A few months ago my brother was stopped by police and asked for his ID for riding his bike around the neighborhood. The cop said there were reports of suspicious behavior and that my brother looked suspicious. That's what happens if you're biking while white in America.
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet.
On March 23 2012 09:49 BlackJack wrote: A few months ago my brother was stopped by police and asked for his ID for riding his bike around the neighborhood. The cop said there were reports of suspicious behavior and that my brother looked suspicious. That's what happens if you're biking while white in America.
Its no longer ok to be white in america....and its going to be shown in this case. The judicial system is flawed. If the laws allowed Zimmerman to defend himself then...so be it!!! Im sure the other guy was trash talking Zimmerman but...we'll never know
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet.
Common sense would also say you don't scream for help while you have the other person on their back and are punching them in the head.
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You can't take the eye witness account you like and choose that one as fact. There was more than one eye witness, although it seems they caught the fight at different times. And I would assume that some are conflicting, as that is the nature of the beast.
Just saying, I wouldn't keep quoting that as if it is gospel.
But im not cherry picking.
yeah you are, you are being insanely biased about this entire situation. you have no clue on who really acted in self defense. martin could have been acting in self defense just as well as zimmerman.
the real issue here is that ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE NOT FOLLOWED HIM. thats how issues start, its common sense -_-. he has caused so much problems by trying to be a vigilante which is just stupidity. what if he really was chasing a gangster that was also wielding a gun? a shoot out would have insued and Zimmerman probably dead and the gangster claiming self defense.
do you now see how flawed this is and how much problems a vigilante can cause?
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet.
Of course you scream for help if you have a gun. Why would you just start blasting away at people before making every effort to subdue them physically? Don't you think cops radio for backup when they have someone being beligerent, or do they not need backup because they have a gun?
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There is a witness who saw the altercation when the screaming was going on. He identified Zimmerman as being the one shouting for help, and Trayvon as the one who was pinning him to the ground and beating him until being shot.
Man shot and killed in neighborhood altercation "The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, 'Help! Help!' and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John.
John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot.
"And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point."
It is VERY unlikely that a man carrying a concealed weapon started a hand to hand confrontation. Any armed man wants to keep their distance so their weapon isn't taken from them and used against them. If there was a fight between the two, I think it's much more likely that the young, football player, on suspension from school, initiated it. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, beating him bloody, Zimmerman could do little at that point to prevent Martin from getting his gun and shooting him, bringing us into the SYG arena, from Zimmerman's perspective.
On March 23 2012 09:51 Fyrewolf wrote: You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet.
If you fire a warning shot or aim to do anything other than end the threat in the best way you are MORE likely to end up in jail than if you aim for the center of mass.
Why? the prosecution will argue "Well, you had enough time and ability to shoot him in the leg. If you were that clear-headed and had that much time, then your life wasn't really in danger, was it?"
On March 23 2012 09:31 liberal wrote: So those who think Zimmerman wasn't the one screaming, I'm trying to understand how you see this happening... Zimmerman was doing what to make the kid scream? Pointing a gun at him for 30 seconds until he screamed and got witnesses attention and then shot him on the ground unprovoked and unarmed? Was he pummeling the kid while he screamed for help and then after beating him up decides to shoot him dead? I'm just having such a hard time picturing any scenario where this makes sense.
Or how about they got in a fight where the fat old guy got his ass kicked by a young football player and while he was screaming for help he was scared for his life and he shot the guy.
zimmerman was bloodied and injured when the police found him. The story fits completly and the story that martin's parents tell keeps changeing. Even if the law wasn't clearly in his favor for this the court case would have been hard to prove him guilty of anything more then manslaughter.
Even if it played out exactly like that (which is very possible). It would be hard to not prove him guilty of manslaughter. This was so irresponsible of him. And then he took someones life because he was scared, which is fucking stupid because he probably scared the shit out of Tray. People need to get it through their heads that this isn't some fictional story. Two innocent people were involved and one of them became a victim. This is the exact reason why you leave these things to uniformed officers (HE IS NOT A POLICE OFFICER, he is a citizen and he had no right to take Trays life as his responsibility).
I honestly feel bad for Zimmerman and his family (mostly his family). He probably was scared if he was mounted and the kid was elbowing/punching him in the face. But he put himself in that situation, then someone else had to pay for it. He wasn't looking out for the community, he was stroking his own ego. If he was really just looking out for the community he would have called the police, watched him from a distance and then went along his merry way. He never saw Tray do anything (or at least he admitted he didn't see him commit any crimes) wrong. He should have left him alone.
On March 23 2012 09:54 Ballistixz wrote: ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE NOT FOLLOWED HIM.
Even if everyone agrees with this statement, what is the point of hammering it home again? Just because he should not have followed doesn't make it illegal that he did. Not using your common sense is often times, not a crime.
- regardless of any fight, the kid is dead and zimmer shot him
- the kid didn't have a weapon
The moment you call the cops and they say to stay away, you cannot grab a gun, follow and then shoot a person. Grabbing the gun and following them was clearly intent to harm the kid. There is no way to justify grabbing a gun and following someone when the police said to not do anything and then shooting them. I don't care if they fought, this was after Zimmer grabbed his gun and decided to follow the kid after the police told him not to.
On March 23 2012 09:54 Ballistixz wrote: ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE NOT FOLLOWED HIM.
Even if everyone agrees with this statement, what is the point of hammering it home again? Just because he should not have followed doesn't make it illegal that he did. Not using your common sense is often times, not a crime.
No, but grabbing a gun, following when told not to clearly show mens rea under the law, Zimmer decided at that moment to be a vigilante.
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet.
Of course you scream for help if you have a gun. Why would you just start blasting away at people before making every effort to subdue them physically? Don't you think cops radio for backup when they have someone being beligerent, or do they not need backup because they have a gun?
the guy wasnt a cop.... he had no right to do anything except call the police. he had no right to chase after the guy and try to stop him. martin could have EASILY thought the guy was trying to rob him and acted in defense.
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You can't take the eye witness account you like and choose that one as fact. There was more than one eye witness, although it seems they caught the fight at different times. And I would assume that some are conflicting, as that is the nature of the beast.
Just saying, I wouldn't keep quoting that as if it is gospel.
But im not cherry picking.
yeah you are, you are being insanely biased about this entire situation. you have no clue on who really acted in self defense. martin could have been acting in self defense just as well as zimmerman.
the real issue here is that ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE NOT FOLLOWED HIM. thats how issues start, its common sense -_-. he has caused so much problems by trying to be a vigilante which is just stupidity. what if he really was chasing a gangster that was also wielding a gun? a shoot out would have insued and Zimmerman probably dead and the gangster claiming self defense.
do you now see how flawed this is and how much problems a vigilante can cause?
I cant be biased by quoting witness testimony. Following someone is not being a vigilante especially when you are part of a neighborhood watch. There is even testimony that his neighbors loved him. In fact a black lady would tell Zimmerman if she left town so he could keep an eye on her house.Zimmerman wasnt a vigilante by any means.
I know plenty of people who carry and they are nice people. Carrying a gun doesnt make a person bad.
Witness said that it was Zimmerman on the ground.
so what...? knowing someone with that carries a gun=/= not knowing someone that is carrying a gun. he could easily be out to rob you or something, you have no clue. why the hell just assume someone that is following you with a gun and that you DONT KNOW is a good guy?
you honestly sound like someone who can easily be robbed if you are that damn naive....
And you sound like someone who screams murder when they see a gun.
How would he know if he had a gun in the first place? People you pass in the street outside could be carrying and you wouldnt know.
As I said, carrying a gun doesnt make you a bad person.
someone following u in a car, continues to follow u for a good while, then gets out of his car and starts to run after you. good guy right?
ya, idk what to say to you really.
sure a gun doesnt make you a bad person, but you are completly ignoring the actual facts of what happened. the guy only had tea and skittles. why would u think he was "up to no good" or "is on drugs" in the first place? why would u feel the need to chase him down with a gun? WHY?
Read the thread before posting, most of those questions have been answered.
i know it has been answered, but i am asking YOU why you think that is an ok thing to do? what in your mind beleives that its ok even if you think he was a gangster or a suspicious person? vigilantism is not a good thing for very good reason. it puts yourself and everyone else involved in danger.
I have every right to ask what a person is doing in my neighborhood. Why would I question my neighbor, or a mother with a baby in a stroller about what they were doing in my neighborhood?
and your willing to follow someone for several blocks with a gun to do that because....?
But he didnt follow him for several blocks......
he still followed him and even ran after him.... if someone chases after me then i will be prepared to defense myself.
do you now know the problem zimmer man has caused? if he simply did not follow and let the police handle it then a innocent kid would be alive right now.
You and I must have different definitions of innocent.
Trayvon didn't do anything wrong until he decided to knock someone to the ground and pummel them in the head. At that point he stopped being innocent.
On March 23 2012 09:19 Saryph wrote: The police really screwed up here, if you look into the story, the police had the child's cellphone, and did not even attempt to contact the family. The family of the child went three days searching for their child before finding out he was dead, all the while the police were sitting there with a phone with 'dad' and 'mom' on the contact list.
i find this incredibly hard to believe. three days not knowing where their kid was or what happened? the kid went to visit a friend, left the house, he was talking to the girl on the phone when it went down supposedly, she told him to run away, the kid is shot, the police come to the neighborhood and everything gets cordoned off (sirens, yellow tape, the whole works). you dont think the girl or her family would figure out what happened that same night? you dont think they would tell the parents? come on people, use your brains.
• What happened to Martin's cellphone? Reports abound that Martin's parents were not informed of his murder until they contacted police to report him missing, despite having his cellphone is feeding further scepticism about the police's conduct. It led New York Times columnist Charles Blow to tweet on Monday urging his followers to make his Tweet trend "Where is Trayvon Martin's cellphone?"
Right there the article linked from the OP claims that the Martin family did not find out until they tried to report Treyvon missing. Admittedly almost all the articles on the issue have some sort of bias in them, but apparently there was enough of a buzz that a New York Times columnist posted on twitter about it.
well, explain to me how the girl (not sure if just a friend, or a girlfriend) could be on the phone while it was going down and tell the kid to run away, but not know that something happened to him that very night (even 10 minutes later when you hear the sirens)? i would think she would contact the family, or at the very least tell the cops who the parents were.
i dont believe everything i read. and this just smells like bullshit to me.
Reportedly the girls parents wanted her to stay out of it. And reportedly she was so distressed that she was hospitalized. She was contacted by the Martin family after they found out about the call at 7:12. The call went dead at 7:16. Police arrived at 7:17.
On March 23 2012 09:16 Saryph wrote: I like how when you're faced with the story of 'a guy in his late 20s follows an underage minor in his car, gets out and chases him down with a gun, and in the end it comes down to a confrontation where the man shoots the child' you have people taking the side of the man in his 20s with the gun, and criticizing the underage MINOR for defending himself.
If you were 17 and someone twice your size was chasing you with a gun, would you not consider him a massive threat to your life?
It seems as though the SYG law applies to the child and not Zimmerman. If he had killed Zimmerman instead I wonder if the police would have arrested him.
He probably did not even reveal the weapon until he used it or Tray found it on him. But its pretty irrelevent because it would be scary regardless of whether you could see if he was armed or not.
When I hear the 911 tape of his death, I hear the sound of sheer terror in the voice of the one screaming for help. I think it's because he saw a gun and knew he was about to be shot. Just my opinion though.
That was Zimmermans screams as said by witnesses.
The only people to say they identified the screams are Zimmerman claiming it was him, and Martin's Father claiming it was his son on the tapes. The witness reports don't really say one way or the other yet.
I just stated my opinion that after listening to the call, that it's more plausible to me that the screaming is Martin. Like I said, just an opinion.
There are links a few pages back that give witness accounts that say it was zimmerman on the ground.
You dont exactly scream for help when your beating someone.
You also don't scream for help if you have a gun. The witness reports have been kind of inconsistent, I've seen it be reported both ways so far with both of them on top from different sources. The details of the fight are still unknown, but I personally don't think there was justification for deadly force. If he wanted to use his gun, he could have done a warning shot in the air, or maybe not aim to kill, instead shooting the boy directly in the chest. But as I said, the details are unknown. There's a whole lot of speculation going on in the thread, but we really can't tell what happened yet.
Of course you scream for help if you have a gun. Why would you just start blasting away at people before making every effort to subdue them physically? Don't you think cops radio for backup when they have someone being beligerent, or do they not need backup because they have a gun?
the guy wasnt a cop.... he had no right to do anything except call the police. he had no right to chase after the guy and try to stop him. martin could have EASILY thought the guy was trying to rob him and acted in defense.
Okay, I was making a very specific point that had little to do with what you're saying.
On March 23 2012 09:58 ZeromuS wrote: Look guys it boils down for me like this
- Zimmer sees some kid he feels is suspicious,
- he calls cops and they say to stay away
- he grabs his gun and follows the kid
- regardless of any fight, the kid is dead and zimmer shot him
- the kid didn't have a weapon
The moment you call the cops and they say to stay away, you cannot grab a gun, follow and then shoot a person. Grabbing the gun and following them was clearly intent to harm the kid. There is no way to justify grabbing a gun and following someone when the police said to not do anything and then shooting them. I don't care if they fought, this was after Zimmer grabbed his gun and decided to follow the kid after the police told him not to.
On March 23 2012 09:54 Ballistixz wrote: ZIMMERMAN SHOULD HAVE NOT FOLLOWED HIM.
Even if everyone agrees with this statement, what is the point of hammering it home again? Just because he should not have followed doesn't make it illegal that he did. Not using your common sense is often times, not a crime.
No, but grabbing a gun, following when told not to clearly show mens rea under the law, Zimmer decided at that moment to be a vigilante.
No, keeping a gun on you, especially, when you believe that the other person is armed, actually makes complete sense.
EPT
