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ChessNetwork
United States10 Posts
I'm interested in receiving feedback from those who are SC2 AND chess players. I'm very new to SC2. So much so that I've never played a single game. I have however listened in on SC2 Twitch streams by Day9 and Artosis. In your opinion, is the SC2 or chess Grandmaster level more difficult to obtain? Your insight is appreciated. -Jerry | ||
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
Edit: Seeing as you're new: There are 200 gm on each server. It is really hard to get on Korea, but (from what I understand) a lot easier to get on SEA/China. Also, the gm leagues are buggy, and most of the time represent a group of people with high enough MMR (think ELO) that played while GM was reset (it is cleared and started again every season). There are no norms, and one has to go inactive to be removed from gm Chess also requires tons of study, i.e. what to do against the semislav, what to do against the sicilian dragon, while SC2 can be won simply with better mechanics. | ||
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
SC2 at this state is still volatile and mechanically intensive. thats just playing a lot of games | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:40 DannyJ wrote: Can't be a serious question. dude.... you made this thread after your other thread was closed on the same topic?? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=314105 | ||
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Utinni
Canada1196 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:39 Chocolate wrote: Chess grandmaster is way harder to achieve, what kind of a question is that? why is this a thread? | ||
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karelen
Sweden2407 Posts
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Grohg
United States243 Posts
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Try
United States1293 Posts
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Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:44 Try wrote: lol this thread. Have you even ever played chess at a competitive level? His profile says he's a national master hahaha. | ||
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DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
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Try
United States1293 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:47 DannyJ wrote: Damn after looking at the wikipedia list of Chess Grandmasters it's pretty clear that Russians are the Koreans of chess. Pretty much, though its not so clear anymore, since after the USSR collapsed so did the "chess factories" that pretty much pumped out top players. | ||
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kirdie
Germany221 Posts
There are 5 servers(?) with 200 GMs each so there are 1000 Starcraft 2 grandmasters. How many chess grandmasters are there? (I don't know how exactly this title is specified, is it tied to an elo rating?) | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:50 kirdie wrote: I think what is more equivalent is the GSL Code S (see http://www.gomtv.net/). There are 5 servers(?) with 200 GMs each so there are 1000 Starcraft 2 grandmasters. How many chess grandmasters are there? (I don't know how exactly this title is specified, is it tied to an elo rating?) there is no equivalent in sc2. arguably, there may be an equivalent in sc:bw (the so called bonjwas), but even that is a poor argument to make. chess grandmasters are just so far above the curve for such long periods of time. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:34 ChessNetwork wrote: Hi all. I'm interested in receiving feedback from those who are SC2 AND chess players. I'm very new to SC2. So much so that I've never played a single game. I have however listened in on SC2 Twitch streams by Day9 and Artosis. In your opinion, is the SC2 or chess Grandmaster level more difficult to obtain? Your insight is appreciated. -Jerry Jerry I'm in love with your stream, so happy to see you here on TL. Edit: Chess GM way harder to obtain, for sure. | ||
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Serejai
6007 Posts
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Kenpachi
United States9908 Posts
On February 22 2012 10:56 Serejai wrote: I think SC2 Grandmaster is harder. I mean SC2 requires a lot of micro and macro and learning spells and units and stuff, plus you have to practice like ten hours a day. Chess, on the other hand, is pretty simple and I think anyone who plays it more than a year can be a grandmaster. All you do is memorize moves. you were always a good troll | ||
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Serejai
6007 Posts
There's no chance for an SC2 game to ever be planned out that way and thus the skillcap is infinitely higher. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:03 Serejai wrote: A computer can play chess because it's nothing more than a calcuated list of moves. You can plan out an entire chess game before it even happens simply by making a list of all available moves and then selecting the correct list after a move is played to continue. It all comes down to probability. There's no chance for an SC2 game to ever be planned out that way and thus the skillcap is infinitely higher. Owing in no small part to the limitations of human mechanics, a computer can easily beat a human in sc2 if the programming time was to be allotted for it. Program it to react to scouting information properly and it will quickly win nearly every game it plays. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
Most of the decent Sc2 grand master outside of Korea = decent amateur chess players, not even close of master material lol. | ||
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Redmark
Canada2129 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:11 Risen wrote: Owing in no small part to the limitations of human mechanics, a computer can easily beat a human in sc2 if the programming time was to be allotted for it. Program it to react to scouting information properly and it will quickly win nearly every game it plays. They can't even solve chess and you think they can make a proper AI for Sc2 ? hahahaha | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
First, we have to make some assumptions: I'm going to assume that GM is "working as intended" and the GM to get into is NA, EU or KR and not some low population server (e.g. SEA). In chess, the term Grandmaster was first given to 5 players by some Russian Tsar after a particular tournament (I think it's St Petersburg). In the past, it was extremely hard to become a chess Grandmaster - but now, it's actually quite different. Chess has been "solved" in the sense that many of the concepts are now readily understood and can be mathematically represented. So much so that the best chess players are now computers. Also, chess has now alot of explored territory - so much so that many openings now span 20+ moves and finding new moves in a given position are quite rare. Basically, if someone did some intensive training (2-3 months?) with a good coach, armed with a good database and computer (to look for novelties) can do pretty well. You'll still need to get over your nerves and translate it into match practice but you'll be pretty good and can try and become a Grandmaster. I still think that a chess Grandmaster is harder, but not by the margin that some people are thinking. If chess was where it was 30 years ago, then I would say chess by a huge margin, but it's the year 2012 at the moment. | ||
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Risen
United States7927 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:22 Boblion wrote: They can't even solve chess and you think they can make a proper AI for Sc2 ? hahahaha Why would making an AI for sc2 be hard? Where does the difficulty arise? There is a proper response to everything in sc2. See 1rax FE do X, see 2rax do X, scout denied, play safe and do X and beat him through superior mechanics and macro since you're a computer. | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:36 Risen wrote: Why would making an AI for sc2 be hard? Where does the difficulty arise? There is a proper response to everything in sc2. See 1rax FE do X, see 2rax do X, scout denied, play safe and do X and beat him through superior mechanics and macro since you're a computer. Absolutely - I reckon it's possible to make an impossible to beat AI And the poster you quoted is quite mistaken - chess is not "solved" but the AI > humans | ||
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snakeeyez
United States1231 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:22 Boblion wrote: They can't even solve chess and you think they can make a proper AI for Sc2 ? hahahaha I think AI can consistently beat grandmaster chess players at chess. If I remember right I think they did solve chess already. Lets ask is it harder to beat jaedong or flash at brood war or to beat a chess grandmaster? I think brood war is a much better place to study AI then starcraft 2 because its much older and arguably has better balance. | ||
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Whatson
United States5357 Posts
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
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Quenchiest
Canada286 Posts
He probably comes here and asks the question because people in his stream are always bringing up how SC2 is the chess of the video game world. | ||
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Iranon
United States983 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:41 Azzur wrote: Absolutely - I reckon it's possible to make an impossible to beat AI And the poster you quoted is quite mistaken - chess is not "solved" but the AI > humans I said it was solved ? | ||
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Azzur
Australia6260 Posts
On February 22 2012 11:45 snakeeyez wrote: I think AI can consistently beat grandmaster chess players at chess. If I remember right I think they did solve chess already. Lets ask is it harder to beat jaedong or flash at brood war or to beat a chess grandmaster? I think brood war is a much better place to study AI then starcraft 2 because its much older and arguably has better balance. Actually, chess AI is even more than beating random grandmasters - the AI beats the very top humans now regularly. | ||
HawaiianPig
Canada5155 Posts
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