well main reason your average reddit fan thinks Save is OBVIOUSLY (/s) better than Loopercorn is Monte Cristo. so unfortunately in this situation it's not as simple as it being a casual fan.
and this goes back to the thing I don't like about Monte, I actually really like and respect Monte but because of the way riot chokes out the airwaves of the majority of non-fluff content leaving a Vaccum where whatever Monte says is true, by default.
wildly controversial opinion/speculation incoming
Shiphtur being "one of the best mids in NA" is actually just a biproduct of Monte being annoyed with fans for thinking Zion Spartan was a potential best top laner NA. I think it's important that I insert a caviat here that I too was once a Zion bobo who thought the sky was the limit, in reality it seems like he a decent won't lose you a western LCS game and once in a blue moon will hard carry it top.
I'm sure you've been in solo q where a guy loses lane and he just constantly praises the other teams jungle in all chat to transfer any perceived glory off of his opponent. Monte simply applied the same tactics to try to get people to shut the fuck up about Zion. Shiphtur is not a bad player by any means but he never has shown anything in the pro scene worthy of the praise that Monte and CLG dumped on him by the truckload that split, I mean, at least he got a contract out of it!
just wanted to add because every time I bring this up it seems to get confused. I really like Monte, I just don't like that there is nobody who could, in front of the public, disagree with him and be taken seriously. More Riot's fault than his own.
Well where would you rank Shiphtur in NA LCS last split? cuz he's probably top 3, maybe top 2. Which is in your words "one of the best mids in NA", completely fits.
he's better than hai. he's probably around xwx (maybe a little below) not as good as bjergsen better than voyboy better than link hard to measure vs godbelter (probably around equal, pobelter has more throw/carry potential, but hard to tell with innox in toplane) better than prolly That puts him top 2, top 3 status.
On December 26 2014 03:18 wei2coolman wrote: Well where would you rank Shiphtur in NA LCS last split? cuz he's probably top 3, maybe top 2. Which is in your words "one of the best mids in NA", completely fits.
he's better than hai. he's probably around xwx (maybe a little below) not as good as bjergsen better than voyboy better than link hard to measure vs godbelter (probably around equal, pobelter has more throw/carry potential, but hard to tell with innox in toplane) better than prolly That puts him top 2, top 3 status.
Shiphtur better than Link last split? Pobelter was better, Link was better, i will even throw it here and say that Hai was better because Hai's impact was way bigger than Shiphtur by miles. Gosh, even Voyboy was better if we talk whole season.
Anyway, this season is going to be decider for Shiphtur. If Dignitas falls again and he plays like he did last year - with absolute focus on himself, then he's done.
Right now, without knowing what can be patched in a month it's probably something like:
Bjergsen Pobelter, XWX Hai Link, Keane, Shiphtur, Fenix Slooshi, Jesiz.
Lol, Jesiz, i completely forgot that he exists again.
Well Zion and Shiphtur both were considered to be elo hell when they were on Coast. Basically they were considered good and hyped because they carried Nintendudex, Wiz and Daydreaming with split-push comps with Jax and Nidalee.
Those two champs fit them the best. Zion really likes dueling and split-pushing. Shiphtur with old Nidalee gets to keep that KDA dream alive and land spears.
I feel Shiphtur is a middle of the pack mid laner. He has good KDA, but I feel that he doesn't have the same impact as players like XWX, Bjerg and Hai. Voy got better, but retired to get that Pooksie.
To be fair shiphtur had a strong IEM where he looked aggressive for the first time. I don't hold IEM in high regard when evaluating players but it was a very promising tournament for him at least (The rest of his team, less so)
It's funny we were just talking about how people overrate lane phase in regard to Looper because I feel Shiphtur is sorta the same way. He gets a really bad reputation because he sucks at farming in lane, but I think Shiphtur's ability to conceptualize team fights is actually really high level. Even if the execution is not always there, I think he is a cut above when it comes to the team fight.
This game (and this fight) in particular always stood out to me because of how he uses chokes and zone control so effectively in combination with his summoners:
It's always hard for me to judge Shiphtur compared to guys like Pobelter, who are really dominant laners but do not always transition well to the team fighting phase.
On December 26 2014 02:52 Slusher wrote: Shiphtur being "one of the best mids in NA" is actually just a biproduct of Monte being annoyed with fans for thinking Zion Spartan was a potential best top laner NA. I think it's important that I insert a caviat here that I too was once a Zion bobo who thought the sky was the limit, in reality it seems like he a decent won't lose you a western LCS game and once in a blue moon will hard carry it top.
I'm sure you've been in solo q where a guy loses lane and he just constantly praises the other teams jungle in all chat to transfer any perceived glory off of his opponent. Monte simply applied the same tactics to try to get people to shut the fuck up about Zion. Shiphtur is not a bad player by any means but he never has shown anything in the pro scene worthy of the praise that Monte and CLG dumped on him by the truckload that split, I mean, at least he got a contract out of it!
Actually remember when Dexter was talking about possible reasons why Nuke/Zoro/Mithy preferred hyrqbot over him? His main theory was that Nuke had a false perception of how good Hyrqbot is because in scrims he would just camp mid 24/7. And before Coast vs CLG 5th place match all Monte was talking about was "Shiphtur so good he literally carries 1v5 I'm so scared of him" so it's possible that for whatever reason he really thought that Shiphtur was so good that he disregarded Zion and just threw him in with the rest of Coast trash.
On December 26 2014 02:52 Slusher wrote: just wanted to add because every time I bring this up it seems to get confused. I really like Monte, I just don't like that there is nobody who could, in front of the public, disagree with him and be taken seriously. More Riot's fault than his own.
I imagine someone like Fionn or Thomas Watts could, but maybe I'm being optimistic.
Anyway I definitely don't think about Shiphtur as highly as I did during his time in Coast. My list would probably be similar to Wonderful's, except I expect Keane and Fenix to be Hai tier.
On December 26 2014 02:52 Slusher wrote: I'm sure you've been in solo q where a guy loses lane and he just constantly praises the other teams jungle in all chat to transfer any perceived glory off of his opponent. Monte simply applied the same tactics to try to get people to shut the fuck up about Zion. Shiphtur is not a bad player by any means but he never has shown anything in the pro scene worthy of the praise that Monte and CLG dumped on him by the truckload that split, I mean, at least he got a contract out of it!
mabye I'm just crazy.
just wanted to add because every time I bring this up it seems to get confused. I really like Monte, I just don't like that there is nobody who could, in front of the public, disagree with him and be taken seriously. More Riot's fault than his own
I dont care about this discussion about whos better than who, but I am really confused about this Monte point. I cant believe people think his opinion is that important. I for one never heard what he said about Shiphtur and if I did I would not care about it. He is a famous caster, but really nothing special when it comes to game knowledge. I would value a random players opinion over his any day.
Noone who disagrees with him would be taken serious? That is just ridiculous. Any player would be taken serious, and also casters like Jatt or Kobe.
On December 26 2014 10:45 wei2coolman wrote: I think shiphturs poor farming has a lot to do with his jungle pairings. He hasn't really had someone he could trust when he lanes.
Going to leave a note here that the last month that Shiphtur and Nintendude were playing together, Shiphtur completely shut down and didn't communicate with him at all. Is nintendude Kakao or Dandy? No, but going silent treatment isn't going to make either of them look any better.
the problem with Jatt is that Riot has put him front stage as a used car salesman of terrible players too many times. Like yea he could tell me X player is really good, but then I remember all the times Riot casters told me player Y (insert any former lcs player who didn't cut the mustard for Y) was really good too.
On December 26 2014 10:45 wei2coolman wrote: I think shiphturs poor farming has a lot to do with his jungle pairings. He hasn't really had someone he could trust when he lanes.
Going to leave a note here that the last month that Shiphtur and Nintendude were playing together, Shiphtur completely shut down and didn't communicate with him at all. Is nintendude Kakao or Dandy? No, but going silent treatment isn't going to make either of them look any better.
that was after a terrible season of playing out of his mind despite nintendude. I think towards relegation he was like "fuck it, i don't care any more".
On December 26 2014 02:52 Slusher wrote: I'm sure you've been in solo q where a guy loses lane and he just constantly praises the other teams jungle in all chat to transfer any perceived glory off of his opponent. Monte simply applied the same tactics to try to get people to shut the fuck up about Zion. Shiphtur is not a bad player by any means but he never has shown anything in the pro scene worthy of the praise that Monte and CLG dumped on him by the truckload that split, I mean, at least he got a contract out of it!
mabye I'm just crazy.
just wanted to add because every time I bring this up it seems to get confused. I really like Monte, I just don't like that there is nobody who could, in front of the public, disagree with him and be taken seriously. More Riot's fault than his own
I dont care about this discussion about whos better than who, but I am really confused about this Monte point. I cant believe people think his opinion is that important. I for one never heard what he said about Shiphtur and if I did I would not care about it. He is a famous caster, but really nothing special when it comes to game knowledge. I would value a random players opinion over his any day.
Noone who disagrees with him would be taken serious? That is just ridiculous. Any player would be taken serious, and also casters like Jatt or Kobe.
Or did I misunderstand something here?
Monte is disproportionately important because he is one of like 3 people not affiliated with a team (anymore, he still obviously is anti TSM) that will say a player is shit, or even that they played like shit.
What players say is always meaningless, and nearly everyone else in the scene is a cheerleader.
On December 26 2014 02:52 Slusher wrote: I'm sure you've been in solo q where a guy loses lane and he just constantly praises the other teams jungle in all chat to transfer any perceived glory off of his opponent. Monte simply applied the same tactics to try to get people to shut the fuck up about Zion. Shiphtur is not a bad player by any means but he never has shown anything in the pro scene worthy of the praise that Monte and CLG dumped on him by the truckload that split, I mean, at least he got a contract out of it!
mabye I'm just crazy.
just wanted to add because every time I bring this up it seems to get confused. I really like Monte, I just don't like that there is nobody who could, in front of the public, disagree with him and be taken seriously. More Riot's fault than his own
I dont care about this discussion about whos better than who, but I am really confused about this Monte point. I cant believe people think his opinion is that important. I for one never heard what he said about Shiphtur and if I did I would not care about it. He is a famous caster, but really nothing special when it comes to game knowledge. I would value a random players opinion over his any day.
Noone who disagrees with him would be taken serious? That is just ridiculous. Any player would be taken serious, and also casters like Jatt or Kobe.
Or did I misunderstand something here?
Monte is disproportionately important because he is one of like 3 people not affiliated with a team (anymore, he still obviously is anti TSM) that will say a player is shit, or even that they played like shit.
What players say is always meaningless, and nearly everyone else in the scene is a cheerleader.
Dont get why a players opinion is meaningless. They might not be as good at expressing themselves but they are the ones that actually play with the player they talk about on a daily basis. I would always prefer their opinion over one of the professional talking heads.
Of course these kinds of discussions are always very distorted by extreme hyperbole anyway. As we see with the Shiphtur example here who goes from "best player NA" to "total shit" to "really good" again in some peoples opinion. I dont take it all that serious.
On December 26 2014 02:52 Slusher wrote: I'm sure you've been in solo q where a guy loses lane and he just constantly praises the other teams jungle in all chat to transfer any perceived glory off of his opponent. Monte simply applied the same tactics to try to get people to shut the fuck up about Zion. Shiphtur is not a bad player by any means but he never has shown anything in the pro scene worthy of the praise that Monte and CLG dumped on him by the truckload that split, I mean, at least he got a contract out of it!
mabye I'm just crazy.
just wanted to add because every time I bring this up it seems to get confused. I really like Monte, I just don't like that there is nobody who could, in front of the public, disagree with him and be taken seriously. More Riot's fault than his own
I dont care about this discussion about whos better than who, but I am really confused about this Monte point. I cant believe people think his opinion is that important. I for one never heard what he said about Shiphtur and if I did I would not care about it. He is a famous caster, but really nothing special when it comes to game knowledge. I would value a random players opinion over his any day.
Noone who disagrees with him would be taken serious? That is just ridiculous. Any player would be taken serious, and also casters like Jatt or Kobe.
Or did I misunderstand something here?
Monte is disproportionately important because he is one of like 3 people not affiliated with a team (anymore, he still obviously is anti TSM) that will say a player is shit, or even that they played like shit.
What players say is always meaningless, and nearly everyone else in the scene is a cheerleader.
Dont get why a players opinion is meaningless. They might not be as good at expressing themselves but they are the ones that actually play with the player they talk about on a daily basis. I would always prefer their opinion over one of the professional talking heads.
Of course these kinds of discussions are always very distorted by extreme hyperbole anyway. As we see with the Shiphtur example here who goes from "best player NA" to "total shit" to "really good" again in some peoples opinion. I dont take it all that serious.
You completely missed the point.Nobody would actually say "yeah this guy is bad".Not in public at least.Which isn't bad or anything it just makes their opinions worthless.
EPT
