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[Spoilers] GSL Metropolis Neutral Depot Situation - Page 40

Forum Index > Closed
802 CommentsPost a Reply
Prev 1 38 39 40 41 Next All
AxionSteel
Profile Joined January 2011
United States7754 Posts
July 14 2012 13:00 GMT
#781
On July 14 2012 21:52 iGn1t3 wrote:
so sad for Nestea. Should be a re-match.

lol.......can't believe all these posts are still going on.
Aerisky
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States12129 Posts
July 14 2012 13:13 GMT
#782
Man, thanks for the official statement.

Poor Nestea

Good on IM and Nestea for accepting the loss gracefully. Who knows how it would have gone with the original map and so many possible alternate timelines. Nestea is such a champ in defeat as well >.<
Jim while Johnny had had had had had had had; had had had had the better effect on the teacher.
philth
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada2 Posts
July 14 2012 13:21 GMT
#783
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
July 14 2012 13:42 GMT
#784
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
philth
Profile Joined July 2012
Canada2 Posts
July 14 2012 13:59 GMT
#785
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.


Asserting that there is no solution without trying anything is genius though, I'm sure. Thanks for letting me know I'm kinda silly, I'll try to curb my thinking in the future.
Prepositions are not words to end sentences with
quaffle
Profile Joined December 2010
United States249 Posts
July 14 2012 15:45 GMT
#786
Damn, NesTea. IM-LG and Nestea must have some comfortable conditions to not request a rematch. Im sure many would respect and honor Nestea for requesting one...
Your success is only measured by the strength of your competitors.
paddyz
Profile Joined May 2011
Ireland628 Posts
July 14 2012 16:57 GMT
#787
It was 3-0, doubt if it made any difference at all.
DeCoder
Profile Joined December 2010
Finland236 Posts
July 14 2012 17:06 GMT
#788
Poor sportmanship for Buyn to notice the problem, not telling GomTV about it and proceeding to abuse it in a tournament game. Nestea should not have let it slide.
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
July 14 2012 17:33 GMT
#789
On July 14 2012 22:59 philth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.


Asserting that there is no solution without trying anything is genius though, I'm sure. Thanks for letting me know I'm kinda silly, I'll try to curb my thinking in the future.

Hey i am not the one claiming there is a solution without giving one.
I never said there isn't a solution mind, just that those couple ideas you thrown in got nothing to do with the subject at hand.
Is there a solution? Who knows, that is for the mapmakers/players to figure out.
ohampatu
Profile Joined July 2010
United States1448 Posts
July 14 2012 17:48 GMT
#790
This thread saddens me in so many ways.

1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.

2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.

3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.

4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.

5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.

Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.
I am become death, for I am the destroyer of worlds.....You will be missed KT Violet!!!
canikizu
Profile Joined September 2010
4860 Posts
July 14 2012 18:39 GMT
#791
1. What if the situation went other way? What if Byun watch 10+ recent vods and saw that the map doesn't have the depot, so he made a strat to take advantage of it. But on the game day, GOM suddenly patch the map and put the depot in without telling anyone. I'm asking you, can Byun pause the game and ask for fairness at that time????????

2. What makes you think that Nestea didn't notice the depot missing? Metropolis is the first map of the series, which players have to practice the most. There's a large chance that he notice the depot, but he didn't think of Byun's strat. That's why he didn't pause the game, because maybe he himself thought that no depot is a feature of the map too. Tthis is not the first time it happens, GSL Crossfire and Dual Sight also don't have depots too (you can check vods on youtube, and fyi, CrossFire and Dual Sight were in the map pool last season) So, if Byun execute a strat that Nestea didn't expect and practice for, that counts as cheesy and abusing bugs now? No. Byun outclassed and "out metagamed" Nestea, simple as that. Nestea had a chance to clean up the bunker rush, but he failed, there's nothing else to say.


whatevername
Profile Joined June 2012
471 Posts
July 14 2012 19:46 GMT
#792
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.
mrjpark
Profile Joined March 2011
United States276 Posts
July 14 2012 21:34 GMT
#793
On July 15 2012 04:46 whatevername wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.


Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
whatevername
Profile Joined June 2012
471 Posts
July 14 2012 21:35 GMT
#794
On July 15 2012 06:34 mrjpark wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2012 04:46 whatevername wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.


Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
Oh, so I guess you have literally never beaten a terran on every single ladder map eh?
Peanutbutter717
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States240 Posts
July 14 2012 21:38 GMT
#795
If Byun knew that the depots should have been there, he should have just played in a way that assumed it was there, because it was supposed to be.
Marine -> masters
sibs
Profile Joined July 2012
635 Posts
July 14 2012 21:46 GMT
#796
On July 15 2012 06:35 whatevername wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2012 06:34 mrjpark wrote:
On July 15 2012 04:46 whatevername wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.


Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
Oh, so I guess you have literally never beaten a terran on every single ladder map eh?

Hmm its a free win if Terran gets the 2 bunkers blocking the ramp.

Usually its stopped by a patrolling drone, again if you think theres a depot there you wont bother patrolling.
whatevername
Profile Joined June 2012
471 Posts
July 14 2012 22:08 GMT
#797
On July 15 2012 06:46 sibs wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 15 2012 06:35 whatevername wrote:
On July 15 2012 06:34 mrjpark wrote:
On July 15 2012 04:46 whatevername wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:42 Assirra wrote:
On July 14 2012 22:21 philth wrote:
I've always felt the neutral supply depot is a half measure anyway, and rather clumsy to look at. A map should be able to be problem free inherently, without having to slap a gimmick on it. Maybe ramp sizes, number of ramps, distances from ramps to minerals, or some other mechanism, needs to be revisited.

I don't have the answer myself, as I'm neither a map maker, nor a top level player. Yet I'm convinced the answer is out there somewhere.

Neither of those things has anything to do with the problem of the double bunker rush.
Don't see why it is gimmicky tbh. its just part of the map to prevent nonsense like we also had destructible rocks from bases removed.
Also, claiming there is a solution when you don't know it is kinda silly.
Destructable rocks isnt a strategy, it is literally unacceptable that a map precludes a particular action because its perceived as imbalanced. It needs to be balanced away through patching, through the meta game, or simple map size/geography. Double bunker isnt even imbalanced, its easy as fuck to stop, its just a hold over mentality from the cheesefest of 2010.


Uh. It's actually just a free win. I guess it's not a balance problem since the Zerg player may as well have just not joined the game.
Oh, so I guess you have literally never beaten a terran on every single ladder map eh?

Hmm its a free win if Terran gets the 2 bunkers blocking the ramp.

Usually its stopped by a patrolling drone, again if you think theres a depot there you wont bother patrolling.
It's a free win if he gets both bunkers up and you have no drones on the other side, which you will if you scouted a proxy 11-11 the only reasonably early bunker rush that will hurt you-- something nestea did scout, by the way.
Fragile51
Profile Joined October 2011
Netherlands15767 Posts
July 14 2012 22:21 GMT
#798
On July 15 2012 06:38 Peanutbutter717 wrote:
If Byun knew that the depots should have been there, he should have just played in a way that assumed it was there, because it was supposed to be.


Spoken like someone who doesn't play this game for his living.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
July 14 2012 22:31 GMT
#799
On July 15 2012 02:48 ohampatu wrote:
This thread saddens me in so many ways.

1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.

2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.

3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.

4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.

5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.

Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.

vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
July 14 2012 22:36 GMT
#800
On July 15 2012 02:48 ohampatu wrote:
This thread saddens me in so many ways.

1. The mods are not doing their jobs, they are allowing people to say 'please die' and other harsh things about Byun, and only giving a warning for it. To put this in light, last time i replied to Incontrol and said some derogatory terms, I was insta banned (we'll ignore incontrol cussing/flaming/etc, cause you dont ban pros, i get it). Can the people trashing Byun be treated like this? I bet you'd insta ban if instead of 'Byun' getting made fun of, it was 'TLO' or 'NoNy'. Your letting people post the chat from his CoCa games, letting people call him a matchfixer. I blame this complete thread on TL and its MOD's.

2. There is no rule that states a depot has to be on a map. There is only the rule that GSL maps have to be used. I dont understand how people keep stating he broke a rule. He did no such thing.

3. Byun didn't do anything sneakily. He watched 10 vods (or more) of the map, saw that it never had a depot at all this season, and created a strat for it. Lets go ahead and call every player that has played on this map this season that hasn't mentioned the depots a 'horrible person, unprofessional, should quit gaming, no honor, etc'.

4. Nestea is the only person to blame at this point in time. He had the ability to pause. He had the ability to question the admins. He had the ability to beat the strat after scouting it. The only people who dropped the ball were GOM and Nestea. GOM put out an annoucement, Nestea didn't want to regame. Issues are now resolved. Drop the fucking subject already.

5. The depot is not a 'balance' object. The maps are balanced without depots. The depots are strictly there for viwership. At this point in time the best discussion would be if the depots are even needed anymore. Which they aren't. Maps have increased in size, zerg has gotten better early game. Ladder diamond players can prevent this strat, why are we making it ez on the pros that they dont have to do something a simple diamond player is expected to do every ladder game in PvZ.

Most importantly. You people trashing Byun make me sick. He is a top 3 terran potentially, and your all trashing him, calling him a matchfixer, bringing up old information, trying to make him look like the bad guy. He is the only guy who out of the 3 who did his job 100 percent. Out of Byun, Nestea, and GOM....Byun acted 100 percent as he should have, whilst Nestea and GOM both dropped the ball when it was in their courts.



Stop blaming Nestea, he took it like a man and only asked GOM to fix the problem for future matches. He is the one who acted 100 percent like he should have. What Byun did was definitely legal but probably not the Best in terms of sportsmanship. If you have problem with Nestea fans who are putting down Byun, that is fine. But Nestea didn't make a big deal out of it. So not sure why the blame is on him.
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