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Think twice before hitting post; this thread will be moderated for idiocy and useless posts. Consider this a warning. |
On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch.
Are you seriously incapable of drawing a distinction between 'bad manner', the equivalent of not fucking GG'ing in a stupid video game, and using racist fucking words. How the fuck do you even breathe
User was warned for this post
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I disagree with the argument, prevalent in this thread, that it is Destiny's right to use racist language. No one has the right to use racist language. We need to realize a distinction between political rights moral rights. I think it is pretty uncontroversial that destiny has a political right to use racist language, up to a point (after a certain point, this right can be forfeit because of laws against assault and slander, etc.). I'm not interested in arguing about his political rights.
What I think is clear is that he has no moral right, no one has a moral right, to use racist language. And this is even independent of whether it is being directed at a particular individual or not. The language is morally destructive regardless; its use is even destructive to destiny himself. It's not right, we all know it's not right. So once we disambiguate the political/moral issues, I think it's pretty obvious that the issue here has nothing at all to do with free speech. No one has a moral right to express themselves in racist language.
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Destiny has defended his position before about his language before. Personally I am not offended by language. I understand some people may be though. My suggestion to people that dislike Destiny's language would be to not watch his stream, watch his stream muted and mute or better, block him so he cannot send you messages. As far as I am concerned this language thing is only an issue to those being offended by it. It should not be Destiny's job to censor himself and not be himself just to please others.
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Pff... destiny. What else would you expect? /sigh
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On May 02 2012 07:10 dsousa wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:08 Psychobabas wrote:
here we go again...
bring the pitchforks!!!
except this time it won't work vs Destiny... Exactly, it won't work, and next time the pitchforks won't scare anyone.
And then everyone would just spout racial slurs
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I've already e-mailed Quantic asking that they stop supporting Destiny, but do they have any other sponsors besides Razer? I thought so but I don't see any on their site.
I already wrote e-mails like this when he was on root, I didn't think I'd have to do it again.
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On May 02 2012 07:19 Bananafish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch. Are you seriously incapable of drawing a distinction between 'bad manner', the equivalent of not fucking GG'ing in a stupid video game, and using racist fucking words. How the fuck do you even breathe
From context it doesn't even seem like the OP was Korean, the OP just bm'd Destiny and got rage in return.
There's a huge difference between using slurs and being a racist.
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On May 02 2012 07:20 GreenFaction wrote:
I disagree with the argument, prevalent in this thread, that it is Destiny's right to use racist language. No one has the right to use racist language. We need to realize a distinction between political rights moral rights. I think it is pretty uncontroversial that destiny has a political right to use racist language, up to a point (after a certain point, this right can be forfeit because of laws against assault and slander, etc.). I'm not interested in arguing about his political rights.
What I think is clear is that he has no moral right, no one has a moral right, to use racist language. And this is even independent of whether it is being directed at a particular individual or not. The language is morally destructive regardless; its use is even destructive to destiny himself. It's not right, we all know it's not right. So once we disambiguate the political/moral issues, I think it's pretty obvious that the issue here has nothing at all to do with free speech. No one has a moral right to express themselves in racist language.
Are you prepared to debate Destiny on this if he asked you? Morality and politics are both very deep philosophical topics that go beyond what you think is the absolute immutable truth.
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I dont get it why any types of insults are fine as long as they are not racial like nigger, gook or w/e ?
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He defended it again as well, not sure if you saw his public apology on his Twitter or not 
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Destiny does have a right, at least in the USA, to use racist language. However, everyone else also has the right to tell him he is a dingus and to tell his sponsors they will not be supporting them as long as they support someone who uses racial slurs.
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On May 02 2012 07:19 Bananafish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch. Are you seriously incapable of drawing a distinction between 'bad manner', the equivalent of not fucking GG'ing in a stupid video game, and using racist fucking words. How the fuck do you even breathe
What the difference between the very thing you just said and using ' racist fucking word'.
It's only on the internet that you can see people with such colorful vocabulary being offended by the term 'gook' even when the one who says the term isn't said to not be a racist by the one making the accusation.
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On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch.
I just want to point out that's it's really really pathetic and sad that people watch him because he uses racist language.
if you watch him for other reasons and ignore the language, fine.
but if that is seriously what motivates you to click on his name, as you have just said? wow.
but I mean hey why should he grow up or be less insensitive when people jump to support him? obviously actually being adult, controlling what he says at all... these things have no value to him or his viewers. and clearly his play in and of itself has no value to anyone either.
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Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 02:22 Destiny wrote:
Using a racial slur is just encapsulating decades/centuries of racist thought in one small, representative term. The term is understood to be used for that intent and to represent that by the general public. Your use of it is of absolutely no utility except for the fact that it is viewed as an offensive term, so you use it in anger. If the word had other utility, such as the word "niggardly," for example, then you'd have a point. But the only reason these words exist in the vernacular is as an offensive, racist term. You perpetuate that by continually and purposefully using it. You're wrong. I don't know how else to say it, but what you're writing here might sound smart/educated, but it's just entirely fucking stupid. I don't even know how to start tearing apart the idiocy of this statement. "Using a racial slur is encapsulating decades/centuries of racist thought"...so what if a 12 year old used the word "nigger" because he overheard his friends saying it as an insult, or even a term of endearment? You understand that can't possibly convey all of that racist thought without even understanding where the word comes from, right? That's just 1 in MILLIONS of different ways that a word can change or aqcuire a new meaning. Actually, let's play a game. I'm going to change your statement a bit, see if you can pick out what's changed. Show nested quote +Using the word faggot is just encapsulating decades/centuries of what a bundle of sticks is in one small, representative term. The term is understood to be used for that intent and to represent that by the general public. Your use of it is of absolutely no utility except for the fact that it is viewed as a term for a bundle of sticks, so you use it in anger. If the word had other utility, such as the word "stick-bundle," for example, then you'd have a point. But the only reason these words exist in the vernacular is as describing a pile of sticks. You perpetuate that by continually and purposefully using it. Do you see how blatantly idiotic your statement seems, now? Show nested quote +Your obvious counter-point will be that black rappers use it with relative impunity. First of all, they don't use it with absolute impunity. There are many civil rights groups that denounce the use of this term by black rappers. lol, no one gives a fuck about those statements by those groups. I think that there's a Jay-Z quote that actually perfectly sums up my feelings about it, from the same "Say Hello", off of the album "American Gangster" And if Al Sharpton is speakin for me Somebody, give him the word and tell him I don't approve Tell him I remove the curses If you tell me our schools gon' be perfect When Jena Six don't exist Tell him that's when I'll stop sayin bitch, BEEEITCH~! Show nested quote +Second of all, the context of the word coming from a black person is much different than coming from that of a white person. This is the most racist thing you've said so far. Sorry. "He can use this word just because of his skin color." Show nested quote +A black person could be using it to represent what his ancestors went through or using it in parody to refer to other people. lol? The average black person has spent about as much time in slavery as the average white person. This statement is fucking ridiculous.
Hi Destiny,
I appreciate your well-thought out reply.
You seem to be confusing my commentary on your academic analysis of racially offensive terms or phrases and contemporary acceptance of them.
2 things:
1) Approaching the idea of a racially offensive term is a difficult thing to do. It sometimes makes no sense, as I conceded before, how some terms are arbitrarily chosen as extremely offensive and others, which are similar, are simply disregarded. It also can seem somewhat arbitrary that one group of people can use a phrase and have it be ok while another cannot. I don't disagree with you here.
But you missed my primary point entirely. I was talking more about the perception of society as a whole. Most people perceive use of the "n-word" (excuse my use of euphemisms, but I don't want to use that word in print, even if in an academic discussion) or other racially charged terms as highly insulting or offensive. The reason that society has come to this conclusion is the not-so-distant history of racism in our country. With reference to your "G" word, it was originally used in reference to communist Vietnamese soldiers in the heat of battle. This connotation is not too far in the past. The "n-word" needs no explanation.
You derive no utility out of the use of these words except to offend people. Your intent is the controlling factor here. Your analogy to the word "faggot" (in before you point out a slight bit of a hypocrisy here) makes no sense. "Bundle of sticks" is not the accepted vernacular use of the word (while it is, of course, an accepted dictionary definition). In fact, no one uses it for that. If they did, the context would be clear.
The existence of the word is to be used as a derogatory term for homosexuals. It's a term I used for a long time before a few individuals explained to me how hurtful it is to them. I stopped. Why? Because it meant nothing to me to stop. I don't advocate broad censorship, but there is a small class of language that is extremely hurtful to people and it bears no burden on me to stop use of it. Plus, it reflects very poorly on my character to use such a charged term. There's plenty of other words I can use.
Again, I'm not advocating an absurdity here. I don't think every single person has a right to get offended at every single word. But it is very easy to draw at least one bright line at the most offensive words, and I don't think that list is all that long. See: the auto-profanity filters for some VBB based forums which just censor racism.
2) Let's assume for the sake of argument that you and I agree that people who get offended at the use of racial slurs are in the wrong. (This is not the case. I do not think they are in the wrong.)
From a marketing and spectator standpoint as a prominent member of the SC2 community, you do no favors using terms WIDELY accepted by a VAST MAJORITY of the American public to be HIGHLY offensive over and over again without apology. In the heat of the moment or anger followed by an apology or concerted effort not to do it again is one thing, but systematically doing it with no regrets is something else.
Even if I thought these people were in the wrong, I'd still implore you to stop. Mainstream America will not accept such bold language or offensive insults, and it will hurt the economy of SC2 as a whole to have someone at the forefront (and I would say you are easily one of the 10 most visible personalities of the entire game, at least in the US) aggressively brandishing a tongue like that. It does not reflect well on the community as a whole. Are people right to judge all of us by one, minority of a figurehead? No. Will they do it anyways? Absolutely, and no social revolution you are engineering by spamming racial slurs on your stream each night is going to change that. It's simply something you must accept if you want to go about functioning in every day society.
Would you use this language openly in the grocery store? Would you do it openly in Washington, DC? Would you do it at a wedding? I think not. Why not? The same should apply to online.
P.S. - I am very, very far from a super sensitive PC person. I'm on the other side of the debate. I even found myself agreeing (partially) with Bill Maher recently (and I never thought I'd say that), when he wrote a very interest column on how the PC sensitivity in society has reached an absurd level. I agree. However, I have no qualms about drawing the lines at rampant and wanton use of the "n-word" and other highly charged terms.
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On May 02 2012 07:19 Bananafish wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch. Are you seriously incapable of drawing a distinction between 'bad manner', the equivalent of not fucking GG'ing in a stupid video game, and using racist fucking words. How the fuck do you even breathe
"Using words" versus "using other words". Anyone else remember the thread about the word "rape"? There should either be a site-wide policy on being offensive or no policy at all. Picking and choosing what offensive words are allowed and what offensive words aren't will never, ever fly.
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On May 02 2012 07:22 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch. I just want to point out that's it's really really pathetic and sad that people watch him because he uses racist language. if you watch him for other reasons and ignore the language, fine. but if that is seriously what motivates you to click on his name, as you have just said? wow. but I mean hey why should he grow up or be less insensitive when people jump to support him? obviously actually being adult, controlling what he says at all... these things have no value to him or his viewers. and clearly his play in and of itself has no value to anyone either.
Yes, Destiny provides entertainment for his viewers, and yes, that's why they watch him.
I don't see why this is surprise, you aren't going to change it, and if he really aggravates you, ignore him. You never have to watch a single minute of his stream.
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On May 02 2012 07:22 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:20 GreenFaction wrote:
I disagree with the argument, prevalent in this thread, that it is Destiny's right to use racist language. No one has the right to use racist language. We need to realize a distinction between political rights moral rights. I think it is pretty uncontroversial that destiny has a political right to use racist language, up to a point (after a certain point, this right can be forfeit because of laws against assault and slander, etc.). I'm not interested in arguing about his political rights.
What I think is clear is that he has no moral right, no one has a moral right, to use racist language. And this is even independent of whether it is being directed at a particular individual or not. The language is morally destructive regardless; its use is even destructive to destiny himself. It's not right, we all know it's not right. So once we disambiguate the political/moral issues, I think it's pretty obvious that the issue here has nothing at all to do with free speech. No one has a moral right to express themselves in racist language. Are you prepared to debate Destiny on this if he asked you? Morality and politics are both very deep philosophical topics that go beyond what you think is the absolute immutable truth.
Because people who get mad over a video game and result to calling people 'fucking faggot gooks' are not worth debating. You are never going to convince a person who thinks like that they they are wrong and just being childish.
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On May 02 2012 07:11 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:04 Femari wrote:On May 02 2012 06:59 knOxStarcraft wrote:On May 02 2012 06:53 henreiman wrote:
I'm sure this has been said before, but hilarious that at least five or six posts on the first page are telling OP to "grow up" when people recently crucified Orb for similar postings. Just goes to show that once you reach a certain celebrity people stop caring about respectfulness and tact.
Let's look at this from a different perspective, perhaps? We all want e-sports to go mainstream, right? For players to make 6 figure salaries and fans to have incredible experiences in massive hotels watching amazing tournaments worldwide? How can we honestly say this is going to happen when the community accepts this horrific language as normal practice. How can we yell at Idra for six-pooling and then be ok with racial slurs and intolerant epithets. What do you think an NBA athlete would get for saying these things? Think about the fact that there have been people fired from ESPN and news shows simply for inappropriate comments (chink in the armor, joke about penis size) regarding Jeremy Lin.
This is absolutely unacceptable and it is our responsibility to fix it. I hate to keep adding to this idiotic thread but he said it on his personal stream which makes it different then someone from ESPN saying a racial slur. The fact is most people posting here wouldn't even know he does these things unless this guy posted something about it. No actually that's not different. Even if it is on his personal stream he is still a public figure employed by Quantic. If any ESPN employee or personality said that on a stream they'd be fired immediately. The only thing that makes it different is the community believing that racist remarks are okay and Quantic obviously not giving a fuck about how their players act. His "personal" stream is also at the TOP of the featured streams list (usually by virtue of alphabetical order) on this SC2/BW community website. Disregarding the branding of Quantic, the branding of TeamLiquid itself is at stake and worth protecting. Idra getting banned for calling Crusher a waste of life, while Destiny's constant use of hate speech for rager ratings is swept under the rug is a sign of mixed messages.
Bottom of Site:
"The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff."
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On May 02 2012 07:22 gun.slinger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2012 07:19 Bananafish wrote:On May 02 2012 07:16 Deathmanbob wrote:On May 02 2012 07:12 IshinShishi wrote:
Gook is extremely offensive, I wouldn't expect anything less than him being unfeatured. i expect that you will not get what you are expecting. do we REALLY have to do this every time someone pisses off someone? OHHHHH NOOOO the guy known for bm said something mean to me next we will be making threads when idra doesnt gg before leaving a game. Lets all chill out and relax, we all know that destiny stream is a little bit crazy but i know thats why i watch. Are you seriously incapable of drawing a distinction between 'bad manner', the equivalent of not fucking GG'ing in a stupid video game, and using racist fucking words. How the fuck do you even breathe What the difference between the very thing you just said and using ' racist fucking word'. It's only on the internet that you can see people with such colorful vocabulary being offended by the term 'gook' even when the one who says the term isn't said to not be a racist by the one making the accusation.
because curses aren't the same as slurs. slurs are meant to offend specific groups of people, they make them to be less than.
and it's not always about actually being racist. there is negativity in just using racist language. ditto calling people "faggot". you might support gay marriage! but calling people "faggot" in a way that is meant to make them feel bad is homophobic language, it's bad.
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