EPTSc2 strat > mechanics. attempts at proving it - Page 2
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
Bad mechanics + Amazing strategy = A Amazing mechanics + Bad strategy = B You think A>B? We can talk extremes like Grandmaster/Bronze Mechanics and Strategy. And imo mechanics will still get you way farther Kind of unrelated tho, a whole lot of sc2 is memory so apm won't show it. People's macro stinks because they forget to go back and spend their money while distracted, not because they don't do it fast enough. | ||
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
its just a theory/experiment that strat as your defining quality can get masters. no one need be upset and i disagree whole heartedly with the whole "ppl are capable but jsut forget" thats not true i know for a fact that there is a limit to someones multitasking. if you honestly think that everyone can multitask but the only thing that is stopping them is to remember to do it then i think we best stop the debate right here... as to giving a low level player strat a vs method b and seeing what trumps each other, i have coached many many players and proper builds and awareness of timings has got them from silver to plat and diamond to masters within a week or 2. you can go ask them if you would like they post in my coaching thread i agree that mechanics takes a player the furthest BUT if we compare say mechanics and strat in such a way as.... in a scale from 1-10 1 being bad and 10 being good, my strat level can be only 5 to get masters while my mechanic level needs to be 8. i think its harder to be more mechanically sound because not everyone can be fast at video games. mechanics are generally viewed from the speed at which you operate. how fast you do this and that is good mechanics or bad mechanics. when we look at players who do not play often, they will say well i dont play enough to learn the proper mechanics to be masters or diamond or plat. they attribute the lack of play to lack of speed. my claim is that if you do not play a lot but you KNOW a lot then you dont need the mechanical skill that is derived from mass gaming or consistant gaming each day. the theory is that someone with not a lot of playing time but can still read watch and learn will be able to succeed to a level of masters just like the guy who plays every day. | ||
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Skwid1g
United States953 Posts
I also think your test is quite flawed, as I could probably out macro half of the platinum/diamond leaguers with sub 50 apm. With that being said I brought 2 accounts into diamond only macroing (1 with random and 1 with toss) so unless you get into masters with your "bad mechanics" test I don't think you can safely say that macro < decision making, and even then it's really hard as you aren't using quantitative measurements, your decision making could be 10/10 and my macro could be 7/10 which is why my macro didn't carry me to masters, and it's really hard to really tell. Good luck nonetheless, but I don't think it'll prove much. | ||
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imjorman
United States580 Posts
Keep in mind: there's a good reason that Goody hasn't won a lot of big name games (yeah he took a match off ret today, but what notable tournaments has he done well in or won?) I say all of that to say this: trying to completely ignore mechanics because you saw a mediocre player have mediocre success isn't really proving anything. At best, your proving that it is possible to be mediocre and master league. Which I don't think anyone disputes. Pro's hate practice on NA for a reason: it's mediocre. | ||
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
there are some SERIOUS offenders of bad micro and multitasking it would shock you i think the thread i am deriving this from has a lot of validity as does the interest level of a player who might have very poor multitask to see that he doesnt need to be gifted in the speed department to win games i think people are overcomplicating this. im simply saying lol, that a high level of understanding of sc2 is all someone needs to get masters. i would love to quote people saying they cannot get masters because they do not have the time to get good at mechanics but i would not start a flame fest... and not only am i not missing ANY metagame (ask any of my students...) but im not even talking about pros in this scenario. in what world is a pro player completely horrid at an aspect of sc2 (maybe july zergs zvz) but really no pro is completely worthless at one thing. they are at least above avg at all aspects and then very gifted in others to compensate. if you have a better way of me testing strat vs mechanics then please tell me. as of now i can only slow down my gameplay and try and let decision making carry my way through | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
I'll take the easy way and work on keeping my money low. | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On January 07 2012 14:43 ohokurwrong wrote: if you have a better way of me testing strat vs mechanics then please tell me. as of now i can only slow down my gameplay and try and let decision making carry my way through -Make your mouse sensitivity 1/4th of what it is at now (your mouse speed/accuracy is part of mechanics) -Stay below 50 average apm -You are allowed to spread creep/drop but must do so under the above parameters (these are part of strategy and the above parameters should be sufficient in limiting yourself) APM should be sc2gears apm not sc2 replay apm. The sc2 gears one is your APM pre-patch where redundant actions ARE counted. Id suggest putting the sc2 gears set to "SC2 time" not "real time" Just a suggestion  | ||
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
On January 07 2012 14:57 Blazinghand wrote: People have literally 6-pooled into Master League. I'm not 100% sure what this is attempting to prove. There are a lot of ways to win matches. You don't have to learn complicated strategies-- nor do you have to learn solid macro or micro. I think the biggest thing holding people back and the easiest thing to improve is macro. If you want to take the hard route, that's fine by me, and I wish you the best of luck in your improvement. I'll take the easy way and work on keeping my money low. er im not actually improving by doing this... im already masters and you contradicted yourself "you dont need solid macro or micro you just need macro" ???? here is an example of where it doesnt matter what you do strat beats you. its zvp and im going mutas. you blindly do a 2 base blink stalker build. i win. u cant do anything about it sorry i win strat > everything else in this scenario. lets say its zvz u go bane i go bane roach, i win strat > everything else get the picture? | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25558 Posts
On January 07 2012 15:02 ohokurwrong wrote: er im not actually improving by doing this... im already masters and you contradicted yourself "you dont need solid macro or micro you just need macro" ???? here is an example of where it doesnt matter what you do strat beats you. its zvp and im going mutas. you blindly do a 2 base blink stalker build. i win. u cant do anything about it sorry i win strat > everything else in this scenario. lets say its zvz u go bane i go bane roach, i win strat > everything else get the picture? ._. You don't NEED any particular skill to get into master league. Micro or Macro or strategy-- you can be bad at any of these, as long as you're good enough at one of it. Please read more slowly. | ||
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
On January 07 2012 15:11 Blazinghand wrote: ._. You don't NEED any particular skill to get into master league. Micro or Macro or strategy-- you can be bad at any of these, as long as you're good enough at one of it. Please read more slowly. I go mass marines every game. My money is almost always 0. I only make 5 things the whole game - SCV, Marine, Barracks, supply depots, CC. My macro rocks woohoo! Guess I should be in masters right? NOPE! IM IN FUCKING GOLD. WHY MOMMA WHY????!??!?! SOME GUY ON TEAMLIQUID SAYS I ONLY NEED MACRO TO GET INTO MASTERS!!!!! EVERYONE SAYS MY STRAT SUCKS AND I DUNNO HOW TO SPLIT MARINES AND I DUNNO TIMINGS AND I DONT KNOW WHAT TANKS AND MEDIVACS DOES BUT I THOUGHT ONLY MACRO WAS IMPORTANT???? SO WHY DO I KEEP LOSING TO MASS BANELINGS AND MASS COLOSSI WHY WHY WHY IM SO SAD!!! User was warned for this post | ||
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
On January 07 2012 15:29 Clazziquai10 wrote: I go mass marines every game. My money is almost always 0. I only make 5 things the whole game - SCV, Marine, Barracks, supply depots, CC. My macro rocks woohoo! Guess I should be in masters right? NOPE! IM IN FUCKING GOLD. WHY MOMMA WHY????!??!?! SOME GUY ON TEAMLIQUID SAYS I ONLY NEED MACRO TO GET INTO MASTERS!!!!! EVERYONE SAYS MY STRAT SUCKS AND I DUNNO HOW TO SPLIT MARINES AND I DUNNO TIMINGS AND I DONT KNOW WHAT TANKS AND MEDIVACS DOES BUT I THOUGHT ONLY MACRO WAS IMPORTANT???? SO WHY DO I KEEP LOSING TO MASS BANELINGS AND MASS COLOSSI WHY WHY WHY IM SO SAD!!! Ive beaten lots of diamond players with mass queens and Im only mid-high masters. I dont believe you are macroing well enough if you're gold making marines  | ||
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Yendar
Belgium43 Posts
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
On January 07 2012 15:29 Clazziquai10 wrote: I go mass marines every game. My money is almost always 0. I only make 5 things the whole game - SCV, Marine, Barracks, supply depots, CC. My macro rocks woohoo! Guess I should be in masters right? NOPE! IM IN FUCKING GOLD. WHY MOMMA WHY????!??!?! SOME GUY ON TEAMLIQUID SAYS I ONLY NEED MACRO TO GET INTO MASTERS!!!!! EVERYONE SAYS MY STRAT SUCKS AND I DUNNO HOW TO SPLIT MARINES AND I DUNNO TIMINGS AND I DONT KNOW WHAT TANKS AND MEDIVACS DOES BUT I THOUGHT ONLY MACRO WAS IMPORTANT???? SO WHY DO I KEEP LOSING TO MASS BANELINGS AND MASS COLOSSI WHY WHY WHY IM SO SAD!!! User was warned for this post technically macro includes those units that you are not making. its not much of a troll | ||
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Clazziquai10
Singapore1949 Posts
On January 07 2012 15:37 TheGreenMachine wrote: Ive beaten lots of diamond players with mass queens and Im only mid-high masters. I dont believe you are macroing well enough if you're gold making marines Just kidding with my post - im actually diamond. Just wanting to say that macro isnt everything. I'm actually pretty sure mass queens per se wont get you far though - and if u do win with with mass queens im assuming transfuse is involved - so micro would be needed as well???  Just saying | ||
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AoWLuXus
Korea (South)109 Posts
my 2 cent | ||
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JagerGard
Sweden135 Posts
I mean, if you have a *PERFECTED* build, don't you need the *PERFECT* mechanics to execute that build? EDIT: Also, ThorZaIN once said on his stream that other pro-gamers have higher APM than him because he only clicks on the terrain once to move/a-move, others repeatedly click the same location for move/a-move. | ||
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ohokurwrong
Brazil283 Posts
On January 07 2012 15:55 JagerGard wrote: Well, don't builds require mechanics to pull off? I mean, if you have a *PERFECTED* build, don't you need the *PERFECT* mechanics to execute that build? EDIT: Also, ThorZaIN once said on his stream that other pro-gamers have higher APM than him because he only clicks on the terrain once to move/a-move, others repeatedly click the same location for move/a-move. im simply saying that a blink stalker build for example hard counters mutas on a map lets say taldarim alter u cant super pro mechanics your way outa this. there are plenty of other counters stephano style countered by blue flame and marines roaches vs banes 1 rax fe vs immortal or void ray plus 3 gate roach rush vs helion expo. these are all counters some of which yield better results then others but the points still true. in sc2 some strats are good enough to carry you through a match by itself hopefully i can do similar things every game | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
Having better mechanics never hurt. I can outplay somone with my better mechanics and overcome bad composition. Now, if someone is playing with the same mechanical skill as I am and is using a better strategy, of course he wins, that's the point of a strategy game. It's a hell of a lot easier to improve your strategy than improve your mechanics, which is why people (CORRECTLY) tell people in lower leagues to work on their mechanics. Please don't confuse players who are trying to learn in the most efficient way possible. | ||
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Arisen
United States2382 Posts
On January 07 2012 16:02 ohokurwrong wrote: im simply saying that a blink stalker build for example hard counters mutas on a map lets say taldarim alter u cant super pro mechanics your way outa this. there are plenty of other counters No they don't. Once again, please don't confuse people who are trying to learn. Every fucking protoss gets blink and plenty of people still rape them with mutas. Starcraft is not an A>B type of game, there are a ton of interactions going on all around the game. All this thread serves to do is mislead someone trying to get better. | ||
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