protoss can make against it that forces you to do anything other than change the hotkey you're hitting on the Factory. And that sucks. At least in current TvP, it's about managing the Viking and Ghost numbers, vying for position, sniping Obs/Colossi, and so on.
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all this blah blah blah about warhounds must not be coming from real terrans, all terrans really want is a way to kill broodlords without having to micro like a korean gsl champion, this expansion does not seem to solve this.
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On September 05 2012 07:35 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove. You don't understand the point he's trying to make. He's saying that all those units 'ULTRA hard counter' the other ones, but they're fine in the game, so you don't need to deal with the Immortal necessarily to make mech viable. EDIT: Ok maybe the guy is just crazy.
It's indeed the point I wanted to make. There are a ton of ultra hardcounters in the game, and it's fine as it is.
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You guys seem to have figured out the warhound before the game even hit closed beta. That's pretty impressive.
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On September 05 2012 07:40 transcendent one wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:35 Lunareste wrote:On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove. I don't understand. He was making the point that there is a precedent for units giving extreme counters to each other and listed a few examples. You're resorting to balance whining. yeah i didn't understand him exactly, i'm really tired of the decade old discussion "yeah x counters my y" "but then your y counters my z" and so on
Yep, you didn't understood him, protoss players are QQying out loud because the warhound roflstomps stalkers with no/little micro involved, so he wrote a comparison with similar units, like how inmortals are insanely good against mech (high damage per shot and armored). Btw the inmortals still rolfstomp warhounds on mongo-no micro battles, if you were wondering.
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On September 05 2012 07:50 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:35 ZAiNs wrote:On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove. You don't understand the point he's trying to make. He's saying that all those units 'ULTRA hard counter' the other ones, but they're fine in the game, so you don't need to deal with the Immortal necessarily to make mech viable. EDIT: Ok maybe the guy is just crazy. It's indeed the point I wanted to make. There are a ton of ultra hardcounters in the game, and it's fine as it is.
i'm not crazy lol i just didn't put what he said into right context and didn't edit what i wrote cuz i think thats lame
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On September 05 2012 07:52 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2012 07:40 transcendent one wrote:On September 05 2012 07:35 Lunareste wrote:On September 05 2012 07:28 transcendent one wrote:On September 05 2012 07:24 Snowbear wrote:On September 05 2012 05:39 Brahoono wrote:On September 05 2012 05:34 Garmer wrote:On September 05 2012 05:28 Ramiz1989 wrote:On September 05 2012 05:25 archonOOid wrote:On September 05 2012 05:21 Buchan wrote:
So i just set up 8 warhounds vs 14 stalkers and crushes through them with my warhounds. I loved it haha what if you micro your stalkers then? You can't... Stalkers have 2.95 movement speed, Warhounds have 2.81, and have 7 range, Haywire missiles have 9, while Stalkers have 6 range and stat wise are completely inferior to Warhounds, and cost 25/25 less... Warhounds definitely need nerf, and I would support the unit. nerf is not needed, warhound is intended to be so strong vs stalker Yeah thats another thing thats wrong with that unit. It ULTRA hardcounters some units without any micro involved...its not even funny. Upon seeing the reaction here I'm fairly certain though that this unit won't make it in the game ~~. Like immortals ULTRA hardcounter tanks and thors? Or like collossae ULTRA hardcounter marines? Or like HT's ultra hardcounter marines? cmon dont be stupid. that can be said at a lot of units of each race. marines ultra hardcounter anything that is not aoe. marauders ultra hardcounter stalkers. etc etc. i get it that you hate protoss but you need better arguments than that. if protoss didn't have those aoe tools mass marine+medivac would destroy protoss without any micro, with stim+amove. I don't understand. He was making the point that there is a precedent for units giving extreme counters to each other and listed a few examples. You're resorting to balance whining. yeah i didn't understand him exactly, i'm really tired of the decade old discussion "yeah x counters my y" "but then your y counters my z" and so on Yep, you didn't understood him, protoss players are QQying out loud because the warhound roflstomps stalkers with no/little micro involved, so he wrote a comparison with similar units, like how inmortals are insanely good against mech (high damage per shot and armored). Btw the inmortals still rolfstomp warhounds, if you were wondering.
thanks for the verification
anyways immortal sucks ass vs anything else than armored while warhound is ridiculously good vs everything
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EPT
