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Keep this civil, guys |
On May 05 2012 12:17 ChiknAdobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 15:53 ch33psh33p wrote:On May 04 2012 15:52 Blackfoger wrote:On May 04 2012 15:48 ch33psh33p wrote:
What a wonderfully toxic community. How is it toxic. I believe that it was very just such as what happened with orb. Don Imus got fired basically doing the same thing. Players should be policed Its toxic because it put the entirety of Quantic at risk over one disagreement that happened on ladder. Now imagine if this trend continues, players will cease to have ANY personality for fear of saying ONE thing wrong, and having a bunch of children email their sponsors, tagging them as CRITICAL, and having their entire team suffer. If personality means racial slurs then I think SC2 could do without it. I think we can have plenty of personality while still being professional
While the slurs may be an unfortunate shortcoming, he is right in that the community needs to get off their high horse and maliciously going after teams sponsors because of a players ladder game banter. Toxic is the perfect word for it. Destiny shouldn't change who he is, but Quantic also shouldn't be punished for it. While Destiny may not suffer directly based upon income, he and Quantic, I'm sure, would've rather the situation been dealt with internally. It's just unfortunate for both sides. Wish them both the best.
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On May 05 2012 12:18 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:58 ETisME wrote:On May 05 2012 11:50 Defacer wrote:On May 05 2012 11:42 ETisME wrote:
Ray Charles, the one that dominated 60s pop, country etc music was known to take drugs and have multiple affairs.
Did it stop the grow of the music genre? No, it exploded
Are you suggesting drug usage and cheating are better than non personal targeting racist slur?
I sure hope you find music is globally awesome Bro, Ray Charles was a brilliant, gifted savant musician that brought R'n'B into the mainstream. Destiny is a masters-to-GM SC2 player that survives off people watching him troll other players on the internet. He's about as significant to his field as a funny bartender is to the food industry. Trust me guys, WE'LL SURVIVE THIS!!!!!! So then are you saying that if Destiny was ray charles of SC2, then his bad doings are ok, even if it is not socially acceptable? I don't see people saying "he isn't good enough so he cannot use racist slur/take drugs" I see people saying Destiny is bad for the scene because he is a figure head (which ray charles is even a bigger one in the world) and yet one is considered to be ok? It's just this logic that really confuses me I'm simply saying that if Destiny is the Ray Charles, Michael Jordan, George Carlin, Stephen Hawking, Gene Kelley, Mark Zuckerberg or Amadeus Mozart of SC2, than maybe -- just maybe -- I would understand the argument that Destiny's employers or sponsors should be more tolerant of his behaviour. Destiny is none of these things. He's not the Ray Charles of SC2. He's not even the Idra of SC2. He's a funny but mediocre individual that has to play by the same rules as the rest of society. It's not fair, but that's the way the world works. Unless you are truly exceptional -- so much that the value you bring to your industry or field grossly outweighs your social shortcomings -- you would have to be delusional not to expect consequences for your behaviour.
the employers know Destiny uses the words and still employed him.
The emailing to sponsor thing is the key issue here, they told the sponsors to do something (as this guy has talked about sponsoring experience on reddit here: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/t6zn1/as_a_sponsor_to_the_community/)
His benefit to the community (entertainment and charity for example, at least around 4000 people find values in his stream anyway) outweighed the shortcomings until the emailing to sponsor starts.
This is the problem: the community was divided into two stances, but the ones that disapprove of his behavior only have to email sponsor to overthrow every single argument that the other side has to offer.
So the judgement of "benefit and cost" is not by the community, it is by the action of how many people emailing to sponsors.
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On May 05 2012 12:23 AirportSecurity wrote:Dont be a bitch just say it
I believe his point was that it comes off slightly odd when a privileged white American tells people they need to grow thicker skin when it comes to racial insensitivity.
Just a thought.
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Good Luck in League of Legends destiny.
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I kinda wish that if people didn't like a streamer they would just not watch him 
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On May 05 2012 12:16 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 11:57 adrenaLinG wrote:On May 05 2012 10:49 BeeNu wrote:On May 05 2012 10:46 Malgrif wrote:
all he does by being himself is hurt himself Sure, if by "hurt himself" you mean "refuses to bend to mob mentality". On May 05 2012 10:47 aebriol wrote:
I wonder how many people that are against Destiny, are against other entertainers that use terms that can be seen as offensive.
Like, oh, most any rappers ...
Or hell, anyone that use the word 'bitch'
Destiny ... is not a top level progamer first and foremost, he is an entertaining streamer, for an adult audience.
I don't see why there's not room for that in the sc2 community.
imo we are getting this problem because this community is filled with entitled little suburban kids craving power in any form they can find it in, I really, really doubt these folks give two damns about the ethical factors in any of this, they just see a way to fuck with a progamer and jump at the chance. "mob mentality"? Living in a society where people cannot throw racist language each other than people find offensive is part of a "mob"? The reaction on these forums was a perfect example of mob mentality. Started out with a few people going "look what Destiny said", "what a dick", "ugh I hate that guy"... then more people joined the group and escalated the language. "He can't say stuff like that!" "That's so inappropriate, we have to do something about it!" And then, the call to action. "I know, guys! Let's all spam Quantic and Razer with emails and try to get him fired! Let's fuck with the employment status of the guy we don't like!" "Yeah!" "Great idea, I'm doing it now!" No one stopped to think if it was the appropriate thing to be doing. It was the standard angry mob mentality, escalating the negativity and then jumping into action without thinking things through. Show nested quote +If anything, the little entitled suburban kids are white knights like you rushing to defend destiny for calling everyone niggers because, well, you want to call everyone niggers. Fuck this argument so much. "If you don't support required Christian prayers in school, it's because you worship Satan and want to spread evil throughout the world!" "If you don't agree with China censoring the internet, it's because you hate traditional Chinese values and you want to see them all replaced with Western consumerist capitalism!" I mean... really? That's actually your argument? That's your well thought out explanation that supports your beliefs? "Anyone who values uncensored speech over political correctness just wants call people niggers!" What a joke.
You remind me of a Voltaire quote I read the other day.
Better is the enemy of good.
-Voltaire
The biggest problem with the SC2 scene becoming "better" by being "more professional" is that we already have a really good thing going.
As long as I'm using Voltaire quotes to argue:
He was a great patriot, a humanitarian, a loyal friend; provided, of course, he really is dead.
-Voltaire
I'm sure this effect is part of the reason why people like me are arguing in this topic. Non-destiny fans recognize how bad this is, and we paint him as normal player now. I am still not condoning what happened.
Finally:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
-Voltaire
really is the answer to this thread. Was it hate-speech destiny was using? No. It was rage speech.
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On May 05 2012 12:03 AirportSecurity wrote:
Trolls - 1
Destiny - 0
Eh, I don't know, the guy earns a living playing video games and he doesn't even have to win. That seems like it is at least worth a few points.
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On May 05 2012 12:26 OtoshimonoU wrote:
Good Luck in League of Legends destiny.
This, you going need it.
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On May 05 2012 12:26 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 12:23 AirportSecurity wrote:On May 05 2012 12:22 Klogon wrote:
Edit: I'm staying clear of this. Dont be a bitch just say it I believe his point was that it comes off slightly odd when a privileged white American tells people they need to grow thicker skin when it comes to racial insensitivity. Just a thought.
I hate this idea so much. Extreme feminists and anti-racists basically ruin the white males experience of arguments on those subjects. Do we need to get a black man to post he isn't offended by the N word?
If you want to root out racism and swearing, progamers in a niche community is not the place to start, Neither is emailing sponsors. It's passively not supporting them that is okay. Otherwise, as LiquidTyler pointed out in a SOTG the other day, we have people who never email sponsors about how much they love them emailing hate mail. It's hypocratic, and immature.
Orb and Destiny are really the things I never expected.
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I am glad that a racist was kicked off a professional StarCraft 2 team. Destiny can be as racist as he wants on his stream, but that kind of behavior is unacceptable if he wants to be a part of the professional scene. One rotten apple spoils the whole bushel.
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On May 05 2012 12:32 Tehs Tehklz wrote:Eh, I don't know, the guy earns a living playing video games and he doesn't even have to win. That seems like it is at least worth a few points.
His name is tainted, he would have to spawn as a new human to get any positive recognition in the sc2 scene
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On May 05 2012 12:36 Bippzy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 12:26 Leth0 wrote:On May 05 2012 12:23 AirportSecurity wrote:On May 05 2012 12:22 Klogon wrote:
Edit: I'm staying clear of this. Dont be a bitch just say it I believe his point was that it comes off slightly odd when a privileged white American tells people they need to grow thicker skin when it comes to racial insensitivity. Just a thought. I hate this idea so much. Extreme feminists and anti-racists basically ruin the white males experience of arguments on those subjects. Do we need to get a black man to post he isn't offended by the N word? If you want to root out racism and swearing, progamers in a niche community is not the place to start, Neither is emailing sponsors. It's passively not supporting them that is okay. Otherwise, as LiquidTyler pointed out in a SOTG the other day, we have people who never email sponsors about how much they love them emailing hate mail. It's hypocratic, and immature. Orb and Destiny are really the things I never expected.
So tell us all about your personal experience with racial discrimination and / or sexual abuse. I'm interested to hear all about it.
That or make some abstract argument about why you having a black friend makes it ok for you to call people 'niggers' because they beat you in a video game.
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On May 05 2012 12:37 SergioCQH wrote:
I am glad that a racist was kicked off a professional StarCraft 2 team. Destiny can be as racist as he wants on his stream, but that kind of behavior is unacceptable if he wants to be a part of the professional scene. One rotten apple spoils the whole bushel.
he is not a racist. Stop discriminating and stereotyping people.
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On May 05 2012 12:26 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 12:18 Defacer wrote:On May 05 2012 11:58 ETisME wrote:On May 05 2012 11:50 Defacer wrote:On May 05 2012 11:42 ETisME wrote:
Ray Charles, the one that dominated 60s pop, country etc music was known to take drugs and have multiple affairs.
Did it stop the grow of the music genre? No, it exploded
Are you suggesting drug usage and cheating are better than non personal targeting racist slur?
I sure hope you find music is globally awesome Bro, Ray Charles was a brilliant, gifted savant musician that brought R'n'B into the mainstream. Destiny is a masters-to-GM SC2 player that survives off people watching him troll other players on the internet. He's about as significant to his field as a funny bartender is to the food industry. Trust me guys, WE'LL SURVIVE THIS!!!!!! So then are you saying that if Destiny was ray charles of SC2, then his bad doings are ok, even if it is not socially acceptable? I don't see people saying "he isn't good enough so he cannot use racist slur/take drugs" I see people saying Destiny is bad for the scene because he is a figure head (which ray charles is even a bigger one in the world) and yet one is considered to be ok? It's just this logic that really confuses me I'm simply saying that if Destiny is the Ray Charles, Michael Jordan, George Carlin, Stephen Hawking, Gene Kelley, Mark Zuckerberg or Amadeus Mozart of SC2, than maybe -- just maybe -- I would understand the argument that Destiny's employers or sponsors should be more tolerant of his behaviour. Destiny is none of these things. He's not the Ray Charles of SC2. He's not even the Idra of SC2. He's a funny but mediocre individual that has to play by the same rules as the rest of society. It's not fair, but that's the way the world works. Unless you are truly exceptional -- so much that the value you bring to your industry or field grossly outweighs your social shortcomings -- you would have to be delusional not to expect consequences for your behaviour. the employers know Destiny uses the words and still employed him. The emailing to sponsor thing is the key issue here, they told the sponsors to do something (as this guy has talked about sponsoring experience on reddit here: http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/t6zn1/as_a_sponsor_to_the_community/)His benefit to the community (entertainment and charity for example, at least around 4000 people find values in his stream anyway) outweighed the shortcomings until the emailing to sponsor starts. This is the problem: the community was divided into two stances, but the ones that disapprove of his behavior only have to email sponsor to overthrow every single argument that the other side has to offer. So the judgement of "benefit and cost" is not by the community, it is by the action of how many people emailing to sponsors.
You need to do more than draw 4000 fans. Not to mention that I've never heard Destiny promote his sponsors or even place high enough in a tournament to give his sponsors any significant exposure.
You might value him as a community member, but we're not his employer or 'sponsor'. All the ad revenue his stream generates goes directly to him. There is simply very little benefit for Quantic or his sponsors to make concessions or stick his neck out of him.
Compare this to someone like IdrA, who can regularly draw up to 10,000 viewers to his stream, participates in almost every tournament that he is physically able to, has a proven track record of boosting viewership of any tournament he participates, and rattles off EG's litany of sponsors happily with a consistent and almost comical frequency.
To me, Quantic and Destiny parting is a no-brainer. They're both better off.
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So dissapointed in the starcraft community right now.
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On May 05 2012 12:40 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 12:37 SergioCQH wrote:
I am glad that a racist was kicked off a professional StarCraft 2 team. Destiny can be as racist as he wants on his stream, but that kind of behavior is unacceptable if he wants to be a part of the professional scene. One rotten apple spoils the whole bushel. he is not a racist. Stop discriminating and stereotyping people.
Your assertion that he is not a racist has no evidence to support it. He might very well not be racist, but there is nothing to indicate it. My assertion that he is a racist has SOME evidence to support it. Not conclusive evidence, but some evidence.
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On May 05 2012 12:39 Leth0 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 12:36 Bippzy wrote:On May 05 2012 12:26 Leth0 wrote:On May 05 2012 12:23 AirportSecurity wrote:On May 05 2012 12:22 Klogon wrote:
Edit: I'm staying clear of this. Dont be a bitch just say it I believe his point was that it comes off slightly odd when a privileged white American tells people they need to grow thicker skin when it comes to racial insensitivity. Just a thought. I hate this idea so much. Extreme feminists and anti-racists basically ruin the white males experience of arguments on those subjects. Do we need to get a black man to post he isn't offended by the N word? If you want to root out racism and swearing, progamers in a niche community is not the place to start, Neither is emailing sponsors. It's passively not supporting them that is okay. Otherwise, as LiquidTyler pointed out in a SOTG the other day, we have people who never email sponsors about how much they love them emailing hate mail. It's hypocratic, and immature. Orb and Destiny are really the things I never expected. So tell us all about your personal experience with racial discrimination and / or sexual abuse. I'm interested to hear all about it.
Exactly. I am a rich white male privileged spoiled gets all the GSL gets all the MLG built his own computer sings music all day while people starve in Africa. I throw away food I don't like. I don't work while people in the ghetto have to work to live on a day to day basis.
So, read this again, and try to get the right information out of it.
I hate this idea so much. Extreme feminists and anti-racists basically ruin the white males experience of arguments on those subjects. Do we need to get a black man to post he isn't offended by the N word?
If you want to root out racism and swearing, progamers in a niche community is not the place to start, Neither is emailing sponsors. It's passively not supporting them that is okay. Otherwise, as LiquidTyler pointed out in a SOTG the other day, we have people who never email sponsors about how much they love them emailing hate mail. It's hypocratic, and immature.
I have no experience with any of that. I lead a cushioned life. I would venture to say destiny wasn't hurting anybody, or even intending to. So, there.
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Russian Federation396 Posts
I've joined the game and the community cause of destiny, he made this game FUN.
If thats the only reason you thought this game was 'fun' than i feel very sad for you. Maybe maplestory is more of a gaming choice for you.
Do you see all these other pros giving out free advice always? no, you dont , Do you see all these other streamers do as much for the community as destiny has? no, you don't.
White-Ra, Brat_OK, Attero, Minigun, IdrA, Axslav, Grubby just to name a few, all stream with commentary, all are arguably better players, while they dont always do commentary, neither does Destiny.
I'm disappointed in TeamLiquid. Banning someones cause of his freedom of speech didnt go the way you wanted. He's right about context of using words and there is even a term for it. The Locutionary act. When you display words that Society doesn't like, why is it bad besides political correctness? It's not, there is no physical harm for this. It's just ignorance at taking a word offensively for very little reason.
Yes, constantly calling people autistic is completely harmless. At the same time, Teamliquid has rules, and as its their site, and he wants his stream featured here, its their rules that apply, not his. "Locutionary act"... rofl do you have any clue what this means? because it doesnt apply here the way you want it to - if even at all.
That being said, ive met destiny irl, and hes a really nice guy.
this explains alot.
You can call me a retarded destiny fanboy
fanboy.
Cool story bros, lynch moar people that do more for "esports" than you ever will in your entire lifetime.
Thumbs up for him for that, but that doesnt mean standard tl rules dont apply to him.
EDIT: i forgot to mention, destiny has been playing so much league of legends recently that from the several times ive seen/heard about his stream, starcraft 2 hasnt been played very much (if at all) in the last week (my roommate watch's his stream quite often)
Done with this sheit community.
bye
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Why could you not contact the team quantic? Instead of go after their funding from sponsors and potentially damaging the livelihood of the entire team just because you disagree with a certain players actions.
Just like you these people have the dream of ESPORTS but you do not care whatsoever who gets in the way of your crusades.
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On May 05 2012 12:44 Bippzy wrote:
If you want to root out racism and swearing, progamers in a niche community is not the place to start, Neither is emailing sponsors. It's passively not supporting them that is okay. Otherwise, as LiquidTyler pointed out in a SOTG the other day, we have people who never email sponsors about how much they love them emailing hate mail. It's hypocratic, and immature.
I do think there are people that are unfairly trying to burn Destiny at the stake, but dealing with issues such as racism or sexism in your own community that you care about is the best place to start.
There will always be some form of bigotry in the world, but the least people can do is choose and shape the communities they are already in.
But that's neither here or there. Good luck Destiny, hope he can sustain his income with the cult of personality he's sown.
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EPT
