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On January 11 2012 14:06 NovaTheFeared wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 12:14 TotalBalanceSC2 wrote:
I do beleive all killing is wrong, and although it can be justified it is never right. incapacitating the man by smacking over the head with a brick is fine, but if while he is down on the ground you hit him again for "good measure" that is wrong. I do Kung Fu and in order these are the ways to attempt to resolve conflict that are taught to us.
1) try to avoid actions that would get you into conflict.
2) try to resolve conflict verbally.
3) try to escape the aggressor.
4) if there are other people around ask for help
5) fight back using the minimum force neccessary.
of course in your scenario presuming she was just randomly grabbed point 1 has no effect. But you should not immediately try to kill someone to defend yourself. I apoligize for appearing close minded, i will try and correct that.
If a kid is carrying around a knife, why not a taser perfecly good for incapacitation, and less likely to accidently kill someone. What kid has access to a taser? Is there any way that is not a dumb question? He probably took a knife because that was what he had access to in order to defend himself, but even a gun is much more likely than a taser. Come on, man.
^ this. The kid was like 16, how is he suppose to get a hold of a taser or mace ffs. I'm almost 100% sure the kid did your 5 steps but the bully had a determination to pester him no matter what he did to avoid it.
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Wow. Who knew?
I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words...
I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it.
If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period.
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LOL at all the drama in here...
On the OP:
Bullying? Um... no. That isn't "bullied attacks and kills bully" that was "kid attacks and kills attacker".
The crime being committed was one of assault, probably with intent to cause great bodily harm or death. That's a violent felony. No country has ever forbidden it's citizens from answering deadly force and intent with deadly force and intent. It is a law as old as society. You can't expect a person to be killed without defending themselves. Defending oneself will always be a potentially deadly act. It may not cause death, but it can cause death. One punch is enough to kill.
Nor can one be asked to sit and wait and trust their attackers intentions. If someone is attacking you and shows no sign of stopping, that is deadly intent and they are clearly responsible for their own death or injury when you defend yourself.
Props to the kid. Hope he has no hang-ups about this, and if he does, hope he finds some health professional to sort it out. I hope this sets some kind of precedence. People have to fucking defend themselves and the bullshit attackers need to fucking learn that attacking the wrong person means they die. Good goddamn riddance. Let God sort it out.
That's my two cents...
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I took a knife to school once when a group of guys who had been bullying me were threatening me with a severe beating. Lucky for me and I guess them, they never acted on it. I totally understand where this kid was coming from. And frankly teachers can do nothing about it unless they are given the ability to come down hard on the bully.
You can't stop a bully with a few words. They don't respond to that. A bully understands one thing. Who is the strongest. If a teacher isn't allowed to use force on a bully then the bully won't back down unless the victim drops the bully. I stopped a couple bullies with a couple of fights that put them on the ground.
Anyone who thinks they can use reason and logic to teach a bully has never been really bullied (a few bad words is not bullying). Sad that the bully had to die but glad the kid isn't getting anything against him for it.
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On January 10 2012 15:07 firehand101 wrote:
he is only a kid, but still murder is murder
No, i think they'll charge him with manslaughter.
He can argued that it was for self-defence, and he can argue that it was an "in the heat of passion" that caused him to take out the knife and stab. Which falls under manslaughter.
Murder requires the kid to have planned and deliberate the stabbing.
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If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period.
Few people would be pleased that this boy was killed. In an ideal world, a bully would learn from his mistakes (either by introspection or by punishment) and then lead a productive and happy life. That would be my choice, and I suspect that most other posters would agree.
What is disagreeable is the prospect of trying a victim of serial, gang bullying for murder when he uses deadly force to defend himself against the latest in a long line of attacks.
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On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period.
Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it."
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On January 11 2012 15:19 Air4013 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period. Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it."
You are assuming that I was never bullied when it was an almost daily reality for me in middle and high school. Does it disturb you that your rejection of my post hinges on a fictional account of my life that you have created to protect your worldview? Probably not.
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all telling on the teacher does is motivate the bully into hurting you more most of the time, i don't see how words are supposed to calm down a raging bull, why a bully, they're the same thing to me, they both get mad easily when you pester them (telling the teacher) and they both charge at you with intent of harm, in my opinion, just try to stay far away, if you can't, sure, use self defence, but only to a certain extent. now, in some of the posts, i've read that there WAS a crowd, because there was a crowd, I am 100% sure that at least 1 person in there was part of the bully's gang/whatever so even though he may be winning the fight, a random punch that you have no chance of bracing yourself against can turn the tide of the battle, so if he stabs the bully, the rest are scared and won't mess with him, cut off the head and body dies so yes, there isn't really another choice but to act hard and fast, even if it is with a knife
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Can i ask the people who are against the victim what they think about people joining the army and such? I mean they're voluntarily picking up guns to shoot strangers in their own country. Maybe they should all be tried for murder as well?
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On January 11 2012 15:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:19 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period. Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it." You are assuming that I was never bullied when it was an almost daily reality for me in middle and high school. Does it disturb you that your rejection of my post hinges on a fictional account of my life that you have created to protect your worldview? Probably not.
I find that pretty hard to believe, or the 'abuse' you experienced was nowhere near the level in this case, there's a huge difference in being pushed into a locker and being circled by 8 teens who want nothing more then to beat living the shit out of you.
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On January 11 2012 15:33 Air4013 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 11 2012 15:19 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period. Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it." You are assuming that I was never bullied when it was an almost daily reality for me in middle and high school. Does it disturb you that your rejection of my post hinges on a fictional account of my life that you have created to protect your worldview? Probably not. I find that pretty hard to believe, or the 'abuse' you experienced was nowhere near the level in this case, there's a huge difference in being pushed into a locker and being circled by 8 teens who want nothing more then to beat living the shit out of you.
Of course you find that hard to believe—because in your head the only possible way that I can disagree with you on this point is by being "so ignorant" and believing a bully should go "unpunished." You find it hard to believe because your insight into this case is pristine and disinterested and mine is misguided and deluded.
As a child, I was bullied. I was stolen from and intimidated and humiliated in front of my peers and even beaten up on different occasions. What does my testimony matter, though? Your mind is already made up. Your conclusions concluded, and my protests are invalid because you know—without ever having met me, without the ability to even pick me out in a crowd—that my personal history invalidates my opinion on this subject.
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On January 11 2012 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:33 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 15:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 11 2012 15:19 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period. Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it." You are assuming that I was never bullied when it was an almost daily reality for me in middle and high school. Does it disturb you that your rejection of my post hinges on a fictional account of my life that you have created to protect your worldview? Probably not. I find that pretty hard to believe, or the 'abuse' you experienced was nowhere near the level in this case, there's a huge difference in being pushed into a locker and being circled by 8 teens who want nothing more then to beat living the shit out of you. Of course you find that hard to believe—because in your head the only possible way that I can disagree with you on this point is by being "so ignorant" and believing a bully should go "unpunished." You find it hard to believe because your insight into this case is pristine and disinterested and mine is misguided and deluded. As a child, I was bullied. I was stolen from and intimidated and humiliated in front of my peers and even beaten up on different occasions. What does my testimony matter, though? Your mind is already made up. Your conclusions concluded, and my protests are invalid because you know—without ever having met me, without the ability to even pick me out in a crowd—that my personal history invalidates my opinion on this subject.
I just think that the world is better off without dipshits like the bully. If we could have made him just not exist in the first place, of course I would choose that option. If we could have made him truly learn a lesson without dying, thats even better. If the only option is to let him get a slap on the wrist or have him killed off, I'll gladly wish for his death. If one douchebag dying as a result of his own cruel activities allows kids to not be tormented by him in the future, of course I'll be glad that he's dead.
This is of course assuming that he is as big of an asshole as we imagine him to be, and that there is no other option to stop his victims from being bullied.
Go ahead and call me a sick person. I will readily admit that I like seeing bad people suffer from their own cruelty and narcissism
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Good. What went around came around. I have no sympathy whatsoever for a gang of teens who physically bullied a lone kid. None whatsoever. Bully had it coming for him and honestly I feel good hearing this.
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On January 11 2012 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:33 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 15:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 11 2012 15:19 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period. Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it." You are assuming that I was never bullied when it was an almost daily reality for me in middle and high school. Does it disturb you that your rejection of my post hinges on a fictional account of my life that you have created to protect your worldview? Probably not. I find that pretty hard to believe, or the 'abuse' you experienced was nowhere near the level in this case, there's a huge difference in being pushed into a locker and being circled by 8 teens who want nothing more then to beat living the shit out of you. Of course you find that hard to believe—because in your head the only possible way that I can disagree with you on this point is by being "so ignorant" and believing a bully should go "unpunished." You find it hard to believe because your insight into this case is pristine and disinterested and mine is misguided and deluded. As a child, I was bullied. I was stolen from and intimidated and humiliated in front of my peers and even beaten up on different occasions. What does my testimony matter, though? Your mind is already made up. Your conclusions concluded, and my protests are invalid because you know—without ever having met me, without the ability to even pick me out in a crowd—that my personal history invalidates my opinion on this subject.
Well if true you have my honest and sincere sympathy over what happened to you as a child, as you can tell from my comments I feel like nobody should have to endure the kind of abuse that you, myself, and the child from this case endured. What I find so ridiculous is your view on the subject at hand which you seem to have gone unbelievably off-topic from, a child was beaten, tortured, and scared to the point he feared for his life he brought the knife because he feared these people where going to beat him so badly he could die and you feel the aggressor is the victim in this situation? Get real man, he tormented this kid for over a year for no reason man and the victim finally retaliated after all the abuse he's suffered and he's the bad guy? Totally delusional.
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Sad to say this topic brings up issues that most people simply cannot honestly say they are 100% sure of. My example is this. I was raised in what I describe as a power-christian home, fundamentalist to a pretty high extreme. What that meant is that I was taught that violence is never an option. "Christians in ancient rome were thrown to the lions in the arena and still didnt fight back" or "Jesus teaches us to turn the other cheek" etc.
The problem with this is that a vast majority of us like to embrace ideologies like this on a theoretical basis. Which is just fine unless we ourselfs are put in a position in which we have to practice turning the other cheek. I know personally that I stopped believing what I was being tought at home and theologically when I first started encountering bullies (which was early and often due to my 'fundamentalist upbringing' making me a target in certain situations. It wasnt long before i decided that the next person to mess with me was gonna get the horns. After a few small violent confrontations where fortunetaly noone was hurt the vast majority of bullying subsided as Im sure many here can attest to.
And so there it is. Violence never solves anything...except it does. Although many here would state that violence and especially deadly force are never acceptable, however if our discussion was about a home invasion by armed militants (terrorists etc) all of a sudden the amount of people opposed to meeting deadly force with deadly force would be drastically smaller.
And this is where I find myself, I disagree with violence in principle. I believe every avenue besides violence should be explored and violence used only as a last resort...but god help you if you threaten the lives of those i care about. Based on these views I dont find myself jumping on the bandwagon of the person being bullied in this case... but I'm not going to sit in judgement either.
TL:DR I guess im saying that in that situation everyone of us would have trouble turning the other cheek. Don't be so quick to judge because although you may have survived similar circumstances you weren't the one in this particular case. Also the very thought of violence never being an answer kinda goes opposite to human nature, dont be so sure you wouldnt lash out if you felt you had to in order to survive.
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On January 11 2012 16:05 Khelen wrote:
Sad to say this topic brings up issues that most people simply cannot honestly say they are 100% sure of. My example is this. I was raised in what I describe as a power-christian home, fundamentalist to a pretty high extreme. What that meant is that I was taught that violence is never an option. "Christians in ancient rome were thrown to the lions in the arena and still didnt fight back" or "Jesus teaches us to turn the other cheek" etc.
The problem with this is that a vast majority of us like to embrace ideologies like this on a theoretical basis. Which is just fine unless we ourselfs are put in a position in which we have to practice turning the other cheek. I know personally that I stopped believing what I was being tought at home and theologically when I first started encountering bullies (which was early and often due to my 'fundamentalist upbringing' making me a target in certain situations. It wasnt long before i decided that the next person to mess with me was gonna get the horns. After a few small violent confrontations where fortunetaly noone was hurt the vast majority of bullying subsided as Im sure many here can attest to.
And so there it is. Violence never solves anything...except it does. Although many here would state that violence and especially deadly force are never acceptable, however if our discussion was about a home invasion by armed militants (terrorists etc) all of a sudden the amount of people opposed to meeting deadly force with deadly force would be drastically smaller.
And this is where I find myself, I disagree with violence in principle. I believe every avenue besides violence should be explored and violence used only as a last resort...but god help you if you threaten the lives of those i care about. Based on these views I dont find myself jumping on the bandwagon of the person being bullied in this case... but I'm not going to sit in judgement either.
TL:DR I guess im saying that in that situation everyone of us would have trouble turning the other cheek. Don't be so quick to judge because although you may have survived similar circumstances you weren't the one in this particular case. Also the very thought of violence never being an answer kinda goes opposite to human nature, dont be so sure you wouldnt lash out if you felt you had to in order to survive.
He shouldn't have to turn the other cheek. He was going about his life.
I'm tired of the emphasis on the victim of bullying here. Oh, he should turn the other cheek, he should do X. How about he's the one getting his life f'd up? The bully is the one causing trouble, and he gets his consequences and everyone is like "well he should have taken it, should have taken the beating, it's wrong to stab someone." F that. Thankfully the state recognizes that principle and actually allows you to defend yourself. You start a fight with someone and get stabbed? Not going to cry over it. You break into someone's house and get shot? You got what you deserved. Thank you state legislators for defending victims instead of protecting offenders.
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I say, to hell with all bullies. Let them die and rot in hell. They're fucking sociopaths.
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On January 11 2012 15:58 Supamang wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 11 2012 15:33 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 15:25 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 11 2012 15:19 Air4013 wrote:On January 11 2012 14:40 HULKAMANIA wrote:Wow. Who knew? I've spent eight or so years on this site, and I've never, ever been so disgusted by a thread as I am by this one. I just have no words... I mean even granting that this Florida judge was right (which TL in any other case would definitely not grant to a Jeb Bush appointee who made a courtroom decision based on a vague-as-hell law lobbied through a red-state congress by the NRA [1])... but whatever... even granting that Jorge Saavedra acted purely out of visceral fear for his own life, I just can't stomach that there are posters in this thread fucking relishing in the fact that he stabbed another teen to death at a bus-stop. I can't fucking stand it. If you feel joy or satisfaction or even vindication when you hear about a minor being brutally killed by another minor for whatever god-damned reason at all, you are a sick person. Period. Lol here we have someone who has never experienced physical and mental torture for no other reason then the torturers jollies, what a disguising view of things. I can't stomach someone so ignorant to believe that someone tormenting another person to the point of fearing for their life should go unpunished. "I can't fucking stand it." You are assuming that I was never bullied when it was an almost daily reality for me in middle and high school. Does it disturb you that your rejection of my post hinges on a fictional account of my life that you have created to protect your worldview? Probably not. I find that pretty hard to believe, or the 'abuse' you experienced was nowhere near the level in this case, there's a huge difference in being pushed into a locker and being circled by 8 teens who want nothing more then to beat living the shit out of you. Of course you find that hard to believe—because in your head the only possible way that I can disagree with you on this point is by being "so ignorant" and believing a bully should go "unpunished." You find it hard to believe because your insight into this case is pristine and disinterested and mine is misguided and deluded. As a child, I was bullied. I was stolen from and intimidated and humiliated in front of my peers and even beaten up on different occasions. What does my testimony matter, though? Your mind is already made up. Your conclusions concluded, and my protests are invalid because you know—without ever having met me, without the ability to even pick me out in a crowd—that my personal history invalidates my opinion on this subject. I just think that the world is better off without dipshits like the bully. If we could have made him just not exist in the first place, of course I would choose that option. If we could have made him truly learn a lesson without dying, thats even better. If the only option is to let him get a slap on the wrist or have him killed off, I'll gladly wish for his death. If one douchebag dying as a result of his own cruel activities allows kids to not be tormented by him in the future, of course I'll be glad that he's dead. This is of course assuming that he is as big of an asshole as we imagine him to be, and that there is no other option to stop his victims from being bullied. Go ahead and call me a sick person. I will readily admit that I like seeing bad people suffer from their own cruelty and narcissism
Agree with all of this, especially the last sentence.
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He shouldn't have to turn the other cheek. He was going about his life.
maybe you should have read the entire post... or skipped to the TL:DR that I was nice enough to include for the literacy challenged.
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EPT
