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TL:DR At bottom
As we know there has been a lot of talk about mech in TvP and whether or not it is a viable strategy. I think most terrans agree that mech by itself just currently doesn't work out very well at all. Hellions currently are too fragile and get quickly killed then Thors get feedbacked/ just tanks left getting killed by charlots and immortals/ blink stalkers. Plus it is much to immobile to deal with blink stalker harrass etc.
However a full bio/mech composition with tanks thors hellions marines maruaders ghosts and medivacs etc. hasn't really been seen that much in tournaments. Why? Because Terran has to upgrade both mech and bio independently while protoss only has to upgrade ground weapons and armor (mind you an even cheaper price than terran upgrades). This leaves terran at a big upgrade disadvantage versus protoss whenever trying to go a mech/ bio composition. Which is the reason no one really does it.
I think this is the reason that all we see is either only bio or early all ins in TvP before toss can get upgrades/ charge and blink.
I agree that if terran had a similar system to protoss where we could just upgrade ground weapons and mech and bio both got upgraded it would cause problems in TvZ. But what if Zerg didnt have seperate melee/ missle attack upgrades and could just upgrade them both at once?
Obvously this would be really hard to balance in TvZ but I think it's what is needed to help balance TvP in my opinion.
TL:DR: Protoss only has to upgrade ground weapons while terran has to upgrade mech and bio independantly. Regardless of how mech is balanced in HOTS a mech/ bio compisition will never be a legitimate go to mid/ late game strategy due to the cost of upgrades/ engineering bays and armories). And if protoss is able to use a ranged seige unit (collosus)/ immortals in conjunction with gateway units why can't terran use tanks and thors is conjunction with bio? I believe part of the problem has to due with upgrades costing too much for both bio and mech at once.
Thoughts?
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lol
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On January 17 2012 05:03 McClellen wrote:
lol
User was warned for this post
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It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way.
User was warned for this post
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I still think Thors are underrused in the MU. I think ppl gave up on them because of energy but:
A) Ppl seem to be forgetting that while feedback increases in utility when thors hit the field, storm immediately becomes pretty useless, and Archon damage is significantly nerfed against armored units
B) Terrans can EMP their own units can they not? Just EMP any thors you have before any significant push commences or you see one coming.
C) BF Hellions still destroy zealots, and stalkers as a response are not great due to tanks, and if they mass more immortals incorporating banshees immediatley becomes much more powerful.
D) I still see this kind of play in high masters when I watch P streams, and win with it pretty convincingly, so clearly its not some unviable piece of sh it build or something. Ppl just aren't willing to play around with it enough because its quite contrary to the way most bio players play.
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How about we just fundamentally change the game for 1 matchup that will most likely be fixed in HotS? Because the game is already pretty close to balanced. It isn't perfect and it is no where near how balanced BW is, but thats because we haven't had time. Eventually, the metagame will shift or the introduction of new units will make the MU change.
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On January 17 2012 05:11 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:
It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way.
wtf does this even mean
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On January 17 2012 05:11 SKTerran.117 wrote:
Had to double check and make sure I wasn't on battle net forums. This thread won't last long.
I don't understand... I didn't say OMG Toss OP... I said that right now toss can just upgrade all of their ground units while terran has to upgrade both mech and bio for more money than protoss. If we could upgrade both at once we could possible see more varied strategies other than bio everytime. You guys are just trolls.
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On January 17 2012 05:15 McClellen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:11 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:
It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way. wtf does this even mean
means what it says retard read it
edit: and quit spamming if you don't have anything substantial to post
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On January 17 2012 05:15 envisioN . wrote:
How about we just fundamentally change the game for 1 matchup that will most likely be fixed in HotS? Because the game is already pretty close to balanced. It isn't perfect and it is no where near how balanced BW is, but thats because we haven't had time. Eventually, the metagame will shift or the introduction of new units will make the MU change.
HOTS may make mech viable in TvP but as long as terran has to upgrade both bio and mech a combination strategy will never be legitimate because you would be spending too much on upgrades to keep up. And I think the more variety the better,
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On January 17 2012 05:16 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:15 McClellen wrote:On January 17 2012 05:11 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:
It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way. wtf does this even mean means what it says retard read it edit: and quit spamming if you don't have anything substantial to post
lol
I did read it. Or tried. Couldn't quite figure out your point other than you're just mad your race isn't superior?
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your Country52798 Posts
Your solution is to change upgrades?
Win.
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On January 17 2012 05:09 justindab0mb wrote:
Don't do this.
It's been this way since Brood War, and the fact of the matter is that it's an issue that restricts a style of play that ought not to be played at all due to being bad?
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That's like saying PvT is imbalanced because Protoss can't win without gateway units. It's just how blizzard designed the T and P match up to be. The bane of factory units is chargelots just like the bane of terran bio in BW was reavers.
It fines down how the match up is played. Stop thinking so narrow minded and see from the opposite side. Just about any race can complain about any other race saying that a certain composition isn't gonna get a win and therefore is imbalanced. I don't see Zergs complaining saying roach hydra is too weak against terran mech and therefore breaking the match up.
Because it's a stupid and pointless argument. There's reasons why certain combinations don't work, because they aren't supposed to work for the balance of the game.
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Jesus christ not another mech TvP thread.
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On January 17 2012 05:16 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:15 McClellen wrote:On January 17 2012 05:11 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:
It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way. wtf does this even mean means what it says retard read it edit: and quit spamming if you don't have anything substantial to post
not to get off topic, but would you be the same "Zergtakeszeroskill" who spams protoss stream chats with terran UP comments until you get timed out or perma banned? cuz if so, nothing you say has any value in honest discussions, like this one (despite it being discussed to death a thousand other times in other threads by other people)
on topic though, the complaint of mech armies being too immobile, seige tanks make excellent static defense when placed inside bases 1 or 2 seige tanks near mineral lines or ledges can keep blink stalkers away quite easily, and dont waste as much supply as the required bio equivalent such as a handful or marine marauder inside a bunker.
as for the anti thor argument of them getting feedbacked, with proper control the protoss templars shouldnt even be able to get within range considering you should have helions and seige tanks keeping them back, it also forced protoss into templar tech path JUST to cancel out one unit (thor)
There are ways to make every playstyle work, just takes practice
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On January 17 2012 05:09 justindab0mb wrote:
I know what he's talking about. But I play Zerg. How do you think it feel to upgrade your Marines and Marauders separately?
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On January 17 2012 05:27 Spec wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:09 justindab0mb wrote:On January 17 2012 05:03 McClellen wrote:
lol I know what he's talking about. But I play Zerg. How do you think it feel to upgrade your Marines and Marauders separately?
How does it feel to not upgrade all your units and buildings with a single upgrade >: 3 *sticks out tongue*
/gasoline
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On January 17 2012 05:22 Louis8k8 wrote:
That's like saying PvT is imbalanced because Protoss can't win without gateway units. It's just how blizzard designed the T and P match up to be. The bane of factory units is chargelots just like the bane of terran bio in BW was reavers.
It fines down how the match up is played. Stop thinking so narrow minded and see from the opposite side. Just about any race can complain about any other race saying that a certain composition isn't gonna get a win and therefore is imbalanced. I don't see Zergs complaining saying roach hydra is too weak against terran mech and therefore breaking the match up.
Because it's a stupid and pointless argument. There's reasons why certain combinations don't work, because they aren't supposed to work for the balance of the game. So you're saying mech/ bio shouldn't work against protoss because thats the way blizzard designed the game? Then why do protoss get to have ranged seige units (collosus) plus immortals/ templar and gateway units, while Terran can only make Marines Marauders and ghosts?
My argument is that Terran should be able to use mech in combination with bio just like toss can use collosus and immortals in conjunction with gateway units. And obviously u can make mech and bio at once but if it was viable we would have seen it in tournaments already.
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Mech isn't used because tanks are good against... sentries, HT, colossi and stalkers pre blink. With upgrades just about every  unit counters tanks.
Upgrades are not the issue (terrans usually have no problem getting bio and mech upgrades in TvT and TvZ or getting +1 air weapons in TvP).
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This guy is just staying that people do not really mix bio/mech for long macro games because it would be impossible to keep up with upgrades. You would need double ebay and double armory pumping double ups just to get 2-2 on all ground forces to keep up with a protoss that is double forging. It would cost more than double what the protoss is paying.
He's not saying this is IMBA, each race has pros and cons to how they upgrade. He is just theorizing that this is the reason pros do not do this. No need for everyone to flame him.
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On January 17 2012 05:26 TechnoSchaman wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:16 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:On January 17 2012 05:15 McClellen wrote:On January 17 2012 05:11 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:
It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way. wtf does this even mean means what it says retard read it edit: and quit spamming if you don't have anything substantial to post not to get off topic, but would you be the same "Zergtakeszeroskill" who spams protoss stream chats with terran UP comments until you get timed out or perma banned? cuz if so, nothing you say has any value in honest discussions, like this one (despite it being discussed to death a thousand other times in other threads by other people) on topic though, the complaint of mech armies being too immobile, seige tanks make excellent static defense when placed inside bases 1 or 2 seige tanks near mineral lines or ledges can keep blink stalkers away quite easily, and dont waste as much supply as the required bio equivalent such as a handful or marine marauder inside a bunker. as for the anti thor argument of them getting feedbacked, with proper control the protoss templars shouldnt even be able to get within range considering you should have helions and seige tanks keeping them back, it also forced protoss into templar tech path JUST to cancel out one unit (thor) There are ways to make every playstyle work, just takes practice
I agree.
I think the lack of terrans using mech in the matchup is mostly due to it never actually taking off in the first place so few people really know how to play mech to its full potential.
I would also put it down to the fact that playing mech requires a lot of patience and cool decisionmaking. Whereas bio gives terrans a cheap and easy way to get victory whenever they see the tosser make the slightest mistake, from early to end game.
But yeah it is silly to deny the power of mech, it gets exponentially stronger with supply and there is no protoss ground counter to >100 supply worth of siegetanks. They even 1 shot immortals at that point, nothing even gets close enough to give even a single tank scratch damage. If you don't believe me, go grab a friend and test this out yourself, you may surprise yourself.
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On January 17 2012 05:45 Rucho wrote:
This guy is just staying that people do not really mix bio/mech for long macro games because it would be impossible to keep up with upgrades. You would need double ebay and double armory pumping double ups just to get 2-2 on all ground forces to keep up with a protoss that is double forging. It would cost more than double what the protoss is paying.
He's not saying this is IMBA, each race has pros and cons to how they upgrade. He is just theorizing that this is the reason pros do not do this. No need for everyone to flame him.
Exactly, thank you god somebody can read.
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your Country52798 Posts
On January 17 2012 05:48 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:45 Rucho wrote:
This guy is just staying that people do not really mix bio/mech for long macro games because it would be impossible to keep up with upgrades. You would need double ebay and double armory pumping double ups just to get 2-2 on all ground forces to keep up with a protoss that is double forging. It would cost more than double what the protoss is paying.
He's not saying this is IMBA, each race has pros and cons to how they upgrade. He is just theorizing that this is the reason pros do not do this. No need for everyone to flame him. Exactly, thank you god somebody can read.
I understood 
I just don't think that your solution would work very well (mostly balance in TvZ)
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On January 17 2012 05:47 Selendis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:26 TechnoSchaman wrote:On January 17 2012 05:16 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:On January 17 2012 05:15 McClellen wrote:On January 17 2012 05:11 Zergtakeszeroskill wrote:
It's not just the upgrades. Tanks in siege mode are doing 35 damage to zealots and archons right now, which is some pretty stupid shit considering all the drawbacks of siege tanks and when comparing them to tanks in BW. Terran will be forced to stay on bio from beginning to end in TvP for a long time because blizzard are too stupid/do not give a shit and will always adhere to the whining of bronze zerg and protoss players. If you think it's bad now you haven't even gotten your feet wet, you can expect more Terran nerfs in the near future.. Be a true Terran player and just own noobs anyway, even with all these faggots in our way. wtf does this even mean means what it says retard read it edit: and quit spamming if you don't have anything substantial to post not to get off topic, but would you be the same "Zergtakeszeroskill" who spams protoss stream chats with terran UP comments until you get timed out or perma banned? cuz if so, nothing you say has any value in honest discussions, like this one (despite it being discussed to death a thousand other times in other threads by other people) on topic though, the complaint of mech armies being too immobile, seige tanks make excellent static defense when placed inside bases 1 or 2 seige tanks near mineral lines or ledges can keep blink stalkers away quite easily, and dont waste as much supply as the required bio equivalent such as a handful or marine marauder inside a bunker. as for the anti thor argument of them getting feedbacked, with proper control the protoss templars shouldnt even be able to get within range considering you should have helions and seige tanks keeping them back, it also forced protoss into templar tech path JUST to cancel out one unit (thor) There are ways to make every playstyle work, just takes practice I agree. I think the lack of terrans using mech in the matchup is mostly due to it never actually taking off in the first place so few people really know how to play mech to its full potential. I would also put it down to the fact that playing mech requires a lot of patience and cool decisionmaking. Whereas bio gives terrans a cheap and easy way to get victory whenever they see the tosser make the slightest mistake, from early to end game. But yeah it is silly to deny the power of mech, it gets exponentially stronger with supply and there is no protoss ground counter to >100 supply worth of siegetanks. They even 1 shot immortals at that point, nothing even gets close enough to give even a single tank scratch damage. If you don't believe me, go grab a friend and test this out yourself, you may surprise yourself.
Zealot bombs+Immortals. You need ghost vs immortals. So basically TvP you need turrets, vikings, ghosts, tanks and Hellions. There is also Thor, Hellion, Banshee, Raven can sort of work if the protoss isn't ready for it.
Mech is really immobile while bio is very mobile. I think this is the big issue with mech TvP
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United States7488 Posts
This thread and topic are nightmare material that is leading down a path of imbalance arguments that will go nowhere useful. I am going to close this.
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EPT
