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On April 27 2012 02:39 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 02:00 Caihead wrote:On April 27 2012 01:56 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On April 27 2012 01:30 Sejanus wrote:
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene  Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene. I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/ Post it on blog ^_^ I don't mind reading about it or if you want you can also post it on broodwar forum also.
LOL i would be so interested as well. like i said after really getting into sc2, i really learned to appreciate watching BW VoDs and what was happening and exactly why it is so difficult to do what they are doing. If BW players can bring that same level of intesity and skill, it would be absolutely awesome.
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On April 27 2012 02:44 MDMA_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 02:39 Sawamura wrote:On April 27 2012 02:00 Caihead wrote:On April 27 2012 01:56 ProxyKnoxy wrote:On April 27 2012 01:30 Sejanus wrote:
Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim.
Why so many broodwar gamers are so ignorant of the current SC2 pro scene Dumb comment. You are probably equally as ignorant of the BW scene. I'm thinking about making a gigantic thread to introduce bw strategy / key players / history in the SC2 general forums but I don't even know if it would be appreciated given the responses :/ Post it on blog ^_^ I don't mind reading about it or if you want you can also post it on broodwar forum also. LOL i would be so interested as well. like i said after really getting into sc2, i really learned to appreciate watching BW VoDs and what was happening and exactly why it is so difficult to do what they are doing. If BW players can bring that same level of intesity and skill, it would be absolutely awesome.
blaugh i need to get on that then
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Bisu as Terran? NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Skills and good looks aside, Bisu was popular in BW because he played Protoss which were the underdogs and least played at high levels, and this hasn't changed much in SC2 (not counting the last 2 months). Terran has such a bad rep now for dominating too much that switching to Terran might take away from his fame and glory.
Plus I won't be able to jack his builds T_T
Jaedong, Bisu and Flash FIGHTING!
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On April 27 2012 01:17 Zergneedsfood wrote:Show nested quote +On April 26 2012 23:16 MDMA_ wrote:On April 26 2012 23:09 ppdealer wrote:On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote:lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers" ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well? On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no? You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic. YOU need to get your eyes cleared. " Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players. Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim. This has nothing to do with wc3 or whatever. It's just showing the easy transition from one game to the other. I'm fine with wc3 players doing well in SC2. It's natural that there are people who are just naturally good at RTS games.........like Flash. Maybe I have an underlying message, but that doesn't really matter. At this point, people are just debating the same position. People are saying BW players are going to rape. And then other people are saying that BW players are going to rape later. At this point, I think the one thing that the BW/SC2 community can mutually agree on is that BW players are going to stomp out the current crop in some unknown time span. There are of course people who still believe in a blossoming foreign scene, but to be honest as much as we were excited about potential foreign players in the past (there were people like Elky, Nony, Ret), it's not realistic to think that they're going to last that long.
Since you have finally made some statements that aren't laden with insults I'm happy to civilly discuss this topic.
I still don't agree with your statement as a whole. My opinion is that top BW players will become top SC2 players, by that I mean on a similar level to current top players which shift around every couple of months or so depending on who has figured out certain matchups at the time and who's style has been figured out. The rest of BW pros I expect some to end up at a similar level to they are now, possibly a bit higher or lower than before depending on how well they can apply their BW skills and adjust to the differences of a new game and others to fall out completely for other external reasons (not enjoying the game etc). This is not to say that I agree that they will stomp out and replace the current SC2 pros, but that they will slot into the current standings alongside the current SC2 Koreans.
Keep in mind I do appreciate that BW is harder than SC2, but SC2 is not BW. Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
You can call me ignorant about BW all you like, but you are also ignorant about SC2 and neither of us can say for sure how things will actually play out, so only time will tell.
As for the comments about the foreign scene, the beauty of the current foreign scene is that since the tournaments are held overseas you only get a certain percentage of Korean's depending on the tournament. It's generally a mixture of the number of Koreans the tournament decides to invite + Korean's whose teams can afford to send them (assuming an open bracket) + Korean's on foreigner teams that are attending. So the only real difference I see when BW teams switch over is that since those teams generally have a lot of money (if I understand correctly) then they will be able to afford to send more players, meaning that only tournaments with open brackets will really be affected, as the number of invites will generally be the same. This does mean that it will be even harder for foreigners to break into the Korean tournaments, but GSL invites a few every now and again so there will always be a couple of foreigners in the Korean scene that fans can root for.
The foreign scene has pretty much been designed around the fact that their is a skill gap between foreigners and Korean's, so while I agree that BW pros switching over will increase the skill gap (not that you actually said that but I believe it was implied), I think the foreign scene will continue to survive after the switch and maintain competitiveness. If we want the scene to continue to grow it pretty much has to survive because many new fans (myself not included) are only interested in watching foreigners and foreigner hope against Korean's is definitely one of the most popular stories that generate the most hype and bring in the largest crowds.
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Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT.
Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP.
If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
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On April 29 2012 19:53 kamikami wrote:
Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT.
Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP.
If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
huh? So people are choosing race based on what a pro is playing instead of finding the race that suits them the best?
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On April 29 2012 20:03 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 19:53 kamikami wrote:
Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT.
Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP.
If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
huh? So people are choosing race based on what a pro is playing instead of finding the race that suits them the best?
Some, yes
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Hm I guess it´s going to be pretty boring because almost every Korean plays Terran. Bisu wouldn´t be the best Terra I presume. Hope he sticks to Protoss.
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On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote:
Noooo Bisu you must
construct additional pylons
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On April 30 2012 03:11 theleo_ua wrote:construct additional pylons
not enough minerals
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He played Protoss at blizzcon (the HOTS demo) so maybe that will entice him into sticking with his race. Protoss needs more proper hopes.
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Myrddraal
Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out.
Like having superior mechanics will always ensure a win for you huh ? Seriously I have played TvP against protoss player who have more higher apm than me and macro and yet they still lose to me although I have only 8 factories in the late game while he has 30 gates producing goons and zealot from gateway all the time . I think this is some sort of a ignorant opinion most sc2 fans have they think that bw is all about having superior mechanics and not using strategy to win the game .
For me the immobility of the terran mech in the late game always plays well in to my strength since I get very fast +1 ugprades in the beginning and with that I am always on par with my protoss enemy even though my macro isn't good and keeping my army and siege tank line always in good position and not clump always let me wins the game .
Protoss may have the ability to macro their unit's as fast as they can although as long as I can get a few more expansion running and keep my units in tactical formation and if I come out always on top of all the engagement I would likely win if I don't screw up by being greedy and try to push a 5k mineral stack protoss base macroing 30 gates with pure zealots ..
I will probably always win with just good engagement and strategy and that's to me isn't about how you are able to macro and 1a2a3a4a into victory but how you manage your troops and keep your bases in check from recalls and flanks from either side. God damn terran war machine have to love it sad that the mech in Sc2 is really that bad in the game, players can no longer do pure mech because the unit is pretty much naked without units like medivac and marauders plus marine to accompany siege tanks.
Also you do realized your perspective on the view of bw players only knowing mechanics is their best weapon against sc2 strategic players ? Fantasy Revolution(Mech vs Zerg) and Bisu revolution (FFE vs Zerg ) are all strategic in terms of them being able to counter their opponent with a different build that isn't standard at that time and it caught most of their opponent off guard because they weren't train to deal with this kind of situation i.e Bisu mopping floor with savior with his bisu build and since Fantasy sucks really bad in MnM with his fantasy build he was able to utilized his vulture really well so he can survive in to the mid game with valks to counter muta's .
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
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Multitaskers should play Terran - Protoss units in small groups are inferior to any opposition.
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On April 29 2012 13:56 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 01:17 Zergneedsfood wrote:On April 26 2012 23:16 MDMA_ wrote:On April 26 2012 23:09 ppdealer wrote:On April 26 2012 22:52 MDMA_ wrote:lol @ all the "whoever is good @ sc2, was somewhat, somewhere good @ bw or on a bw pro team. If there are top players that didnt play BW they are outliers" ROFL. how about polt + all the wc3 players doing well? On April 26 2012 20:16 Zergneedsfood wrote:
Does not translate straight into SC2: Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player. Even if you point at one example where it doesn't apply, in statistics we call that an outlier.
All I'm saying is you're ignorant.
aren't you being ignorant yourself by calling every top level sc2 player who hasnt played bw as "outliers". Basically just a sneaky way of discrediting the game, saying its shit and BW players will stop cuz BW takes skill? thats the message conveyed no? You need to get your eyes cleaned. There's a difference between "all good BW pros are doing well in SC2" and "all pros doing well in SC2 were also good at BW." It's like the first thing you learn in logic. YOU need to get your eyes cleared. " Every SC2 player who was better in BW is a top player". Stephano was not a better BW player, nor were any of the wc3 players. Meh. Stephano's not that good, and the vast majority of good SC2 players supports the BW claim. This has nothing to do with wc3 or whatever. It's just showing the easy transition from one game to the other. I'm fine with wc3 players doing well in SC2. It's natural that there are people who are just naturally good at RTS games.........like Flash. Maybe I have an underlying message, but that doesn't really matter. At this point, people are just debating the same position. People are saying BW players are going to rape. And then other people are saying that BW players are going to rape later. At this point, I think the one thing that the BW/SC2 community can mutually agree on is that BW players are going to stomp out the current crop in some unknown time span. There are of course people who still believe in a blossoming foreign scene, but to be honest as much as we were excited about potential foreign players in the past (there were people like Elky, Nony, Ret), it's not realistic to think that they're going to last that long. Since you have finally made some statements that aren't laden with insults I'm happy to civilly discuss this topic. I still don't agree with your statement as a whole. My opinion is that top BW players will become top SC2 players, by that I mean on a similar level to current top players which shift around every couple of months or so depending on who has figured out certain matchups at the time and who's style has been figured out. The rest of BW pros I expect some to end up at a similar level to they are now, possibly a bit higher or lower than before depending on how well they can apply their BW skills and adjust to the differences of a new game and others to fall out completely for other external reasons (not enjoying the game etc). This is not to say that I agree that they will stomp out and replace the current SC2 pros, but that they will slot into the current standings alongside the current SC2 Koreans. Keep in mind I do appreciate that BW is harder than SC2, but SC2 is not BW. Since it is easier to play mechanically, players will not always win just because they have superior mechanics, so it comes down to strategy and understanding the game, and it's my opinion that 2 years of practicing SC2 gives the current pros a strategic edge while BW pros will have an edge in mechanics (after having played enough SC2 to correctly apply their mechanical skill) until months down the track when both will approximately even out. You can call me ignorant about BW all you like, but you are also ignorant about SC2 and neither of us can say for sure how things will actually play out, so only time will tell. As for the comments about the foreign scene, the beauty of the current foreign scene is that since the tournaments are held overseas you only get a certain percentage of Korean's depending on the tournament. It's generally a mixture of the number of Koreans the tournament decides to invite + Korean's whose teams can afford to send them (assuming an open bracket) + Korean's on foreigner teams that are attending. So the only real difference I see when BW teams switch over is that since those teams generally have a lot of money (if I understand correctly) then they will be able to afford to send more players, meaning that only tournaments with open brackets will really be affected, as the number of invites will generally be the same. This does mean that it will be even harder for foreigners to break into the Korean tournaments, but GSL invites a few every now and again so there will always be a couple of foreigners in the Korean scene that fans can root for. The foreign scene has pretty much been designed around the fact that their is a skill gap between foreigners and Korean's, so while I agree that BW pros switching over will increase the skill gap (not that you actually said that but I believe it was implied), I think the foreign scene will continue to survive after the switch and maintain competitiveness. If we want the scene to continue to grow it pretty much has to survive because many new fans (myself not included) are only interested in watching foreigners and foreigner hope against Korean's is definitely one of the most popular stories that generate the most hype and bring in the largest crowds.
Nah, Starcraft (1+2) has three main components to it: Economy, Tech, and Army. As long as you understand these three main things perfectly, you pretty much understand 70% of the game. BW pros have had a long time exposure to Starcraft and they understand why certain strategies work and certain strategies do not work. The same line of thinking applies to both games of Starcraft.
Some BW players have made builds that have completely changed the course of how an entire matchup is played. It's not like they are going to load up some MLG replay, look at it, and go "WTF". They understand things like worker count, upgrades (it's friggin flash we're talking about), map control, harassment, positioning, multitasking, etc.. to a level much higher than you could imagine. I'm not saying that means "OMG INSTANT BONJWA" but I would genuinely be surprised if they didn't fill 50% of Code S.
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Holy shit it's like it's 2010 in this thread.
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On April 30 2012 15:18 Sawamura wrote:
...
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
I think that perception comes from some BW fanatics bashing SC2 with the argument that the UI is so "easy" and requiring less mechanics. That gives the impression that the thing making BW supposedly superior to SC2 is its mechanics.
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On April 30 2012 03:16 Darksoldierr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 03:11 theleo_ua wrote:On April 21 2012 10:25 GGQ wrote:
Noooo Bisu you must construct additional pylons not enough minerals
needs MULEs
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On April 30 2012 15:18 Sawamura wrote:
Also you do realized your perspective on the view of bw players only knowing mechanics is their best weapon against sc2 strategic players ? Fantasy Revolution(Mech vs Zerg) and Bisu revolution (FFE vs Zerg ) are all strategic in terms of them being able to counter their opponent with a different build that isn't standard at that time and it caught most of their opponent off guard because they weren't train to deal with this kind of situation i.e Bisu mopping floor with savior with his bisu build and since Fantasy sucks really bad in MnM with his fantasy build he was able to utilized his vulture really well so he can survive in to the mid game with valks to counter muta's .
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
There is something to be said that the base mechanics needed for BW is higher than any other RTS game, meaning the BW teams would reject potentially great SC2 players that lack the mechanics needed for BW. For example, Zero was scouted simply because the coach saw his 300+ APM. PJ once mentioned how in the SKT1 house, you have to reach certain APMs to stay around(something like ~250ish for protoss, can't remember). So yes, there are certainly high level BW players that may not really be any better than current top SC2 guys simply because their mechanical advantage is gone.
So I think a player like Modesty, for example, would not transition well since his awesome ZvZ micro is not worth nearly as much in SC2. While a player like Stork may actually benefit from the transition, since he no longer has to worry about his diminishing APM and instead be able to fully show his great game management.
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On April 30 2012 19:46 baubo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2012 15:18 Sawamura wrote:
Also you do realized your perspective on the view of bw players only knowing mechanics is their best weapon against sc2 strategic players ? Fantasy Revolution(Mech vs Zerg) and Bisu revolution (FFE vs Zerg ) are all strategic in terms of them being able to counter their opponent with a different build that isn't standard at that time and it caught most of their opponent off guard because they weren't train to deal with this kind of situation i.e Bisu mopping floor with savior with his bisu build and since Fantasy sucks really bad in MnM with his fantasy build he was able to utilized his vulture really well so he can survive in to the mid game with valks to counter muta's .
I am really sick and tired that sc2 fans are giving all this crap at us that bw (is only a button mashing game ) and I would like to play with you guys and prove you really wrong .
There is something to be said that the base mechanics needed for BW is higher than any other RTS game, meaning the BW teams would reject potentially great SC2 players that lack the mechanics needed for BW. For example, Zero was scouted simply because the coach saw his 300+ APM. PJ once mentioned how in the SKT1 house, you have to reach certain APMs to stay around(something like ~250ish for protoss, can't remember). So yes, there are certainly high level BW players that may not really be any better than current top SC2 guys simply because their mechanical advantage is gone. So I think a player like Modesty, for example, would not transition well since his awesome ZvZ micro is not worth nearly as much in SC2. While a player like Stork may actually benefit from the transition, since he no longer has to worry about his diminishing APM and instead be able to fully show his great game management.
I think it's too early to speculate how well our bw pro gamers will transition to sc2 basically we are just looking at something that will or will not transition their skill to sc2 but I won't base it on their mechanics and It will depend on how well this players will adapt to the new environment they are getting in to . New timings,New build order, New strategies, Although starcraft 2 does look like starcraft but with the addition of Larvae Inject,Mule,Chrono boost the game is definitely not a broodwar clone but a mix of other strategy games concept in it . Marauders spell which is the concussion spell does look a little like a warcraft 3 spell from a hero .
Macro mechanics I believe were inserted due to the player having an easy time macroing through mbs without the need to go back to the base and macro each individual buildings now they have to get used to microing units more than they used to although having a good solid mechanic and work ethic would probably speed up the learning process much more faster than we can think of.
This is something broodwar players have to take in to account and that being said players basically are on the same level now if bw players were to transition to sc2 right now . I have good faith that given time our bw players will be the best out there in sc2 .
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On April 29 2012 20:03 papaz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 19:53 kamikami wrote:
Hey everyone, I finally find the solution for all the Bisu fans who are undecided about race right now (since it's not confirmed that Bisu will play Terran).
Right now, just stick with Protoss, but only learn and play PvT.
Doing so will improve your P, and at the same time improve your understanding of the MU, which indirectly improve your T.
So, if Bisu switch, you can follow him, and already have a good level in TvP.
If he doesn't switch, you have already learned PvT, time to learn the other 2 MUs.
It's a win-win situation !!! I'm so happy finding this solution, hope that helps !!!!
huh? So people are choosing race based on what a pro is playing instead of finding the race that suits them the best?
you mean 'bee-suits them the best?' I assume.
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EPT
