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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft?
The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway, as has been disgustingly demonstrated by their willingness to shit on it and everyone who doesn't agree with them in a big way just because their favorite shock jock finally got some real consequences and they're reacting just the way every other immature child does when something is "unfair." They've been throwing a temper tantrum for a week now.
The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all.
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On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all.
Hahahahahaha holy shit you're crazy.
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On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all.
Good to know I'm an immature troll who's never contributed, I had no idea. Must have gotten confused during the years I've done occasional LRs, tournament participation and casting, and whatnot.
I can just feel the inclusive, welcoming community spirit from you.
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On May 06 2012 00:33 FlamingForce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all. Hahahahahaha holy shit you're crazy.
Great post, thanks for contributing. Perfect example of what he was saying.
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On May 06 2012 00:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:33 FlamingForce wrote:On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all. Hahahahahaha holy shit you're crazy. Great post, thanks for contributing. Perfect example of what he was saying.
Doesn't really matter cos people with that kind of an extremist idea of what's right and wrong will never take a logical answer or argument the right way.
I could tell you the exact same thing right now, I AM disgusted by what has happened, I only have to read the first line of his post to know that this guy has already condemned me for that, now why would I take the time to try and reason with someone like that?
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On May 06 2012 00:34 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all. Good to know I'm an immature troll who's never contributed, I had no idea. Must have gotten confused during the years I've done occasional LRs, tournament participation and casting, and whatnot. I can just feel the inclusive, welcoming community spirit from you.
There's no inclusive spirit coming from the people talking mega shit on the community, just a temper tantrum about how unfair it is and how there will be and by implication should be a worse consequence for the community because it's unfair and that should be how the world works, eye for an eye.
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On May 06 2012 00:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:34 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all. Good to know I'm an immature troll who's never contributed, I had no idea. Must have gotten confused during the years I've done occasional LRs, tournament participation and casting, and whatnot. I can just feel the inclusive, welcoming community spirit from you. There's no inclusive spirit coming from the people talking mega shit on the community, just a temper tantrum about how unfair it is and how there will be and by implication should be a worse consequence for the community because it's unfair and that should be how the world works, eye for an eye.
No, don't dodge by using 'people' as a collective. I am a person who doesn't like what happened. Therefore, you are referring directly to me. If you're going to use sweeping, exclusive statements, then be willing to stand up to individual cases.
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Gz Quantic. You don't need mediocre players, keep it classy.
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On May 06 2012 00:41 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:34 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all. Good to know I'm an immature troll who's never contributed, I had no idea. Must have gotten confused during the years I've done occasional LRs, tournament participation and casting, and whatnot. I can just feel the inclusive, welcoming community spirit from you. There's no inclusive spirit coming from the people talking mega shit on the community, just a temper tantrum about how unfair it is and how there will be and by implication should be a worse consequence for the community because it's unfair and that should be how the world works, eye for an eye. No, don't dodge by using 'people' as a collective. I am a person who doesn't like what happened. Therefore, you are referring directly to me. If you're going to use sweeping, exclusive statements, then be willing to stand up to individual cases.
You should have known that you weren't being included as from what I listed, you have not engaged in any of it. So either you're just actually in agreement with all the temper tantrums, or you can't tell the difference between being included or not.
So jump off that white horse.
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On May 05 2012 23:45 Mordiford wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 23:21 Chocobo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:17 Swift118 wrote:
Im not sure who is more sad; Destiny or all the neckbeards hating on him. I can answer that for you- it's side who is trying to control other people's actions. You still seem to be twisting this around. Destiny can do whatever the fuck he wants, he just has to deal with the consequences that come with it. He's in this situation because of his own behavior.
I'm sorry, but no. You are the one who isn't seeing this clearly. Just because Destiny physically has the ability to do what he wants, that doesn't mean that his opponents aren't trying to control his actions. And the "consequences that come with it" have dramatically changed because these people, acting as morality police, have decided to create more serious consequences for him.
This is a very extreme example, but suppose you lived in North Korea and got thrown in prison for not showing enough sadness at Kim Jong Il's funeral. Could I say "hey, you can do whatever you want, but now you're just dealing with the consequences of your actions"?
The point is that if the consequences are more extreme than what is appropriate for the situation, it's not a good thing.
There is nothing wrong with people letting Razer know that they don't like Destiny.
Yes. There. Is. YES THERE IS. I can't say this enough times!
If you don't like Destiny's stream, don't watch it. Don't support him. You can even stop watching competition that he is entered in.
But if something doesn't please you... just avoid it! You don't need to try to have it changed, or have it punished because you don't like it! If other people are entertained by it, let them enjoy it and you can go off and enjoy something else.
But the TL community wasn't mature enough to do that. Instead, the attitude of "fuck that guy, I don't like him, I want him to conform to my demands or else I'm going to do whatever I can to harm him" was used. That attitude is not fucking OK. There is something wrong with doing that.
And on a secondary level, it's bad for the growth of E-sports. Do you know what happens if this kind of action becomes more common? If Razer is being threatened with boycotts and PR nightmares on a frequent basis, they will simply stop sponsoring gaming teams, because it will stop being worth it.
Mass-complaining to a sponsor and threatening boycotts or public accusations of "this company doesn't care if people are racist!" is an action that should only be used as a last resort. Instead, this time it was one of the first ideas that people came up with, and the unthinking mob just followed along with it.
If people tried to make Thorzain use inappropriate language and slurs by complaining to Razer that mouz.Thorzain is too vanilla, it would accomplish fuck all in terms of actually hurting Mouz and just make Razer think the community is retarded.
Sure, some people who are squeaky clean would be immune to it. Many others, included well-liked players like Huk, have had their moments of inappropriate language, using "faggot" or "nigga" or whatever else. Get a big enough crowd and a handful of ugly screenshots and half the players out there could potentially get dropped from their teams.
Well, I think the situation of an angry mob of complainers demanding that people be fired is a pretty fucked up situation, and if it happens on a regular basis it will literally destroy E-sports.
This only worked because it was in line with Razer's views, I doubt they'd want themselves associated with racial slurs in any manner. It's that simple.
It worked because they can't afford to risk the PR problems of being seen as a company that doesn't punish those views. Quantic and Razer didn't give a shit about it previously. It worked because the angry mob forced them into a situation of having to choose to fire Destiny or risk a PR nightmare.
I stand by my statement that it is fucked up when things like people's employment status is determined via angry mob.
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On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway, as has been disgustingly demonstrated by their willingness to shit on it and everyone who doesn't agree with them in a big way just because their favorite shock jock finally got some real consequences and they're reacting just the way every other immature child does when something is "unfair." They've been throwing a temper tantrum for a week now. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all.
You are no better, putting labels on people, throwing in insults, using your fairly narrow minded opinion as if its fact. Much like everyone else has in this thread.
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On May 06 2012 00:28 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:23 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? Yeah it's causing rifts. Perhaps people are overreacting. But if the majority of people getting put out by this debate are people defending the use of racist terms as insults (which I think is the case), then I won't shed a tear if they end up leaving the community. Outsiders? They will see a community trying to stamp out immature offensive behaviour. I think that that is a positive aspect that will appeal to outsiders. I think the majority on the defensive here are more against the scale of the reaction because they don't find the issue a big deal, not in favor of racist terms. That's a pretty big difference. Don't simply write off people as 'oh, they like racist terms', because that's an easy way to dismiss reasonable objections. Unless people actually say that. Personally, I'd rather solidify the existing community than grab new people. If you lose your dedicated fanbase in favor of completely new people, that is not necessarily good. This event isn't going to do that, but it's not helpful. I can only speak for myself here, but I'm disgusted with the modern SC2 community. Why would I want to support it with this kind of screeching, self-righteous behavior in the name of TEH ESPORTS that flares up? I'd rather have a vulgar stream that I don't have to actually watch than an insufferable everyone-else that would discourage me participating at all.
Well I disagree that the majority are against the scale.
But let's say you're right. What should Destiny's punishment be (if anything)? I mean, all in all, he's been de-featured from TL, and he's parted ways with Quantic (which according to Destiny doesn't hurt him that much anyway). I believe these are reasonable reactions by private companies towards a person being rather offensive.
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The most interesting part is I'd wager that most of the people who "msg sponsors" and try to kill teams and esports are just trying to justify themselves, they most likely don't have anything that sponsor gives anyway... And most likely never planned to purchase it... It's just the vast majority of idiots who want to feel good for a day and play morality whistle the fact they are just as guilty on different levels for different things. It's pathetic.
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On May 06 2012 00:41 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:39 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:34 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all. Good to know I'm an immature troll who's never contributed, I had no idea. Must have gotten confused during the years I've done occasional LRs, tournament participation and casting, and whatnot. I can just feel the inclusive, welcoming community spirit from you. There's no inclusive spirit coming from the people talking mega shit on the community, just a temper tantrum about how unfair it is and how there will be and by implication should be a worse consequence for the community because it's unfair and that should be how the world works, eye for an eye. No, don't dodge by using 'people' as a collective. I am a person who doesn't like what happened. Therefore, you are referring directly to me. If you're going to use sweeping, exclusive statements, then be willing to stand up to individual cases.
Depends on why you're not okay with what happens. What's wrong with a team that's dependent on a sponsor not wanting to be associated with racial slurs and dropping a player as a result? That's literally how everything works and should work. If people want to behavior however they want, they shouldn't be expected to get paid by people who expect a certain level of self control.
If your reasoning is simply that there's nothing wrong with such language and people should be able to say whatever they want free of consequence then you're about as naive and unrealistic as the other people making similar arguments regardless of whether or not you're an "immature troll" or an otherwise contributing member. The stance is irrational.
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Haha destiny is hilarious.
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I'd rather have real gamers in the community then casuals who qq at everything. Holy shit, lets complain that blizz catered to mainstream casuals then do the exact same thing. Fuck "Esports". Fuck "professionalism". I want to see exciting people playing an exciting game. I want to see personalities. Why is MMA so popular? Because of storylines and personalities. If it was really just a matter of if this guy can beat up that guy or not then we wouldn't have started to see UFC on mainstream TV. We cheer for or against people because we like their personality or their style of fighting.
Here's the thing though; once a game gets figured out differences in style are very minimal. TLO used to be very exciting to watch because he could make the most random shit work. Once the game starts getting figured out, he can't do it anymore and nobody cares about him (in the nicest way possible....). How do you drive viewership? Storylines and personalities. Period. Not because people dressed up in a suit or tie and was professional while playing. So who is providing the passion or excitement in the game right now? Not the players; they get in trouble if they are the proverbial nail that sticks up. Not the casters; sorry tasteosis. You've been exposed. Those koreans are vastly superior. Do people seriously wonder why people care less now even though gameplay has been getting better and "esports" in the starcraft scene has been expanding? We have professional overlays for our SOTG and casting and stuff, but when's the last time there was a good hype video?
I don't want a game where tying anything but GG is an autolose, or even an accidental offensive GG creates a controversy. I don't want a game where FBH is the only guy in the world doing ceremonies. I don't want this game to be like american football where any gesture is penalized because it is "taunting". Man the fuck up. I don't want to see that "yay I won an important game, gonna go highfive everybody and sit down nowkthx" Get used to the fact that passion and excitement drive the game. If people are excited about something then sponsors come. When they are not, sponsors will leave. That simple. Here's the thing though, when you have passions and excitement not only do you have storylines and personalities and celebrations but sometimes you have rage too. It's all part of the game. Stop cutting parts out before you lose all of it.
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On May 06 2012 00:31 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? The people "disgusted" with the community are a vocal and very small minority of immature trolls who don't contribute anything to the community anyway, as has been disgustingly demonstrated by their willingness to shit on it and everyone who doesn't agree with them in a big way just because their favorite shock jock finally got some real consequences and they're reacting just the way every other immature child does when something is "unfair." They've been throwing a temper tantrum for a week now. The community would be 10x better off if every person in this thread who has spent hours talking shit about how people need to get some balls or a thick skin or how they have no life or are doing no good or how esports is being ruined and how it's just words and all the other immature taunting schoolyard bullshit would just leave like they keep saying they will and never come back. They won't be missed at all.
Yeah, I might have tried to put it nicer, but frankly I couldn't agree with you more.
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On May 06 2012 00:49 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 00:28 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:23 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 06 2012 00:09 Dfgj wrote:On May 06 2012 00:03 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On May 05 2012 23:52 Dfgj wrote:On May 05 2012 23:07 BoxingKangaroo wrote:
I think that a community that cares about its game will care about fostering a welcoming and all-inclusive community. This leaves little room for racist, sexist or homophobic remarks. Take one look at this thread, or the Orb situation, and tell me this is a welcoming or all-inclusive community. Not sure what point you're getting at. This episode and the Orb one are steps towards enabling as many people as possible to be included in the community. If this means people like Orb and Destiny aren't included, then so be it. And it's causing rifts in the existing community. The scale of these overreactions is doing more to make people disgusted with the TL/Reddit communities as they are than pulling in potential new people. There aren't two huge threads about this because people are happy and agree on it. It's also shifting the focus of people away from the actual game to petty drama and anger. What kind of community do outsiders see when they look at this? Is this a community actually about Starcraft? Yeah it's causing rifts. Perhaps people are overreacting. But if the majority of people getting put out by this debate are people defending the use of racist terms as insults (which I think is the case), then I won't shed a tear if they end up leaving the community. Outsiders? They will see a community trying to stamp out immature offensive behaviour. I think that that is a positive aspect that will appeal to outsiders. I think the majority on the defensive here are more against the scale of the reaction because they don't find the issue a big deal, not in favor of racist terms. That's a pretty big difference. Don't simply write off people as 'oh, they like racist terms', because that's an easy way to dismiss reasonable objections. Unless people actually say that. Personally, I'd rather solidify the existing community than grab new people. If you lose your dedicated fanbase in favor of completely new people, that is not necessarily good. This event isn't going to do that, but it's not helpful. I can only speak for myself here, but I'm disgusted with the modern SC2 community. Why would I want to support it with this kind of screeching, self-righteous behavior in the name of TEH ESPORTS that flares up? I'd rather have a vulgar stream that I don't have to actually watch than an insufferable everyone-else that would discourage me participating at all. Well I disagree that the majority are against the scale. But let's say you're right. What should Destiny's punishment be (if anything)? I mean, all in all, he's been de-featured from TL, and he's parted ways with Quantic (which according to Destiny doesn't hurt him that much anyway). I believe these are reasonable reactions by private companies towards a person being rather offensive.
When I say majority, I'm referring to majority of those who are also against what happened, not majority of the whole group ('majority on the defensive', as I put it). I don't think many people are supporting racist language so much as they don't think it's a big deal in the context of a ladder game. I hope that's the case, anyway.
What should it be? Well, I'm not really in a place to say that, so I can't give you a great answer. It should be something internal between Destiny and Quantic, if anything. My first thought would be 'as long as it's on his stream and not in tournament play, I don't care, people can choose not to support the stream (defeature, not watch)', but that doesn't work - he's still interacting with other players if he's typing it out to them, and you can't just decide to not play him. Like I said, not going to be able to give anything conclusive.
I don't agree with making it a large public issue and bringing the sponsor into it, however. If the person involved messaged Quantic and told them 'hey, this isn't good, talk to him about it', and then Destiny still decided to cut ties due to the issue, I'd be happier with it.
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This thread is getting most of its fuel from people who are eager to sneer at and condemn someone who's been caught. They think they are carrying the banner of justice for esports but really they are just looking like a lynch mob. Back at page 60 or so maybe you could argue it was still reasonable, but at this point, there's nothing honorable or commendable about your posts in this thread. You really are making yourselves look stupid, nothing else. It's also clear that at this point you're just trying to make up for your own wrongdoings by lambasting the wrongdoings of another. I'm sure you'll say I'm being hypocritical by posting in the thread myself, but someone has to do it so that newcomers to the site see that there are some reasonable people here. You've made your point, Destiny got punished, now leave it alone.
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On May 05 2012 23:54 Defacer wrote:
I think you're going to see more and more people complain about that kind of over-the-top verbal abuse in general, assuming SC2 continues to grow. Calling someone a failed abortion or an autistic retard is comical to the online gaming community, but is pretty much the kind of thing that alienates almost every one else in the world, and keeps it the community so insular.
It's one stream out of dozens of them. Anyone else in the world could be introduced to Starcraft streams and never come across anything offensive. There are dozens of streams they can watch, dozens of streams someone could introduce people to, that are all perfectly clean and G-rated.
I think the comedy business has done well, despite the fact that a small portion of it tells jokes that would offend some people. I think that television hasn't alienated the majority of the world, despite the fact that shows like South Park exist.
Let's put it this way -- I can't explain to my wife or my friends why this kind of behaviour is justifiable or 'part of the game'. I certainly wouldn't show them Destiny's stream to introduce them from Starcraft.
Then don't show it to them!
You do have the option to simply not show it to them. You are not required to show them every single stream out there! There is no need to force Destiny to change his ways!
Scrubbing out the most obvious offensive words from the lexicon -- racial and sexual slurs -- seems like the obvious choice.
Even Destiny has agreed on this point, now. The community is so vindictive and so prone to over-reaction that he has decided it's worth the trouble of censoring himself just a little bit, because otherwise the community will shit their pants and throw temper-tantrums that do harm to the growth of E-sports.
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EPT
