There are 3 things in SC2 that make up a player's skill.

Macro, Micro, and Strategy

You can be really good in any of these three and easily break into masters or just be mediocre in all 3. A Pro is well rounded in all 3 but as players like Boxer have shown you can be specialized in one of them (Boxer is well known for amazing micro).

FabledIntegral

United States9232 Posts

January 07 2012 07:12 GMT

#42

I disagree - I was dicking around over spring break in around high diamond/low masters (and even vs some mid masters) and I won all my games through superior macro and terrible unit choice. I won a large majority of my TvTs, TvZs, and TvPs going pure reaper (and if they get air I would get ghosts). I played "standard" up until 8 minutes, mind you. Also played my ZvZs, ZvTs, ZvPs going pure Zerglings and queens for antiair. Would demolish Protoss masters players that even managed to get 200/200 deathballs because I could amass 80 spines and just counter attack their mains when they moved out. In PvZ and PvT I would go pure immortals, and archons if they got air (I just proxy gated PvP T_T).

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 07:18 GMT

#43

at this point everyone is just stating facts that are all true but in the end it doesnt matter

im attempting to see if garbage mechanics coupled with good strat can lead someone into masters league. why are people so upset about it. if im wrong i will fail.

i think that lesser levels of strat beat equal levels of macro

Blazinghand

United States25551 Posts

January 07 2012 07:22 GMT

#44

Garbage strat with garbage macro but good micro can make do-- 3 rax allin, VR allin / 4gate / various allins-- you don't need to be able to macro off 3 bases, tech and double upgrade and drop to win games. You don't even need some amazing strats.

You just need an all-in.

There are clearly several ways to get into Master League, some of which can be done somewhat easily if you are willing to put in the time and effort.

@OP: people will discuss this if you make a thread... I think it's reasonable for people to do so. Did you really expect people not to have a lively discussion? I think making a thread invites it :D

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 07:24 GMT

#45

its not a debate about how to get into masters league... i think people are missing the point. the point is macro gets masters
micro gets masters
strat imo is something you only need to do to get masters. this is a test to prove that people who claim "i dont have to time to get good at macro or work on my mechanics so thats why im in silver or plat" are full of $)#@ because as long as they understand the game they can still do it

Blazinghand

United States25551 Posts

January 07 2012 07:26 GMT

#46

I disagree. I think that learning strategies and timings, game sense, scouting, compositions, counter units, and strategies in general are hard. I think getting an understanding of the game is hard.

I think learning how to macro is substantially easier and takes less time-- nothing complicated there. Just build orders, rules to follow, and a simple composition like ling/bane/muta or stalker/colossus.

Arisen

United States2382 Posts

January 07 2012 07:42 GMT

#47

Like people said, getting into masters' isn't that much of an accomplishment, what's the point? of course you can get to masters with good strategy and subpar mechanics, you can get to masters doing pretty bad stuff (eg, 6 pool, scv all ins, etc)

sitromit

7051 Posts

January 07 2012 07:44 GMT

#48

On January 07 2012 13:01 ohokurwrong wrote:
For example. If i pick zerg and never use proper/fast inject methods (shift backspace method) and i go to each base click queen click inject this would be poor mechanics.

By your standard, here is a list of Zergs that have poor mechanics:

Nestea, Losira, DRG, July, Zenio, Leenock, pretty much any Zerg that has ever accomplished anything in the GSL. None of them hotkey Queens or use backspace, they all hotkey hatcheries individually, and some don't even use a hotkey for all the hatcheries and manage all of them individually at all times.

Azzur

Australia6259 Posts

January 07 2012 07:46 GMT

#49

Heh, masters terran here... (unranked now since I haven't played in a season).

My APM around the "APM-nerf" was around 70-80 and that was when I made serious attempts at increasing it past the 45-55 range. "Macro better" is very good advice because even though my APM sucks, at least I could execute my build to around the 70-80 supply almost perfectly.

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 07:48 GMT

#50

some ppl are incapable of being fast. and no one said getting masters was hard. i also never said i would 6 pool or cheese... im going to attempt at a very low APM to get masters by attempting to HARD COUNTER builds based on the limited scouting info zerg has

EternaLLegacy

United States410 Posts

January 07 2012 07:56 GMT

#51

OP actually has a very good point which he is attempting to reveal, which is the inability to take an inferior army and still win by outplaying your opponent. This was one of the most fundamentally important aspects of Broodwar, that while you can make the wrong units, you just have to work a little harder to make them as effective as the right ones. In SC2 if you make the wrong units you almost guaranteed cannot win.

PhantumX

Canada43 Posts

January 07 2012 07:57 GMT

#52

See this is the problem I really see here.

You cannot dismiss micro and mechanics from strat. You mentioned how a roach-bane > ling-bane, but banelings are not auto attack units, they explode when attacking. If the ling-bane can out micro roach-bane, he wins. Just telling someone to get a solid strat and not being micro them well or even have a good apm, is not the proper approach.

I'm all in lower league people focusing on their macro well, but think of it like this. Without macro you cannot micro to victory and without micro you cannot macro to vicotry. They're interconnected. You don't have to be perfect in either, but you have to have balance between the two.

FYI: a protoss deathball completely overturns what you are trying to do because that requires micro to have any chance to beat.

FYI x2: 4g vs 4g goes to better microer.

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 08:07 GMT

#53

On January 07 2012 16:56 EternaLLegacy wrote:
OP actually has a very good point which he is attempting to reveal, which is the inability to take an inferior army and still win by outplaying your opponent. This was one of the most fundamentally important aspects of Broodwar, that while you can make the wrong units, you just have to work a little harder to make them as effective as the right ones. In SC2 if you make the wrong units you almost guaranteed cannot win.

finally... someone gets it. er u might be person number 3

5unrise

New Zealand646 Posts

January 07 2012 08:25 GMT

#54

I think this idea of getting into diamond just by macro is true eleven months ago, but probably does not hold true now. A gold player today in my opinion has the mechanics of a low diamond back in around december last year.

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 08:31 GMT

#55

except micro has 0 to do with this...

5unrise

New Zealand646 Posts

January 07 2012 08:41 GMT

#56

On January 07 2012 17:31 ohokurwrong wrote:
except micro has 0 to do with this...

Yeah, good point. Micro is a part of good mechanics, int he same way as macro, so this should be taken into the experiment

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 08:45 GMT

#57

im attempting to display BAD mechanics and ONLY good strat/BO

5unrise

New Zealand646 Posts

January 07 2012 08:50 GMT

#58

On January 07 2012 17:45 ohokurwrong wrote:
im attempting to display BAD mechanics and ONLY good strat/BO

Oh okay

nanoscorp

United States1237 Posts

January 07 2012 08:50 GMT

#59

The rules you've established seem a little cumbersome and might get in the way of the point you're trying to make. What about making clear macro sacrifices in order to get better scouting info. Stuff like scouting on 9, aggressive overlord scouting or rushing OL speed would let you get a good picture of the opponent's plan. If you constantly trade minerals for scouting info, you're putting yourself at a macro disadvantage against someone doing a blind timing attack. You won't have quite as much stuff as you could have, but hopefully it'll be the right stuff.

ohokurwrong

Brazil283 Posts

January 07 2012 08:51 GMT

#60

i just dont ever want my speed to help me. i never want anything to do anything positive BUT the right build order. obviously i have to play the game and not just think at the screen the right build so 50 apm is a speed anyone can get but not a speed thats really any good