On May 05 2012 18:07 DN.rSquar3d wrote: (Note: I originally wanted to make this a separate topic, due to its length, but my account is still fresh so I can't.)
This is my first post here over at Team Liquid; in fact, this is the main reasons I made my account. I've been an avid reader of not just Team Liquid, but practically any gaming-related content, even Forbes and The Economist articles on gaming. And yet, in the five years that I have been following professional gaming, and even just gaming in general, I have never ever seen anything as scary as what's happening now.
We all have the right to express our own opinions, albeit there are limits, succinctly summarized by the phrase "One's rights ends when another's rights begins." In the exercise of our rights we must not trample over the rights of others. We have every right to be offended by Orb's and Destiny's usage of racial slurs; we have every right to say these opinions and feelings of offense in public; however, that does not give us any right to ruin careers on the basis that, in our point of view, what he said was "unethical."
The truth of the matter is, throughout all existing sports, throughout all existing forms of entertainment, throughout all of everything, there will always be individuals that use what we call "bad words." Note that I use quotation marks; that's because our definition of bad may not be someone else's definition of bad, the very same way that someone may not have the same religious beliefs or interpretations as I do.
Destiny, Orb, Naniwa and IdrA are just tiny drops in a vast community. There are plenty of others in the community that speak in much "wilder" ways than these individuals do; I haven't heard anyone forming a lynch mob to have Blizzard ban these individuals. Why the double standard?
Before this community burns itself to the ground by conducting witch hunts and executing individuals who have contributed more to it than those that are hunting them, I want to remind you guys of a few historical examples of why, even when someone is acting really, really bad, it absolutely does not hinder the "mainstreamness" of that sport:
• John McEnroe. Legendary tennis player. He swears at the umpire, his opponent, and even the audience. A few choice quotes: "You can't be serious!" "You are the pits of the world! Vultures! Trash!" • Floyd Mayweather, Jr. Undefeated boxer, former pound-for-pound best fighter in the world. Known for trashing ethnic groups (including Filipinos like me). A few choice quotes: "When I kick that motherfucking midget's (referring to Pacquiao), I'm gonna get him to make me some sushi rolls and some rice." • Michael Llodra. French tennis player. Fined US$2,500 for calling a Chinese female fan of his opponent a "fucking Chinese." • Luis Suarez. Liverpool soccer player. Suspended for eight matches and fined $62,000 for making racist comments against a player from Manchester United.
All these four individuals belong to sports that are, arguably, much bigger/mainstream (at least in viewership) than e-sports. Did any of these individuals kill their sport by uttering racial slurs? NO. Did those sports communities (which, I would argue, are much more mature than us) send e-mails or letters to sponsors telling them to kick the player, to ban, or that they won't support the player/team/sponsor anymore? Hell NO.
What they did was, in a manner as civilized and mature as possible, Tweeted, posted Facebook statuses about it, etc.; in the case of McEnroe, when the internet was still in its infancy (not many people used it back then), people read about it in the newspapers, saw it on television, and talked/discussed it with each other. But they did not, at any point in time, try to strip McEnroe of his career. Even Mayweather, who I will say I hate (along with a couple million boxing fans/Pacquiao fans), I never thought of sending his sponsors or him or the promoters to reject him. That's not how it works in truly professionalized sports.
The way it works, is through appropriate sanctions, and not community action that scares away sponsors. The truth is, it's much more scarier to a sponsor to receive e-mails and letters about fans no longer supporting their brand, their team or their player, than it is motivating for them to receive e-mails and letters about fans happy and supporting their brand, their team or their player. Some call this "witch hunt" or "lynching" as the "necessary growing pains" towards the end-goal of making e-sports truly professional and mainstream.
But are they really towards that goal, or against it?
Again, it is scary on the part of the sponsors when they receive such letters and e-mails (listen to State of the Game Episode 65 where the cast succinctly discuss the orb issue). If sponsors are scared, do any of you guys seriously think that they will be motivated to continue supporting e-sports? Do you think potential sponsors will be attracted by a community that wields digital pitch forks and conducts digital lynching? No, they won't be attracted.
What will attract them is a community that listens, understands, and does not have any delusions that they are morally ascendant and feel like they have the power to judge any individual. That much is certain.
What the best way the community can do, to at least lessen BM, is to push for an organization like International Tennis Federation (ITF), International Federation of Association Football (FIFA), etc., or even similar to the Korean KeSPA, that handles such issues. Take it out of the hands of the mob (that's the community at large) and put it in the hands of a well-structured organization run by professionals.
We are at a crossroads where the community has to choose between two things: do we act like a lynching mob, not governed by any rules of conduct, logical deliberation, and simply acting on whims; a path that will surely lead us to lynching more professionals (think Naniwa and IdrA), and risk that the e-sports scene will be devoid of personalities, variety and even talent? Or do we push for the formation of a regulating body that handles these matters the way professional, mainstream sports do: by fining, sanctioning and booting players not on a whim, but with deliberation.
We are seemingly currently ruled by an angry mob, a kangaroo court, or witch hunters; do we stick with them, or do we reject them and seek to establish a real court, with a judge and jury, all professionals, and all doing their job with deliberation and determined logic?
In a nutshell:
• We do not want to scare away sponsors; lynch mobs/witch hunts, unfortunately, are a way of scaring them. • We do not want to be devoid of personalities. Sports isn't just about skill, or talent; it's also about seeing personalities (be they good or bad). We can react to these personalities, but we do not want a bland scene that does not grow. • We do not want to scare away potential professional gamers, and we do not want to promote a "plastic" society, where people are forced to act differently from who they truly are. We want as many pros as possible, and we want them to be honest about who they are.
I am not insulting anyone with this post. I understand both parties; many of us are running scared because of the potential implications of the witch hunts the community has engaged in recently. On the other hand. I also understand the indignation and desire of those involved in these witch hunts to reduce BM (especially racial slurs), but there is both a proper way and an improper way of handling such issues.
And remember what Morgan Freeman once said: "The only way to get rid of racism is to stop talking about it." The more we talk about racism, the more we keep it alive (regardless of intent).
People should really read this post and think again.
On May 05 2012 23:17 Swift118 wrote: Im not sure who is more sad; Destiny or all the neckbeards hating on him.
I can answer that for you- it's side who is trying to control other people's actions.
You still seem to be twisting this around. Destiny can do whatever the fuck he wants, he just has to deal with the consequences that come with it. He's in this situation because of his own behavior.
I'm sorry, but no. You are the one who isn't seeing this clearly. Just because Destiny physically has the ability to do what he wants, that doesn't mean that his opponents aren't trying to control his actions. And the "consequences that come with it" have dramatically changed because these people, acting as morality police, have decided to create more serious consequences for him.
This is a very extreme example, but suppose you lived in North Korea and got thrown in prison for not showing enough sadness at Kim Jong Il's funeral. Could I say "hey, you can do whatever you want, but now you're just dealing with the consequences of your actions"?
The point is that if the consequences are more extreme than what is appropriate for the situation, it's not a good thing.
There is nothing wrong with people letting Razer know that they don't like Destiny.
Yes. There. Is. YES THERE IS. I can't say this enough times!
If you don't like Destiny's stream, don't watch it. Don't support him. You can even stop watching competition that he is entered in.
But if something doesn't please you... just avoid it! You don't need to try to have it changed, or have it punished because you don't like it! If other people are entertained by it, let them enjoy it and you can go off and enjoy something else.
But the TL community wasn't mature enough to do that. Instead, the attitude of "fuck that guy, I don't like him, I want him to conform to my demands or else I'm going to do whatever I can to harm him" was used. That attitude is not fucking OK. There is something wrong with doing that.
And on a secondary level, it's bad for the growth of E-sports. Do you know what happens if this kind of action becomes more common? If Razer is being threatened with boycotts and PR nightmares on a frequent basis, they will simply stop sponsoring gaming teams, because it will stop being worth it.
Mass-complaining to a sponsor and threatening boycotts or public accusations of "this company doesn't care if people are racist!" is an action that should only be used as a last resort. Instead, this time it was one of the first ideas that people came up with, and the unthinking mob just followed along with it.
If people tried to make Thorzain use inappropriate language and slurs by complaining to Razer that mouz.Thorzain is too vanilla, it would accomplish fuck all in terms of actually hurting Mouz and just make Razer think the community is retarded.
Sure, some people who are squeaky clean would be immune to it. Many others, included well-liked players like Huk, have had their moments of inappropriate language, using "faggot" or "nigga" or whatever else. Get a big enough crowd and a handful of ugly screenshots and half the players out there could potentially get dropped from their teams.
Well, I think the situation of an angry mob of complainers demanding that people be fired is a pretty fucked up situation, and if it happens on a regular basis it will literally destroy E-sports.
This only worked because it was in line with Razer's views, I doubt they'd want themselves associated with racial slurs in any manner. It's that simple.
It worked because they can't afford to risk the PR problems of being seen as a company that doesn't punish those views. Quantic and Razer didn't give a shit about it previously. It worked because the angry mob forced them into a situation of having to choose to fire Destiny or risk a PR nightmare.
I stand by my statement that it is fucked up when things like people's employment status is determined via angry mob.
Your North Korean example is too extreme to even respond to. When the only argument you can broach is from oppressive governments threatening their citizens, there really isn't much to say. But here, let me use the opposite extreme to show you why this doesn't work. My boss tells me I need to stop calling all the women in the office, "sweet cheeks", "sugar baby" and "honey tits" but I don't want to. He fires me. What an asshole for trying to "force me" to do something right? If not, then there's clearly a line at which point "forcing" someone to do something or imposing consequences is acceptable. So using extreme examples to make it seem like it isn't is absolutely idiotic.
If I don't like Destiny's stream, I won't watch it. But I happen to kind of like Razer products, I also like a number of the teams they support, but there are honestly a lot of gaming peripherals that are comparable and if one of the small factors holding me back from purchasing a Razer product is this guy whose team they support who spews racial slurs, I'm sure they'd want to know. Particularly if dropping that guy would be a lot less of a loss to them than losing even a handful of sales.
I'm fine with people contacting sponsors as long as they go through the process of Player -> Team -> Sponsor and make sure to send a positive email once any of those parties actually take action. You don't actually have to be squeaky clean to get caught in these situations, you just have to meet some very basic standards which is why you don't see mass drops all over the place for small issues.
Yeah, mass emails full of threats and complaints will hurt the scene, no argument there. But telling a sponsor about the actions of one of the many players they finance and following up with gratitude when action is taken is not an issue.
Finally, why do you think it would be a PR nightmare? Maybe because the actions are largely indefensible? Going back to the Thorzain example(substitute just about anyone who hasn't been extremely offensive). There would be no PR issue.
On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote: I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks.
Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community.
Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it.
And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it.
It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft?
Yeah it's causing rifts. Perhaps people are overreacting. But if the majority of people getting put out by this debate are people defending the use of racist terms as insults (which I think is the case), then I won't shed a tear if they end up leaving the community.
Outsiders? They will see a community trying to stamp out immature offensive behaviour. I think that that is a positive aspect that will appeal to outsiders.
I think the majority on the defensive here are more against the scale of the reaction because they don't find the issue a big deal, not in favor of racist terms. That's a pretty big difference. Don't simply write off people as 'oh, they like racist terms', because that's an easy way to dismiss reasonable objections. Unless people actually say that. Personally, I'd rather solidify the existing community than grab new people. If you lose your dedicated fanbase in favor of completely new people, that is not necessarily good. This event isn't going to do that, but it's not helpful.
I can only speak for myself here, but I'm disgusted with the modern SC2 community. Why would I want to support it with this kind of screeching, self-righteous behavior in the name of TEH ESPORTS that flares up? I'd rather have a vulgar stream that I don't have to actually watch than an insufferable everyone-else that would discourage me participating at all.
Well I disagree that the majority are against the scale.
But let's say you're right. What should Destiny's punishment be (if anything)? I mean, all in all, he's been de-featured from TL, and he's parted ways with Quantic (which according to Destiny doesn't hurt him that much anyway). I believe these are reasonable reactions by private companies towards a person being rather offensive.
When I say majority, I'm referring to majority of those who are also against what happened, not majority of the whole group ('majority on the defensive', as I put it). I don't think many people are supporting racist language so much as they don't think it's a big deal in the context of a ladder game. I hope that's the case, anyway.
What should it be? Well, I'm not really in a place to say that, so I can't give you a great answer. It should be something internal between Destiny and Quantic, if anything. My first thought would be 'as long as it's on his stream and not in tournament play, I don't care, people can choose not to support the stream (defeature, not watch)', but that doesn't work - he's still interacting with other players if he's typing it out to them, and you can't just decide to not play him. Like I said, not going to be able to give anything conclusive.
'Just a ladder game' is a bit of a cop-out I think. Just like people use the same 'It's just the internet' excuse. If it was a one-off, then I could see it. However Destiny has a repetitive history of this behaviour. Pretty soon it becomes apparent that this is an individual that you have a problem with, not an isolated incident.
I don't agree with making it a large public issue and bringing the sponsor into it, however. If the person involved messaged Quantic and told them 'hey, this isn't good, talk to him about it', and then Destiny still decided to cut ties due to the issue, I'd be happier with it.
Isn't that basically what happened though? From the OP:
I've talked to Mark a lot over the past couple days, and we've come to the decision that it'd be best for both of our relationships for me to step aside from Quantic. I really appreciate the help/support from Quantic, and everyone on it, and everything they've done for me up to this point, but I feel like I've become more of a liability than an asset to them. I'm not about to release some hollow/empty apologies that mean nothing, and I can't even guarantee that I won't let any "bigot/racist/hateful/nazi/apocalyptic" speech cross my stream again.
Haven't read through the whole tread but what did blizzard do about this? I'm certain blatant racism is against the TOS. Did they ban Destinys account? Did owned3d shut him down? If not this is certainly a huge disgrace, racism like this is the worst thing in the world and need to be punished harshly
On May 04 2012 22:44 Psychobabas wrote: Can someone help me please...
I was playing ladder and somebody called me a "fucking white-trash redneck cracker". I am greatly offended by this racist hate-crime. What are the major sites I can search so I can get his contact details and try to ruin his life? I want to do this for the community.
My little butt is so hurt by this. (No pun intended).
Was he a large community figure who represents a team of professional gamers who salaries depend on continued support from sponsors?
No not really. It was a random ladder game. But I still want to try and sue him or something. I want to help to clean the ladder from this filth. I want to stand up to these bullies. For the community.
Fag.. hope i get permbanned, this community has turned into trash and i don't even want to be able to be a part of it anymore
On May 05 2012 18:07 DN.rSquar3d wrote: (Note: I originally wanted to make this a separate topic, due to its length, but my account is still fresh so I can't.)
This is my first post here over at Team Liquid; in fact, this is the main reasons I made my account. I've been an avid reader of not just Team Liquid, but practically any gaming-related content, even Forbes and The Economist articles on gaming. And yet, in the five years that I have been following professional gaming, and even just gaming in general, I have never ever seen anything as scary as what's happening now.
We all have the right to express our own opinions, albeit there are limits, succinctly summarized by the phrase "One's rights ends when another's rights begins." In the exercise of our rights we must not trample over the rights of others. We have every right to be offended by Orb's and Destiny's usage of racial slurs; we have every right to say these opinions and feelings of offense in public; however, that does not give us any right to ruin careers on the basis that, in our point of view, what he said was "unethical."
The truth of the matter is, throughout all existing sports, throughout all existing forms of entertainment, throughout all of everything, there will always be individuals that use what we call "bad words." Note that I use quotation marks; that's because our definition of bad may not be someone else's definition of bad, the very same way that someone may not have the same religious beliefs or interpretations as I do.
Destiny, Orb, Naniwa and IdrA are just tiny drops in a vast community. There are plenty of others in the community that speak in much "wilder" ways than these individuals do; I haven't heard anyone forming a lynch mob to have Blizzard ban these individuals. Why the double standard?
Before this community burns itself to the ground by conducting witch hunts and executing individuals who have contributed more to it than those that are hunting them, I want to remind you guys of a few historical examples of why, even when someone is acting really, really bad, it absolutely does not hinder the "mainstreamness" of that sport:
• John McEnroe. Legendary tennis player. He swears at the umpire, his opponent, and even the audience. A few choice quotes: "You can't be serious!" "You are the pits of the world! Vultures! Trash!" • Floyd Mayweather, Jr. Undefeated boxer, former pound-for-pound best fighter in the world. Known for trashing ethnic groups (including Filipinos like me). A few choice quotes: "When I kick that motherfucking midget's (referring to Pacquiao), I'm gonna get him to make me some sushi rolls and some rice." • Michael Llodra. French tennis player. Fined US$2,500 for calling a Chinese female fan of his opponent a "fucking Chinese." • Luis Suarez. Liverpool soccer player. Suspended for eight matches and fined $62,000 for making racist comments against a player from Manchester United.
All these four individuals belong to sports that are, arguably, much bigger/mainstream (at least in viewership) than e-sports. Did any of these individuals kill their sport by uttering racial slurs? NO. Did those sports communities (which, I would argue, are much more mature than us) send e-mails or letters to sponsors telling them to kick the player, to ban, or that they won't support the player/team/sponsor anymore? Hell NO.
What they did was, in a manner as civilized and mature as possible, Tweeted, posted Facebook statuses about it, etc.; in the case of McEnroe, when the internet was still in its infancy (not many people used it back then), people read about it in the newspapers, saw it on television, and talked/discussed it with each other. But they did not, at any point in time, try to strip McEnroe of his career. Even Mayweather, who I will say I hate (along with a couple million boxing fans/Pacquiao fans), I never thought of sending his sponsors or him or the promoters to reject him. That's not how it works in truly professionalized sports.
The way it works, is through appropriate sanctions, and not community action that scares away sponsors. The truth is, it's much more scarier to a sponsor to receive e-mails and letters about fans no longer supporting their brand, their team or their player, than it is motivating for them to receive e-mails and letters about fans happy and supporting their brand, their team or their player. Some call this "witch hunt" or "lynching" as the "necessary growing pains" towards the end-goal of making e-sports truly professional and mainstream.
But are they really towards that goal, or against it?
Again, it is scary on the part of the sponsors when they receive such letters and e-mails (listen to State of the Game Episode 65 where the cast succinctly discuss the orb issue). If sponsors are scared, do any of you guys seriously think that they will be motivated to continue supporting e-sports? Do you think potential sponsors will be attracted by a community that wields digital pitch forks and conducts digital lynching? No, they won't be attracted.
What will attract them is a community that listens, understands, and does not have any delusions that they are morally ascendant and feel like they have the power to judge any individual. That much is certain.
What the best way the community can do, to at least lessen BM, is to push for an organization like International Tennis Federation (ITF), International Federation of Association Football (FIFA), etc., or even similar to the Korean KeSPA, that handles such issues. Take it out of the hands of the mob (that's the community at large) and put it in the hands of a well-structured organization run by professionals.
We are at a crossroads where the community has to choose between two things: do we act like a lynching mob, not governed by any rules of conduct, logical deliberation, and simply acting on whims; a path that will surely lead us to lynching more professionals (think Naniwa and IdrA), and risk that the e-sports scene will be devoid of personalities, variety and even talent? Or do we push for the formation of a regulating body that handles these matters the way professional, mainstream sports do: by fining, sanctioning and booting players not on a whim, but with deliberation.
We are seemingly currently ruled by an angry mob, a kangaroo court, or witch hunters; do we stick with them, or do we reject them and seek to establish a real court, with a judge and jury, all professionals, and all doing their job with deliberation and determined logic?
In a nutshell:
• We do not want to scare away sponsors; lynch mobs/witch hunts, unfortunately, are a way of scaring them. • We do not want to be devoid of personalities. Sports isn't just about skill, or talent; it's also about seeing personalities (be they good or bad). We can react to these personalities, but we do not want a bland scene that does not grow. • We do not want to scare away potential professional gamers, and we do not want to promote a "plastic" society, where people are forced to act differently from who they truly are. We want as many pros as possible, and we want them to be honest about who they are.
I am not insulting anyone with this post. I understand both parties; many of us are running scared because of the potential implications of the witch hunts the community has engaged in recently. On the other hand. I also understand the indignation and desire of those involved in these witch hunts to reduce BM (especially racial slurs), but there is both a proper way and an improper way of handling such issues.
And remember what Morgan Freeman once said: "The only way to get rid of racism is to stop talking about it." The more we talk about racism, the more we keep it alive (regardless of intent).
People should really read this post and think again.
This really should have it's own topic! The consequences of your actions are much more far reaching than you realize. If you want to tell/show people they have consequences for using words that are offensive by threatening sponsors about boycotting, then you should realize their are also consequences for yours. When we no longer have a growing community, and start having an SCII great depression then I hope you realize that you had a hand in it. Im just saying.
On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote: I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks.
Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community.
Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it.
And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it.
It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft?
Yeah it's causing rifts. Perhaps people are overreacting. But if the majority of people getting put out by this debate are people defending the use of racist terms as insults (which I think is the case), then I won't shed a tear if they end up leaving the community.
Outsiders? They will see a community trying to stamp out immature offensive behaviour. I think that that is a positive aspect that will appeal to outsiders.
I think the majority on the defensive here are more against the scale of the reaction because they don't find the issue a big deal, not in favor of racist terms. That's a pretty big difference. Don't simply write off people as 'oh, they like racist terms', because that's an easy way to dismiss reasonable objections. Unless people actually say that. Personally, I'd rather solidify the existing community than grab new people. If you lose your dedicated fanbase in favor of completely new people, that is not necessarily good. This event isn't going to do that, but it's not helpful.
I can only speak for myself here, but I'm disgusted with the modern SC2 community. Why would I want to support it with this kind of screeching, self-righteous behavior in the name of TEH ESPORTS that flares up? I'd rather have a vulgar stream that I don't have to actually watch than an insufferable everyone-else that would discourage me participating at all.
Well I disagree that the majority are against the scale.
But let's say you're right. What should Destiny's punishment be (if anything)? I mean, all in all, he's been de-featured from TL, and he's parted ways with Quantic (which according to Destiny doesn't hurt him that much anyway). I believe these are reasonable reactions by private companies towards a person being rather offensive.
When I say majority, I'm referring to majority of those who are also against what happened, not majority of the whole group ('majority on the defensive', as I put it). I don't think many people are supporting racist language so much as they don't think it's a big deal in the context of a ladder game. I hope that's the case, anyway.
What should it be? Well, I'm not really in a place to say that, so I can't give you a great answer. It should be something internal between Destiny and Quantic, if anything. My first thought would be 'as long as it's on his stream and not in tournament play, I don't care, people can choose not to support the stream (defeature, not watch)', but that doesn't work - he's still interacting with other players if he's typing it out to them, and you can't just decide to not play him. Like I said, not going to be able to give anything conclusive.
'Just a ladder game' is a bit of a cop-out I think. Just like people use the same 'It's just the internet' excuse. If it was a one-off, then I could see it. However Destiny has a repetitive history of this behaviour. Pretty soon it becomes apparent that this is an individual that you have a problem with, not an isolated incident.
I don't agree with making it a large public issue and bringing the sponsor into it, however. If the person involved messaged Quantic and told them 'hey, this isn't good, talk to him about it', and then Destiny still decided to cut ties due to the issue, I'd be happier with it.
Isn't that basically what happened though? From the OP:
I've talked to Mark a lot over the past couple days, and we've come to the decision that it'd be best for both of our relationships for me to step aside from Quantic. I really appreciate the help/support from Quantic, and everyone on it, and everything they've done for me up to this point, but I feel like I've become more of a liability than an asset to them. I'm not about to release some hollow/empty apologies that mean nothing, and I can't even guarantee that I won't let any "bigot/racist/hateful/nazi/apocalyptic" speech cross my stream again.
He felt that he had become more of a liability. So clearly a lynchmob had gathered around probably both razer and quantic to have his head, and the repeated harassment was beginning to tear at their relationship with Destiny. This is like anon all over again, and it all started with Orb. Now there's probably a minor community that thinks of themselves as moral crusaders that watch for these bad words and spam sponsors about it just so they can feel important.
On May 05 2012 23:17 Swift118 wrote: Im not sure who is more sad; Destiny or all the neckbeards hating on him.
I can answer that for you- it's side who is trying to control other people's actions.
You still seem to be twisting this around. Destiny can do whatever the fuck he wants, he just has to deal with the consequences that come with it. He's in this situation because of his own behavior.
I'm sorry, but no. You are the one who isn't seeing this clearly. Just because Destiny physically has the ability to do what he wants, that doesn't mean that his opponents aren't trying to control his actions. And the "consequences that come with it" have dramatically changed because these people, acting as morality police, have decided to create more serious consequences for him.
This is a very extreme example, but suppose you lived in North Korea and got thrown in prison for not showing enough sadness at Kim Jong Il's funeral. Could I say "hey, you can do whatever you want, but now you're just dealing with the consequences of your actions"?
The point is that if the consequences are more extreme than what is appropriate for the situation, it's not a good thing.
There is nothing wrong with people letting Razer know that they don't like Destiny.
Yes. There. Is. YES THERE IS. I can't say this enough times!
If you don't like Destiny's stream, don't watch it. Don't support him. You can even stop watching competition that he is entered in.
But if something doesn't please you... just avoid it! You don't need to try to have it changed, or have it punished because you don't like it! If other people are entertained by it, let them enjoy it and you can go off and enjoy something else.
But the TL community wasn't mature enough to do that. Instead, the attitude of "fuck that guy, I don't like him, I want him to conform to my demands or else I'm going to do whatever I can to harm him" was used. That attitude is not fucking OK. There is something wrong with doing that.
And on a secondary level, it's bad for the growth of E-sports. Do you know what happens if this kind of action becomes more common? If Razer is being threatened with boycotts and PR nightmares on a frequent basis, they will simply stop sponsoring gaming teams, because it will stop being worth it.
Mass-complaining to a sponsor and threatening boycotts or public accusations of "this company doesn't care if people are racist!" is an action that should only be used as a last resort. Instead, this time it was one of the first ideas that people came up with, and the unthinking mob just followed along with it.
If people tried to make Thorzain use inappropriate language and slurs by complaining to Razer that mouz.Thorzain is too vanilla, it would accomplish fuck all in terms of actually hurting Mouz and just make Razer think the community is retarded.
Sure, some people who are squeaky clean would be immune to it. Many others, included well-liked players like Huk, have had their moments of inappropriate language, using "faggot" or "nigga" or whatever else. Get a big enough crowd and a handful of ugly screenshots and half the players out there could potentially get dropped from their teams.
Well, I think the situation of an angry mob of complainers demanding that people be fired is a pretty fucked up situation, and if it happens on a regular basis it will literally destroy E-sports.
This only worked because it was in line with Razer's views, I doubt they'd want themselves associated with racial slurs in any manner. It's that simple.
It worked because they can't afford to risk the PR problems of being seen as a company that doesn't punish those views. Quantic and Razer didn't give a shit about it previously. It worked because the angry mob forced them into a situation of having to choose to fire Destiny or risk a PR nightmare.
I stand by my statement that it is fucked up when things like people's employment status is determined via angry mob.
Your North Korean example is too extreme to even respond to. When the only argument you can broach is from oppressive governments threatening their citizens, there really isn't much to say.
It's an analogy. If you understand what they are, then Google it and learn about it. The point I was making is "if something is wrong on a large scale, then it is also wrong on a smaller scale".
You seem to be under the impression that I was saying that censoring Destiny is literally as bad as North Korea jailing people who don't worship the Dear Leader. That is not the case.
But here, let me use the opposite extreme to show you why this doesn't work. My boss tells me I need to stop calling all the women in the office, "sweet cheeks", "sugar baby" and "honey tits" but I don't want to. He fires me. What an asshole for trying to "force me" to do something right?
That is not the same situation at all.
A more comparable situation would be if you were at a bar and started calling women those things. Then the women decided that you need to be punished for your inappropriate behavior, so they went to your boss and demanded that you be fired from your job, or else they'll hold a public protest outside of your workplace.
If not, then there's clearly a line at which point "forcing" someone to do something or imposing consequences is acceptable.
I absolutely agree with this. But I cannot see how the situation of "a person is trying to put on an entertaining show for his audience, and part of it is that he's speaking his mind and being completely uncensored in front of an audience who can choose to watch or not watch it" is something that calls for this kind of response.
On May 05 2012 23:17 Swift118 wrote: Im not sure who is more sad; Destiny or all the neckbeards hating on him.
I can answer that for you- it's side who is trying to control other people's actions.
You still seem to be twisting this around. Destiny can do whatever the fuck he wants, he just has to deal with the consequences that come with it. He's in this situation because of his own behavior.
I'm sorry, but no. You are the one who isn't seeing this clearly. Just because Destiny physically has the ability to do what he wants, that doesn't mean that his opponents aren't trying to control his actions. And the "consequences that come with it" have dramatically changed because these people, acting as morality police, have decided to create more serious consequences for him.
This is a very extreme example, but suppose you lived in North Korea and got thrown in prison for not showing enough sadness at Kim Jong Il's funeral. Could I say "hey, you can do whatever you want, but now you're just dealing with the consequences of your actions"?
The point is that if the consequences are more extreme than what is appropriate for the situation, it's not a good thing.
There is nothing wrong with people letting Razer know that they don't like Destiny.
Yes. There. Is. YES THERE IS. I can't say this enough times!
If you don't like Destiny's stream, don't watch it. Don't support him. You can even stop watching competition that he is entered in.
But if something doesn't please you... just avoid it! You don't need to try to have it changed, or have it punished because you don't like it! If other people are entertained by it, let them enjoy it and you can go off and enjoy something else.
But the TL community wasn't mature enough to do that. Instead, the attitude of "fuck that guy, I don't like him, I want him to conform to my demands or else I'm going to do whatever I can to harm him" was used. That attitude is not fucking OK. There is something wrong with doing that.
And on a secondary level, it's bad for the growth of E-sports. Do you know what happens if this kind of action becomes more common? If Razer is being threatened with boycotts and PR nightmares on a frequent basis, they will simply stop sponsoring gaming teams, because it will stop being worth it.
Mass-complaining to a sponsor and threatening boycotts or public accusations of "this company doesn't care if people are racist!" is an action that should only be used as a last resort. Instead, this time it was one of the first ideas that people came up with, and the unthinking mob just followed along with it.
If people tried to make Thorzain use inappropriate language and slurs by complaining to Razer that mouz.Thorzain is too vanilla, it would accomplish fuck all in terms of actually hurting Mouz and just make Razer think the community is retarded.
Sure, some people who are squeaky clean would be immune to it. Many others, included well-liked players like Huk, have had their moments of inappropriate language, using "faggot" or "nigga" or whatever else. Get a big enough crowd and a handful of ugly screenshots and half the players out there could potentially get dropped from their teams.
Well, I think the situation of an angry mob of complainers demanding that people be fired is a pretty fucked up situation, and if it happens on a regular basis it will literally destroy E-sports.
This only worked because it was in line with Razer's views, I doubt they'd want themselves associated with racial slurs in any manner. It's that simple.
It worked because they can't afford to risk the PR problems of being seen as a company that doesn't punish those views. Quantic and Razer didn't give a shit about it previously. It worked because the angry mob forced them into a situation of having to choose to fire Destiny or risk a PR nightmare.
I stand by my statement that it is fucked up when things like people's employment status is determined via angry mob.
Your North Korean example is too extreme to even respond to. When the only argument you can broach is from oppressive governments threatening their citizens, there really isn't much to say.
It's an analogy. If you understand what they are, then Google it and learn about it. The point I was making is "if something is wrong on a large scale, then it is also wrong on a smaller scale".
You seem to be under the impression that I was saying that censoring Destiny is literally as bad as North Korea jailing people who don't worship the Dear Leader. That is not the case.
But here, let me use the opposite extreme to show you why this doesn't work. My boss tells me I need to stop calling all the women in the office, "sweet cheeks", "sugar baby" and "honey tits" but I don't want to. He fires me. What an asshole for trying to "force me" to do something right?
That is not the same situation at all.
A more comparable situation would be if you were at a bar and started calling women those things. Then the women decided that you need to be punished for your inappropriate behavior, so they went to your boss and demanded that you be fired from your job, or else they'll hold a public protest outside of your workplace.
If not, then there's clearly a line at which point "forcing" someone to do something or imposing consequences is acceptable.
I absolutely agree with this. But I cannot see how the situation of "a person is trying to put on an entertaining show for his audience, and part of it is that he's speaking his mind and being completely uncensored in front of an audience who can choose to watch or not watch it" is something that calls for this kind of response.
I'm sorry but if my analogy doesn't apply, how does your North Korean one apply? They're both an example of someone who has the power to make someone change their behavior or suffer consequences.
The defense of Destiny has left me so disappointed in the community. I though TLers were different than the other mouth-breathing, caveman gaming communities but I was wrong.
On May 06 2012 01:34 IPA wrote: The defense of Destiny has left me so disappointed in the community. I though TLers were different than the other mouth-breathing, caveman gaming communities but I was wrong.
He has fans. I don't see how hard it is to comprehend that.
On May 06 2012 01:34 IPA wrote: The defense of Destiny has left me so disappointed in the community. I though TLers were different than the other mouth-breathing, caveman gaming communities but I was wrong.
He has fans. I don't see how hard it is to comprehend that.
On May 05 2012 12:37 SergioCQH wrote: I am glad that a racist was kicked off a professional StarCraft 2 team. Destiny can be as racist as he wants on his stream, but that kind of behavior is unacceptable if he wants to be a part of the professional scene. One rotten apple spoils the whole bushel.
he is not a racist. Stop discriminating and stereotyping people.
Well, on one hand we can see on his stream multiples racists behavior and on the othe hand we have Destiny that want us to trust him that he's not racist ... ya if someone call a lot of people gook/nigger but assures me hes not racist, i'll believe him.
Yes, because signing on to TL requres an oath of chastity and never speak a foul word or troll on the internet.
And it is way out of proportion. As far as I see it it is an TL 'shitstorm' a 'minor' part of the sc2 community noticed it and see it as the death of e sports.
This is probably one of the growing pains of any community and needs discussion, but is not the 'Racist' vs 'treehugger' fight people make it out to be.
On May 06 2012 01:34 IPA wrote: The defense of Destiny has left me so disappointed in the community. I though TLers were different than the other mouth-breathing, caveman gaming communities but I was wrong.
He has fans. I don't see how hard it is to comprehend that.
To be honest, that's pretty hard to comprehend.
It may be difficult to comprehend how he has fans, but I was implying the defense of the guy is bc he actually does have fans. Sorry if there was confusion in that.
Like I said in the other thread, I hope the sc2 community does not become apathetic towards ladder BM. Will I cry over the occasional person who freaks out? no, but it should not be the norm as was seen in dota. You couldn't even concentrate or play a normal game because of the bitching taking place.
Do I disagree with the punishment, nope he was insulting mods by using ad hominem attacks to justify his own personal opinion. Whether or not it was his own personal stream, Wardensc is not a part of Destiny's stream. I doubt any consequences would have come about if Destiny mentioned the same words on stream instead of on screen which is a different story altogether.
Running to the sponsors rather than allowing Quantic time to respond was wrong imo.
Also, Wardensc while cheesy is a great guy haha. How could you BM warden....... Thats why I used to watch his stream until he stopped.
On May 05 2012 12:37 SergioCQH wrote: I am glad that a racist was kicked off a professional StarCraft 2 team. Destiny can be as racist as he wants on his stream, but that kind of behavior is unacceptable if he wants to be a part of the professional scene. One rotten apple spoils the whole bushel.
he is not a racist. Stop discriminating and stereotyping people.
Well, on one hand we can see on his stream multiples racists behavior and on the othe hand we have Destiny that want us to trust him that he's not racist ... ya if someone call a lot of people gook/nigger but assures me hes not racist, i'll believe him.
Can't help but think of something CatZ said a while back.
"Some people just don't have the mental capacity to understand context"
EPT
(No pun intended).
