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Blaming a 13 year old girl for her own suicide on the basis that she's a "slut" is NOT acceptable. |
On March 29 2012 19:43 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 19:41 Recognizable wrote:On March 29 2012 19:39 Oshuy wrote:
I would guess this kind of list are common everywhere, like teenage boys giving marks to girls passing by. Articles I read focus not on the list itself, but on the fact that they are shared/published on social networks.
The main blow to the girls on the list is probably not that a few dumb boys call them sluts, it is that they broadcast it to the world.
Suicide is the most common death cause for teenagers and I guess there are always multiple reasons for a suicide (being a teen is probably the main one), but discussion is rather : how identify / protect against social network harassment without impacting freedom of speach ? Suicide is the most common death cause for teenagers? Could you give a source, because frankly, it's most likely not true. According to the CDC, it wasn't true in the USA in 2009, and I'd suspect that it's not true world-wide or in Holland, either. http://www.cdc.gov/Injury/wisqars/pdf/10LCD-Age-Grp-US-2009-a.pdf
Depends on the categories you define. If you take the same categories as the US study, nederlands is accidents first, then suicide, then homicide (having more homicides than suicides is US specific).
Some studies make subcategories for accidents : traffic accident / domestic accidents / work accidents / ... In that case it becomes traffic accidents first, with suicides a close second.
(I remembered suicide first, but it was for the 25/45 group age)
Didn't find the dutch version, french version for 2009
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Poor girl it is a terrible shame that a child had to feel the need to resort to that kind of action.
I just don’t understand how there was no one to help, her parents or a friend anyone it only takes one person, I think they should have some kind of compulsory program for all parents to attend for a day sometime in the first ten years of their Childs life so they can be taught how to identify warning signs for suicide, schools should also have a day every year to learn about it as well starting from sixth grade or something so they have like a full week of the suicide program once they graduate.
Just teach them a basic principle to watch for like
Situational (what has happened to a person)
1: loss of loved one or friend
2: loss of prestige (which is what they are trying to say caused this girl to go that far)
3: loss of resources (money/credit/imaginary money/items etc)
Behavioural (how they act each day)
1: Talking negatively more often then not
2: Not participating in regular activities.
3: Ending close relationships.
Emotional
1: Feelings of hopelessness.
2: Withdrawal/isolation.
3: overwhelming sadness
I feel sad that some people have no one to help I have trouble understanding that in a school group that there is not one person that wouldn’t think they need some help, it is really hard to blame parents since unless you know the signs as a parent the general feeling is “their my kid they wouldn’t do that they are alright” it can be tough to see it for what it truly is.
I always have a feeling of “I wish I knew them I want to help” every time I see something like this 
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On March 29 2012 20:07 Instigata wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 19:21 -Archangel- wrote:
If a 13 year old really did deserve the spot on that list, her parents should have committed suicide instead. . Suprised the liberals haven't flamed you yet. Why would parents be responsible if their kid is a slut? You can't really control something like that and most girls have sex around 12-13 now days.
Lol, I am a liberal. And a father. My girl is not near 13 yet but if she turns out like this I will consider it first of all my fault then then the fault of society or others.
Parents job is to teach their kids how to survive this stuff. All parents had similar experiences (either been popular or unpopular) and they MUST be able to teach their kids how to survive this easier.
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On March 29 2012 20:57 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:07 Instigata wrote:On March 29 2012 19:21 -Archangel- wrote:
If a 13 year old really did deserve the spot on that list, her parents should have committed suicide instead. . Suprised the liberals haven't flamed you yet. Why would parents be responsible if their kid is a slut? You can't really control something like that and most girls have sex around 12-13 now days. Lol, I am a liberal. And a father. My girl is not near 13 yet but if she turns out like this I will consider it first of all my fault then then the fault of society or others. Parents job is to teach their kids how to survive this stuff. All parents had similar experiences (either been popular or unpopular) and they MUST be able to teach their kids how to survive this easier.
Well said. Definitely agree.
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poor thing.. Social pressures can be so hard to deal with at that age, especially with our world getting smaller thanks to social media.
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On March 29 2012 20:52 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:49 snailz wrote:On March 29 2012 20:38 aTnClouD wrote:
The real problem here is that sex for women is still seen as something to give very carefully to the right person. We don't need this anymore since birth control is not an issue. It's a primitive, outdated defense for something technology solved already and the result is conflit in mind when teenagers doing nothing wrong when they have sex and having done something terribly wrong whenever they are pointed as sluts by society. There's no one to blame here other than the remains of a primitive social shield to prevent women from having children with random people. i underlined a problem women having sex without social stigma =/= teenage girls having sex without social stigma we're talking 13 year old girl here. for women, yes, it is truly "remains of primitive social shield", but for little girls it's a nother thing completely. You can't draw a line for everybody to decide when they become adult and responsible. A 13 years old girl can be way more wise and informed than a 80 years old woman. The young generations right now have so much informations about sex and are so open about it that I don't really see the issue in a 13 years old girl having sex.
i would have to say that those 13 year old girls you speak of are an exception that proves the rule...
when i was 13, girls wearing metallica shirts looking for their identity through music genres with "bff" signs all over their bags and avril-lavigne-cute-looks was a big thing, almost no one was anywhere near adulthood or any form of responsibility, let alone trying to look like and act a real, mature woman.
when i grew up i noticed that there actually are 13 year old girls that could sell 18-year old apperance. but talking to them you can see the difference between them and two years older counterparts, that outfit the same looks.
so i would again have to say that while they may be girls like you describe, they are so rare we as a society can't really say "there is no issue in a 13 years old girl having sex"
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I fail to see how a 13 year old committing suicide in response to bullying means the problem is societal standards. If sex among 13 years was fine then you just get different types of bullying - people who didn't have sex, won't do certain things, are considered bad in bed, etc. Overall the whole story is a tragedy but it's a girl committing suicide, tragic but not groundbreaking. If anything it's just some form of bullying people aren't used to hearing about. But it could be just me.
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On March 29 2012 19:28 DwD wrote:I think these girls got big problems(mentally) and the reason for suicide isn't being on a bang list. Maybe it's the tipping point of stuff they are overwhelmed by but it certainly isn't the sole factor. Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 19:28 Type|NarutO wrote:
Suicide is a selfish act and never solution of problems, but rather source for problems and suffering of other people. It was her choice and I respect that, but I don't feel sorry nor do I think are the boys that put her on such a list guilty. You are so wrong on so many things in your post I don't even know where to begin. Suicide is a selfish act? If a person doesn't want to live anymore for whatever reason(unhappy, deadly disease, old age, whatever) they must be kept alive against their will so their family can be happy? You don't think the happiness of the specific person is more important than the feelings of the family members? It's their life and their right to do whatever they want with it.
Both posts are ridiculous...She's fucking 13. No 13 year old in the world actually knows if they would rather die.
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So funny how allegedly grown-ups judge the "decisions" of a 13 year old. Yuy guys are barely over 20 and already have lost the slightest idea of how it is to be a kid.
It's clear that most of these comments come from guys who grew up as socially rejected nerds who didn't have to worry about being "cool" as a teenager because it was hopeless anyway.
Sickens me to the bone.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I dont know why, but the generations coming from behind dont know what planet they live on.All people say the access to information makes us good, more inteligent, but it seems its the other way for so many people.Comiting suicide for such a stupid reason is just plain retarded imo.Guess its just natural selection.
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On March 29 2012 20:38 aTnClouD wrote:
The real problem here is that sex for women is still seen as something to give very carefully to the right person. We don't need this anymore since birth control is not an issue. It's a primitive, outdated defense for something technology solved already and the result is teenagers being torn apart by the rational feeling they are doing nothing wrong when they do it and having done something terribly wrong whenever they are pointed as sluts by society. There's no one to blame here other than the remains of a primitive social shield to prevent women from having children with random people.
I just gained a whole new level of respect for you.
On March 29 2012 20:57 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:07 Instigata wrote:On March 29 2012 19:21 -Archangel- wrote:
If a 13 year old really did deserve the spot on that list, her parents should have committed suicide instead. . Suprised the liberals haven't flamed you yet. Why would parents be responsible if their kid is a slut? You can't really control something like that and most girls have sex around 12-13 now days. Lol, I am a liberal. And a father. My girl is not near 13 yet but if she turns out like this I will consider it first of all my fault then then the fault of society or others. Parents job is to teach their kids how to survive this stuff. All parents had similar experiences (either been popular or unpopular) and they MUST be able to teach their kids how to survive this easier.
Would you say the same about your boy?
Oh wait, there's no such thing as "slut list" for boys.
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It's mainly fault of the guys who make these lists, but it's also partially her fault for not expecting the consequences, although it's hard to estimate how mature a girl is at that age. It's an age with a very broad possible spectrum of maturity.
That's for the fault regarding the problem, the fault for the consequences goes to parents, teachers and friends. Messages from suicidal people are usually very discomforting for the people receiving them, as they resemble final goodbyes.
Any good parent would notice that and immediately start a serious conversation.
It's also weird that she fully committed to that suicide at the first attempt. I don't know the details, but i would guess that she jumped from a roof. Hanging oneself is the most frequent method around this part of Europe, but i don't believe that she would have been capable of that.
RIP however.
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I'm an 18 years old man from Denmark.
My guess is that the list ruins their "social image" and hence they feel that their life is ruined. I personally can NOT understand this meaningless social ego. So what, you are more sexually developed than the rest of the girls your age, what is the problem? Sex is the most natural thing humans do! Hell, if i was her class mate(and at her age ofc) and i knew that she was open about sex, then i would be much more cormfortable about asking her out, than if i didn't know if she was even interrested in sex yet :O
People need to look beyond useless things as "social images", those things hold no meaning at all, because they can change overnight.
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Just wanted to give some more translation on the latest tweets. Looks to me like a case of multiple things going wrong in her life because of this list, even though she sounds like a instable, emotion-based person in the first place. I hope this helps with everyone 'judging' her. Just going to pick the ones which stood out for me, without going back too far. Will be in chronological order, starting with the oldest:
"People are very stupid"
"Stupid school, I'm quitting it (it meaning school)"
Response to a friend saying: "Hey, what's wrong?": "Nothing xx"
"I think you're scary" (you is not specified, but most likely the maker of this list or someone who spread it)
"I want to go to a different school"
"I want to tell mom, but on the other hand I don't because I don't want to make her sad" (stood out a lot for me, for obvious reasons)
"Noone will understand my feelings"
"They have to behave now!"
"It would've been better if I wasn't there"
"I thought it was all solved, but now there's a lot of different shit"
"I want to prove myself and try but..."
"No words" -> Putting on my shoes" -> "Going outside now" -> "So close now" -> "I loved you all but it's too late now, xx"
It was heartbreaking to read, but I think will provide a better standpoint for all of you. Suicide in my eyes seems like an act of desperation, caused by the fact that this list, or something else involving people on her school bullying her, made her think her whole life was ruined.
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How is it even possible to be a slut at 13? I didn't even know the average girl is having sex at that age.
User was warned for this post
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On March 29 2012 20:52 aTnClouD wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:49 snailz wrote:On March 29 2012 20:38 aTnClouD wrote:
The real problem here is that sex for women is still seen as something to give very carefully to the right person. We don't need this anymore since birth control is not an issue. It's a primitive, outdated defense for something technology solved already and the result is conflit in mind when teenagers doing nothing wrong when they have sex and having done something terribly wrong whenever they are pointed as sluts by society. There's no one to blame here other than the remains of a primitive social shield to prevent women from having children with random people. i underlined a problem women having sex without social stigma =/= teenage girls having sex without social stigma we're talking 13 year old girl here. for women, yes, it is truly "remains of primitive social shield", but for little girls it's a nother thing completely. You can't draw a line for everybody to decide when they become adult and responsible. A 13 years old girl can be way more wise and informed than a 80 years old woman. The young generations right now have so much informations about sex and are so open about it that I don't really see the issue in a 13 years old girl having sex.
Firstly, there is nothing to suggest in the OP that the 13 year old actually was sexually active, or even that the ‘banga’ list was definitely the motivation behind her suicide.
Regardless of this, that a 13 year girl would be deeply troubled by anyone insinuating she was a 'slut' seems obvious; precisely as of CLouD suggests, since women are subject to a certain kind of treatment due to a negative perception of their sexuality, a child subject a similar negative perception of their (real or imagined) sexuality should too also experience a sense of threat or shame. The difference being of course that a child lacks the emotional maturity and social knowledge to deal with this, at least, safely (which is not to suggest that this is legitimate when directed at an emotionally mature and well-reasoned woman).
With all due respect CLouD, I do disagree however with your Social-Darwinist model but do agree that much of the root of this attitude towards female sexuality is due to paternal anxiety. And yes it is backward.
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On March 29 2012 21:05 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:38 aTnClouD wrote:
The real problem here is that sex for women is still seen as something to give very carefully to the right person. We don't need this anymore since birth control is not an issue. It's a primitive, outdated defense for something technology solved already and the result is teenagers being torn apart by the rational feeling they are doing nothing wrong when they do it and having done something terribly wrong whenever they are pointed as sluts by society. There's no one to blame here other than the remains of a primitive social shield to prevent women from having children with random people. I just gained a whole new level of respect for you. Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:57 -Archangel- wrote:On March 29 2012 20:07 Instigata wrote:On March 29 2012 19:21 -Archangel- wrote:
If a 13 year old really did deserve the spot on that list, her parents should have committed suicide instead. . Suprised the liberals haven't flamed you yet. Why would parents be responsible if their kid is a slut? You can't really control something like that and most girls have sex around 12-13 now days. Lol, I am a liberal. And a father. My girl is not near 13 yet but if she turns out like this I will consider it first of all my fault then then the fault of society or others. Parents job is to teach their kids how to survive this stuff. All parents had similar experiences (either been popular or unpopular) and they MUST be able to teach their kids how to survive this easier. Would you say the same about your boy? Oh wait, there's no such thing as "slut list" for boys.
I would say the same about the boy.
People have to learn at some point that having sex with everyone in sight isn't a good thing.
If one doesn't learn it at young age, why could he/she learn it later, when up until that time it was suggested as a good thing.
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On March 29 2012 20:27 Rannasha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2012 20:25 Antyee wrote:On March 29 2012 20:20 Geen wrote:
The banga-list part of this story is very likely to be a hoax. (Not the suicide) Also banga is derived from the marrocan language, not really dutch. Or simply bang-a-<random word describing a female>. At least this seems the msot logical to me. A lot of Dutch slang is strongly influenced by immingrant cultures. Like Geen posted, banga comes from Maroccan, which is a large immigrant culture in the Netherlands.
[off topic]
Current Dutch youth culture has integrated some words into it's vocabulary from immigrant culture. Reason being that 3rd or 4th generation immigrant kids/young adults are currently successful in the Dutch entertainment (RAP/R&B) scene. Their lyrics introduce new words upon an impressionable young generation of fans. However, as someone from a now older generation, I can tell you this "slang" begins and end with the generation it's created in. The "slang" of my generation was heavily influenced by American and UK culture. And the only people who still use these "slang" words are from my generation.
Every generation has their counter-culture, but it fades out with a new generation of young impressionable minds  [/off topic]
The banga-list started popping up a few weeks ago in dutch main-stream media. And in some great Fox-like news reporting is now suddenly responsible for suicides. I'm saddened by the news that this girl killed her-self, but I do not think this list alone is responsible. I can't believe that there are people with such a low amount of common-sense that they will blame a list for a suicide.
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totally understandable.
poor girl maybe had sex with a nice guy from football club and thought it was her first love and she lost her virginity to most awesome guy ever and soon after he declares her a slut.
imagine youre in a town with 3k citizens, maybe 100-150 your age +-3 years, and then such a list comes out.
what can a 13 yo do?
ignore -> ppl just make more fun of you, nerdy ugly 16 yo guys think they can have sex with you and will come on to you each and everytime you go out for the next 3 months. best option imho.
move away -> no option for 13 yo
admit and be proud -> if youre not on top of the list this change of lifystyle probably wont fit to a 13 yo girl.
and this thoughts doesnt even include talks to parents and possible effects on the local job market (if she was to look for apprenticeship soon)
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EPT
