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On June 01 2014 00:09 UmberBane wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 23:40 AlterKot wrote:
OK, we knew that Riot wants LCS to be closed and only let teams compete in selection of tournaments (All-stars, Worlds, IEM). We didn't know they even hold restrictions on CN/KR just so Worlds feel all that more special and bring just a bit more viewers than International. Yes, it's quite ridiculous/paranoid. Worlds has always utterly dominated in that regard and there really is no need at all to strangle international competition in order to make Worlds more special.
Agreed, in S2 there were a dozen international tournaments and Worlds didn't feel any less special than in S3. If anything, building international storylines throughout the season might create more hype than starving the demand
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Imagine Champions/NLB, but instead of IM, Jin Air, Xenics etc. you get OMG, EDG, WE, maybe C9 or ALL? That would be better than any event organized by Riot or ESL. As I usually say in this topic - for all I care C9, CLG and ALL (and maybe SK?) can just give up their spots in Spring split and go to Korea and try to qualify for Champions/NLB, if they agree to play in LCS then it's their decision to live with Riot's restrictions. But not allowing Korea and China to collide... That's just frustrating.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 31 2014 23:40 AlterKot wrote:
OK, we knew that Riot wants LCS to be closed and only let teams compete in selection of tournaments (All-stars, Worlds, IEM). We didn't know they even hold restrictions on CN/KR just so Worlds feel all that more special and bring just a bit more viewers than International.
It's hard to overcome League fans for us, even if Korea now has DotA 2, game is officially released and more than doubled amount of players. But last time we had more than million concurrent viewers for the finals, so, got this 
InSec and Zero in Royal is just holy shit.
It's real chance for inSec to reboot his career, considering that his only opponents are basically Allen and ClearLove.
On June 01 2014 00:17 AlterKot wrote:
Imagine Champions/NLB, but instead of IM, Jin Air, Xenics etc. you get OMG, EDG, WE, maybe C9 or ALL? That would be better than any event organized by Riot or ESL. As I usually say in this topic - for all I care C9, CLG and ALL (and maybe SK?) can just give up their spots in Spring split and go to Korea and try to qualify for Champions/NLB, if they agree to play in LCS then it's their decision to live with Riot's restrictions. But not allowing Korea and China to collide... That's just frustrating.
Well, Riot better to reform circuits then, because it will happen anyway most likely, especially if West don't get finals on Worlds this time.
S2 Circuit was really good in that case, that's why i'm too hands for something like WCS system in League with every event having points + Regionals. LCS is good, but only for viewers. Anyway, we're already at this point when OGN champion is like Code S/OSL/MSL champion - best in the world.
Zero: Actually my parents said if you are going to try playing overseas, try somewhere further than China. You can always visit China but you can’t go to NA or South America that easily from Korea. They wanted me to go to somewhere that I wouldn’t normally go if I were to go somewhere overseas.
Lmfao.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
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On June 01 2014 00:19 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2014 23:40 AlterKot wrote:
OK, we knew that Riot wants LCS to be closed and only let teams compete in selection of tournaments (All-stars, Worlds, IEM). We didn't know they even hold restrictions on CN/KR just so Worlds feel all that more special and bring just a bit more viewers than International. It's hard to overcome League fans for us, even if Korea now has DotA 2, game is officially released and more than doubled amount of players. But last time we had more than million concurrent viewers for the finals, so, got this
Yeah this is exactly what I mean. Dota2 is doing very well now but Riot with their 8.5 mil. concurrent viewers really doesn't have to worry about winning some silly viewership pissing contest. Of course we know they always want to and as hard as they can, unfortunately.....
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 01 2014 00:25 UmberBane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 00:19 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On May 31 2014 23:40 AlterKot wrote:
OK, we knew that Riot wants LCS to be closed and only let teams compete in selection of tournaments (All-stars, Worlds, IEM). We didn't know they even hold restrictions on CN/KR just so Worlds feel all that more special and bring just a bit more viewers than International. It's hard to overcome League fans for us, even if Korea now has DotA 2, game is officially released and more than doubled amount of players. But last time we had more than million concurrent viewers for the finals, so, got this Yeah this is exactly what I mean. Dota2 is doing very well now but Riot with their 8.5 mil. concurrent viewers really doesn't have to worry about winning some silly viewership pissing contest. Of course we know they always want to and as hard as they can, unfortunately.....
Well, DotA2 fans now have glorious argument for LoL fans, considering prize pool :D
I really love DotA circuit, there are a lot of tournaments, you can make real powerranks and there are tons of international competition as well. Teams go up and down, learn and improve, change rosters, create random stacks and getting high or disbanding. It was a good road, last 7-8 years.
Look at MVP Phoenix. They were literally destroyed at SLTV IX by [A], DK, Empire and Na'Vi, they were getting destroyed on domestic scene by Zephyr. Did they regret? No. Where are they now? Overcame almost everyone to get their spot in TI4 play-ins. It's huge success for Korean scene and i'm happy to see it. And Zephyr were almost dead horse at SEA qualies.
Can same happen in League? Why not?
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On June 01 2014 00:31 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2014 00:25 UmberBane wrote:On June 01 2014 00:19 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On May 31 2014 23:40 AlterKot wrote:
OK, we knew that Riot wants LCS to be closed and only let teams compete in selection of tournaments (All-stars, Worlds, IEM). We didn't know they even hold restrictions on CN/KR just so Worlds feel all that more special and bring just a bit more viewers than International. It's hard to overcome League fans for us, even if Korea now has DotA 2, game is officially released and more than doubled amount of players. But last time we had more than million concurrent viewers for the finals, so, got this Yeah this is exactly what I mean. Dota2 is doing very well now but Riot with their 8.5 mil. concurrent viewers really doesn't have to worry about winning some silly viewership pissing contest. Of course we know they always want to and as hard as they can, unfortunately..... Well, DotA2 fans now have glorious argument for LoL fans, considering prize pool :D
Yup, they too love their pissing contests when they can. 
And MVP doing well is clearly because of the dancing coach.
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So what Valve does is they allow anyone who wants to organize a Dota 2 tournament and they give qualifier spots for winners/runners up of events they chose, and then just organize that one big International tournament, right? And it's only regarded as the most important because of the prizepool and production? And Riot did the same in S2, except with circuit points instead of tournament spots?
Which is why I'm so mad that Riot just came with their LCS, partnered up with OGN and LACE and started dealing cards and basically killed the competition in any region but KR because they think it'll make their events more exciting. It's a major example for me of why top-down organisation is much, much worse than bottom-up.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
In LoL players are too stronk, management is stronk in dota. Artstyle fucked with management after TI1 and in spite of being the champion every team he joined basically got shunned by the CIS pro community. Copenhagen Wolves are walking examples where cowbuck went out before forgiven lol. NA has started to grow a pair with reginaldo asserting himself as the alpha male of TSM and all that but EU players still too stronk, fnatic needs to slap some passion into soaz.
Honestly I like WCS, I'm probably one of the few but I thought WCS was a good system. Keep everything as it is, adding an own central tournament circuit and allocating points as necessary.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 01 2014 00:45 Fusilero wrote:
In LoL players are too stronk, management is stronk in dota. Artstyle fucked with management after TI1 and in spite of being the champion every team he joined basically got shunned by the CIS pro community. Copenhagen Wolves are walking examples where cowbuck went out before forgiven lol. NA has started to grow a pair with reginaldo asserting himself as the alpha male of TSM and all that but EU players still too stronk, fnatic needs to slap some passion into soaz.
Honestly I like WCS, I'm probably one of the few but I thought WCS was a good system. Keep everything as it is, adding an own central tournament circuit and allocating points as necessary.
Same here.
WCS system has some cons, but pros are incredible in comparison with Riot circuits.
S2 Riot circuit was basically WCS-2013 system - no part region locks, play everything you want, get points, succeed.
Throw away regional separation, get Worlds with 16 top teams who got most of points - profit.
Artstyle is massive asshole though, it's not like he's hated here, but welp, when you throw every organisation where you play, one-by-one into bonfire, it's understandable.
But it's right, dota teams in general are way more organised now, very little use coaches/analysts, working on it by themselves but management is working hard considering amount of tournaments.
Shoutout to Kelly here :D. <3 #longliveAlliance
On June 01 2014 00:45 AlterKot wrote:
So what Valve does is they allow anyone who wants to organize a Dota 2 tournament and they give qualifier spots for winners/runners up of events they chose, and then just organize that one big International tournament, right? And it's only regarded as the most important because of the prizepool and production? And Riot did the same in S2, except with circuit points instead of tournament spots?
Which is why I'm so mad that Riot just came with their LCS, partnered up with OGN and LACE and started dealing cards and basically killed the competition in any region but KR because they think it'll make their events more exciting. It's a major example for me of why top-down organisation is much, much worse than bottom-up.
Everyone can organise tournament, that's right but it's not that easy to do though. There are way more tournaments nowdays than 4-5 years ago, hell, even 1 year ago there weren't even half of current number. But there are big tournaments, like SLTV, Dreamhack, WPC, G1/G-League, D2L, new ESL tournament, MLG and bunch of others, and if you're top-2 on it, you're basically secured spot because it's big achievement.
No, International has invites (this season this number is 11) and 4 regional qualifiers. This season invites were all obvious, all 11, best teams right now will be on TI and regionals in general, got other 4 best teams from regions + there will be play-ins for 4 runner-ups of qualies in Seattle to find out 16th participant.
International is regarded as most important because of pride. Pride was always big part of DotA, since DotA 1 days. It was prestigious to win SMM/ESWC, WDC in 2010 was incredible because of explosion of pride in CIS community when we were screaming harder than when Na'Vi won Triple Crown in CS in same year, SEA community was going hard always as they are right now, Chinese teams always care about every perfomance.You don't really see it in LoL.
Noone really cares about money right now on TI, it's good, it's life-changing if you won, but being the best team in the world and Aegis holder is ridiculous pride.
But winning 4 millions if you're CIS/SEA/Chinese team is just gamechanger. It's incredible to even think of.
God, even for NA/EU/KR team it's gamechanging money, i bet.
About production - a lot of tournaments and broadcasting studios has sick production, it's not like TI is only tournament with real production value, shoutout to Gabe and Kacy Atchinson here.
About money.
DotA always struggled with money, we didn't have a lot of sponsors historically, let's say, as Riot, for example, has contracts with Coca Cola, US military and stuff - DotA never had such but we always had passionate fans. Compendium is just best idea which could be implemented by Valve - you want bunch of cosmetics, some fun experience and you like your team? Easy, buy ticket/compendium for laughable 5-10 bucks, send 2,5$ into prizepool. Everyone is really happy to do it, because anyway you can sell those items later if you don't need them, hell, you can even sell the book for 10x price but you support teams. Riot came with icons in shop after Compendium release, realising that it's good idea.
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Any world competition event is always going to end the same way: korea taking a massive dump on everyone else. Yet, right now at worlds there are always a bunch of delusional people that think "yeah, tsm can definetly beat skt", and even for others there is sometime the little "i want to beleive, maybe we closed the gap a bit" spark.
If international tournaments start to happen, and you watch korea dunking on fksks once a month, people will inevitably lose interess.
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Korea=Fire nation they are going take over the world, First Brazil then CLG, China,Sea and finally europe
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On June 01 2014 01:34 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
You don't really see it in LoL.
League is obviously more similar to SC in that regard, where from the Western viewpoint it's pretty much foreigners vs Koreans with a little NA/EU rivalry sprinkled in. In dota2 there's exists no such thing as an army of KeSPA machines that just sweep everyone in their way, the infrastructure and landscape is just completely different. This heavily shapes the scene of course, but you really can not ignore the national pride that is involved when Korea plays against China. Every Chinese team that loses to Koreans in an international tournament seems to be branded enemies of the Chinese nation afterwards. Also I think you'd be hard pressed to find a non-developer tournament right now that is as prestigious to win as OGN Champions is.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On June 01 2014 02:04 UmberBane wrote:League is obviously more similar to SC in that regard, where from the Western viewpoint it's pretty much foreigners vs Koreans with a little NA/EU rivalry sprinkled in. In dota2 there's exists no such thing as an army of KeSPA machines that just sweep everyone in their way, the infrastructure and landscape is just completely different. This heavily shapes the scene of course, but you really can not ignore the national pride that is involved when Korea plays against China. Every Chinese team that loses to Koreans in an international tournament seems to be branded enemies of the Chinese nation afterwards. Also I think you'd be hard pressed to find a non-developer tournament right now that is as prestigious to win as OGN Champions is.
China in 2008-2010 was just other level in comparison to other World.
It was basically same level of domination as KeSPA/World fight because of infrastructure/training/stuff + China always were passionate about Warcraft 3 in general, and that's one of the reasons of those China-Korea esports wars as well, when Sky, Lyn, Moon, Infi, Fly100%, TH000, Remind and other were fighting hard and furiously.
In League, you mean? Ye, there is nothing as prestigious as OGN win, i agree. Honestly, i don't think that Faker and Co were happier when they won Worlds than when they won OGN.
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On June 01 2014 00:45 AlterKot wrote:
Which is why I'm so mad that Riot just came with their LCS, partnered up with OGN and LACE and started dealing cards and basically killed the competition in any region but KR because they think it'll make their events more exciting. It's a major example for me of why top-down organisation is much, much worse than bottom-up.
Don't forget that the LCS is a huge success. It has great viewer numbers consistently, it has weekly games, which are usually sold out and the production is pretty good. too. It provides everything the Proleague provided.
Sure, it could be more competitive and the lack of international tournaments is a drawback but I think Beck is right that it makes Worlds even more special so it can fill the Staples Center and get a viewership in the Millions.
And I don't see how it killed the competition. If we were still at the level of 2012 with some major LANs and small online tournaments the scene might suffer as much as SC2 with Korean teams flying over and grabbing the prize pool. The system was kind of succesfull in 2012 because the west was still close to Korea skillwise. I don't think it would be with the current skill disparity.
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On June 01 2014 02:25 Don_Julio wrote:
If we were still at the level of 2012 with some major LANs and small online tournaments the scene might suffer as much as SC2 with Korean teams flying over and grabbing the prize pool. The system was kind of succesfull in 2012 because the west was still close to Korea skillwise. I don't think it would be with the current skill disparity.
The problem with SC2 is that the game isn't very good, not that Koreans are winning. There was certainly more interest in watching KTB stomp EU teams at IEM than for EU LCS itself this year.
Of course reverting to the Season 2 setup would be a step back overall, but there's a lot of middle ground between that and the isolation we have now.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
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As long as I can keep Fish, idc.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
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On June 01 2014 02:53 Dan HH wrote:
Of course reverting to the Season 2 setup would be a step back overall, but there's a lot of middle ground between that and the isolation we have now.
In what way would that be a step back actually? I despise LCS. Instead of getting a tournament every 2-3 weeks, we get a league where 70% of the games are meaningless because even if a bad team wins against a good one, it's just a one game in 28 they play. There's very little internatonal competition. Teams are competing for LCS spots and maybe top3 in summer, instead of competing for prize money every tournament, where every spot matters because it means higher payout (sry Wonderful but I don't really believe that pride is the main incentive). I only watch it because there's nothing else (outside of OGN), I'd absolutely love S2 circuit (with addition of shorter, OGN-style leagues).
On June 01 2014 02:25 Don_Julio wrote:
Don't forget that the LCS is a huge success. It has great viewer numbers consistently, it has weekly games, which are usually sold out and the production is pretty good. too. It provides everything the Proleague provided.
Sure, it could be more competitive and the lack of international tournaments is a drawback but I think Beck is right that it makes Worlds even more special so it can fill the Staples Center and get a viewership in the Millions.
And I don't see how it killed the competition. If we were still at the level of 2012 with some major LANs and small online tournaments the scene might suffer as much as SC2 with Korean teams flying over and grabbing the prize pool. The system was kind of succesfull in 2012 because the west was still close to Korea skillwise. I don't think it would be with the current skill disparity.
Is it really a huge success? From what I understand Riot doesn't really earn much from LCS (I doubt the tickets are even enough to pay for studio's rent and bills). Of course it's fine since it's all for promotion, but is it a success? First of all, it's hard to compare increase in viewership from S2 streams, because everyone got a boost in viewership since then, even fucking fighting games - Twitch (and streaming) simply got more popular. Not to mention that LoL is simply becoming more and more popular as a game, so that boosts viewer numbers. If MLGs and other tournaments were advertised in League client, I think they would have the same viewership as IEM, which was bigger than LCS IIRC. I thought that International shown that you don't need to starve viewers with international competition to pull the numbers. Also, I don't mind Koreans taking western money and I think that more open structure would narrow the skillgap rather than widening it, but that's another topic :p
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EPT
