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Sc2 strat > mechanics. attempts at proving it - Page 4

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Math.random();
Profile Joined July 2011
433 Posts
January 07 2012 08:54 GMT
#61
A good strategy can break you ones but you won't be able to do anything about superior mechanics in a short period of time.
diophan
Profile Joined September 2011
United States1018 Posts
January 07 2012 08:58 GMT
#62
How are you proving you can do well with just strategy using this method? You can easily macro properly <50 APM, so unless you're going to float minerals on purpose all your going to show is that macro+good unit comps can get you into masters, which is pretty obviously true. When I played terran at diamond I would be around 40 APM and never be above 1k minerals.
Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
January 07 2012 09:26 GMT
#63
this who idea is rather ridiculous considering one could argue high hand speed and proper multitasking is just efficient strategy being carried out quickly. Thats to say quick knowledge and deduction. To purposely gimp yourself like this to prove a point that you need to understand unit composition is a bit silly. Also at some point, im guessing around mid-diamond, you'll start facing opponents who play just as smart as you, except 50% faster. At which point you'll have to play faster to beat them.
Idk I dont understand what you're trying to prove.
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
January 07 2012 09:29 GMT
#64
but my point is simply that in sc2 you dont need to be fast you just need to be doing the right BO

if you say "i dont understand the point of this" you cant read or didnt read. the point is to prove sc2 is more build order wins then anything else
Sporadic44
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States533 Posts
January 07 2012 09:33 GMT
#65
people have done the same thing with mechanics. Just because you do one aspect of the game well and ignore other facets of good play to the point where you get masters doesn't mean you've proven anything. but hey have fun, let us know how it goes
"Opportunities multiply as they are seized."
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-07 10:05:37
January 07 2012 09:54 GMT
#66
Your title that SC2 strat > mechanics does not make a whole lot of sense. There is very little doubt in my mind that it is possible to posses sufficiently superior strategy with apm less than 50 to get into masters. Given the current level of play of masters and below it is obvious to me that you will be able to do this. However, doing so will not prove that SC2 strat > mechanics. It proves that the level of strategic thinking possessed by players on the ladder leaves a lot to be desired. I believe we are astronomically far away from figuring this game out. Speaking hypothetically, if you were a strategic genius and started innovating better strategies at a blistering rate, posted your findings thereby spreading the new way of doing things that approximated the "proper" way to play, then everyone would adopt the new way. At that point mechanics > strategy because there is no more room for superior strategy. Advantages gained from strategy innovation are short lived because people adapt and it becomes about your mechanics again. This is why pros focus on mechanics. It is a long term approach to improvement. On top of that, Blizzard is constantly patching the game and releasing two new expansions. This can render the superior strategy you have developed useless. Improving mechanics develop skills that generally apply to any meta game.

In conclusion SC2 strat > mechanics when other player's strategy sucks. When your own strategy and your opponent's strategy has no deficiencies, mechanics are the only thing that matter.
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
January 07 2012 10:08 GMT
#67
when both sides are aware of the strats it theoretically makes sense. but explain to me this. can you beat a counter. by counter i mean if im zerg and i make mutas and he blindly does 2 base blink i lose the game. now how does mechanics beat this? answer is you cannot. if you are playing a zvz and he walls off with 4 lings you cannot tell what tech he is going. he goes banes u do speedling expo. you lose the game nothing you can do. yes you can add spines and make wall offs but thats not really what were talking about. were talking about how in sc2 units are so important that you CANNOT get around the fact that counters are more then just counters they are game ending hard counters

in sc2 the scouting and "tells" are so subtle and not always obvious. Idra can be quoted complaining about ppl just countering what hes doing and him not haveing a single shot at turning the game around. if you are countered in sc2 there is virtually nothing you can do to hold them off in time to change techs. its impossible. futhermore good mechanics take faster apm then 50 which is the other half of this. i cannot use any speed i may have to just overcome someone via making things faster then them even if they are the wrong things
SC2ShoWTimE
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany722 Posts
January 07 2012 10:13 GMT
#68
i think it´s well known that you can get easily into master league by doing certain strats for which you dont have to be fast or good at macro or anything else. but at the same time you can get into master by simply having good mechanics while you can do rather "stupid" tactics like mass queen or what ever.

so... i dunno how this should prove that strategy > mechanics.
Progamer
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
January 07 2012 10:19 GMT
#69
I don't follow what you mean by "can you beat a counter". If you lose to blind 2 base blink then your strategy sucked. I don't understand the point of your ZvZ example. I feel like your not understanding what I was saying. Pros strive to play reactively for a reason.
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-07 10:24:34
January 07 2012 10:21 GMT
#70
i know this. if i can use a strat that has a high success rate against a certain style and then repeat this for all the styles with the aim of 2 base countering them and i refine it, and make it fluent then it will most certainly prove this to be the case

if you are aware of how zvz works, the safest build is most likely a speedling expo with fast double queen. its safe from banes and roaches and it not bad on economics. but to know that you gota wall off with the queens for example is when your first 2 lings gets in and scouts his tech. if he makes 4 lings and walls top of ramp similar to BW well you just have to guess. hope you guess right because if you are on a map like xelnaga well you cannot hold a 1 base all in that easily. this is a map BO win that is hard to deal with sometimes aka the biggest problem in sc2

again i actually think terran might be the race i gota play. changed my tune on this via a PM i got. it makes sense i was hoping to avoid terran as i feel terran BO are very very nice and can hit timings that are very powerful and not hard to get to
SC2ShoWTimE
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany722 Posts
January 07 2012 10:24 GMT
#71
On January 07 2012 19:19 MarcusRife wrote:
I don't follow what you mean by "can you beat a counter". If you lose to blind 2 base blink then your strategy sucked. I don't understand the point of your ZvZ example. I feel like your not understanding what I was saying. Pros strive to play reactively for a reason.


absolutely. i mean you cant counter a strat or rather do a better strat than your opponent when he plays safe and reacts to your build.
Progamer
LordAwesome
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden30 Posts
January 07 2012 10:24 GMT
#72
If your theory holds true, why is it that every pro player who switched from Brood War or Wc3 instantly (like 1-2 weeks) got close to the same skill level in sc2. Owning players with 2000 games played after 100 games of sc2?

And this argument that GSL players have bad Micro/Macro, just look at a replay featuring a PRO player vs a non-pro. The difference in reaction time and micro is insane. Pro player attacks, -> the non pro player takes 3 seconds to react to it. If that happened in GSL the casters would be wondering if the player is drunk or afk.

Just look at a marine battle early game between say MVP vs KEEN or a non-korean. MVP will 90% of the time move his marines in position 0.5 sec faster every time.

And btw, Goody has way better macro/mouse control than anyone below GM, there is no Master League player in America/Europe with better macro than Goody.

When Goody has 4 tanks in que on a factory a caster will joke about how bad his macro is during battles. Anyone outside GM wouldn't even que tanks at that point, and instead float 1000 minerals.
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-07 10:29:28
January 07 2012 10:26 GMT
#73
um no... i dont think i have fought any masters in the top 8 that float mins. so....

you proved my point lol. that the strats in sc2 are so easy that you dont need much skill just knowledge. you proved MY point with taht statement lordawesome... i hope you know that...

i dare YOU to show me a single Wc3 player that switched over to BW and was able to play in korea. show me a sc2 player here thats never played broodwar and teach them every strat then have them fight even a C iccup player and watch him get mirked. everyone knows sc2 is easy when compared to the physical ability needed in BW. thats why strat > everything else in sc2

i mean really explain to me how someone who is not a pro but is in GM is on the same level as a pro. its because the gap that they mechanically have isnt as bad since the strats are so easy to pull off
prOxi.FighT
Profile Joined October 2009
Australia114 Posts
January 07 2012 10:27 GMT
#74
This thread is just Sc2 hate in disguise...
Suitup
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany53 Posts
January 07 2012 10:28 GMT
#75
are you commentating on your stream?
Id love to hear your strategic reasoning
New is always better!
Arisen
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States2382 Posts
January 07 2012 10:30 GMT
#76
Some of the comments in this thread will give you brain cancer

I would caution lower level players who are looking to improve to still work on mechanics. It's 1000% easier to improve your strategy after you have good mechanics then to improve your mechanics and you'll never be a good player without good mechanics.
"If you're not angry, you're not paying attention"
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
January 07 2012 10:31 GMT
#77
On January 07 2012 19:27 prOxi.FighT wrote:
This thread is just Sc2 hate in disguise...


lol it can most def be taken as that. im a bit disgusted that a person who i am actually 3 times faster then can make the same army as me. the making of armys is too easy in sc2. then controlling them... 1 keybind protoss can get masters. thats a joke. there are pros that use 1 keybind that are in code S. also a joke

i love sc2. i wish it was a game where speed matters more

yes ill commentate when mic gets here soon. might do it on old crappy mic after homestory cup tomorrow when i start this. it makes me sound more high pitched...
ohokurwrong
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Brazil283 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-01-07 10:34:04
January 07 2012 10:32 GMT
#78
On January 07 2012 19:30 Arisen wrote:
Some of the comments in this thread will give you brain cancer

I would caution lower level players who are looking to improve to still work on mechanics. It's 1000% easier to improve your strategy after you have good mechanics then to improve your mechanics and you'll never be a good player without good mechanics.


im also not disputing this. im just ATTEMPTING to make a point about how sc2s game is balanced/played is all

you know its possible im wrong? i might str8 fail. i might also come up with some pretty interesting builds. i already came up with a few during beta that were promptly copied and labeled but i wont drop names of the pro who stole my one true love, my z build
MarcusRife
Profile Joined March 2011
343 Posts
January 07 2012 10:32 GMT
#79
This thread is just Sc2 hate in disguise...


I think you are right. It is starting to sound like a complaint about game design. Perhaps ohokurwrong is an Idra smurf.
ddrddrddrddr
Profile Joined August 2010
1344 Posts
January 07 2012 10:51 GMT
#80
I'm not sure there are enough decisions left to improve upon once you're at a certain level. I think masters and above is pretty much all mechanics because conceptual decision making should all be mature by then.
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