On December 14 2011 18:44 Manifesto7 wrote: GOM TV, sinking to Naniwa's level. Sweet sweet drama.
Agreed. "amateur prize money hunter"? Wow. That's unbelievably immature of Mr. Chae.
what else could he be called? it's pretty clear he cant play like a pro when "nothing is on the line" aka be able to advance to the next round and win more money. amateur prize money hunter. couldnt have put it better myself.
The difference between an amateur and a professional is by definition money, not integrity.
Also I find it severly hypocritical that they keep Naniwa out of code S because he was "disrespectful" and then go on to be disrespectful themselves by slandering the player.
This is really not so clear. In my mind, I've always though being a pro involves more than just wanting to make money off something. I'm also pretty sure both definitions exist in dictionaries.
I'm pretty sure Mr. Chae is using the "professional" concept meaning "not just for dollars". It's up to context.
I agree though. It's out of line to slander him publicly, even if I think GOM's decision is right.
The point to me is that deliberately throwing a match is bad and should be punished. The complicating thing is if someone 6-pools or 4gates etc and loses, how can the tournament organisation prove that he deliberately lost? When a player moves his probes to his opponent's base and sits with his hand on his chin, he's making it clear to everyone that he's thrown the match.
So Naniwa was stupid, and puts GOM in a position where it's abundantly clear he played to lose. It's hard to think of a comparison in conventional sport because I don't know if there's ever been anyone so brazen about it, but, for example, when players have been proven beyond reasonable doubt to have deliberately lost, or even deliberately played badly, the've been severely punished. Why do you think tennis players fake injuries to pull out of matches? Because they know they'll be punished if they just say "sorry, not playing, I'm upset".
The way GOM handled it isn't great, personally attacking Naniwa. But I think the punishment is warranted.
On December 14 2011 23:42 hongo wrote: I understand it. I don't like it, but I understand it. It'd be like if professional sports teams just started playing stupidly when they knew they couldn't get to the play offs. Everyone would be pissed and some sort of punishment would be dealt out. It's the same thing. People was to see competition, they want a player who is competitive and wants to win no matter what. Naniwa did not show that. (I still like Naniwa I just understand both sides)
Not only this but in most NA professional sports their is actually rewards for having a worse finish but the players still go out to play and try to entertain the fans.
The ignorance.... Making...Ears...Bleed.
Yeah pro athletes always give 100% effort. Did someone really compare what Nani did to Tiger Woods defecating on a course while on live TV. Because that not only breaks multiple rules, its actually breaking multiple laws. TL'ers say the darndest things.
On December 14 2011 18:44 Manifesto7 wrote: GOM TV, sinking to Naniwa's level. Sweet sweet drama.
Agreed. "amateur prize money hunter"? Wow. That's unbelievably immature of Mr. Chae.
what else could he be called? it's pretty clear he cant play like a pro when "nothing is on the line" aka be able to advance to the next round and win more money. amateur prize money hunter. couldnt have put it better myself.
The difference between an amateur and a professional is by definition money, not integrity.
Also I find it severly hypocritical that they keep Naniwa out of code S because he was "disrespectful" and then go on to be disrespectful themselves by slandering the player.
except he already is paid by his sponsors/team to represent them in the best light possible. the onus is on him to play his best whenever he is on camera. he completely shit on his responsibility to his sponsors, the organizers of the tournament, and the fans who paid/stayed up late to watch this hyped up grudge match because it wouldnt have made a difference to him personally. an important difference in getting paid to do something and doing it for fun is that it's not just about you anymore.
edit: yeah..so that is what i meant by playing like a pro. it's pretty funny that you probably knew this already but had to try to hide behind semantics anyways because that's all that naniwa supporters can do right now.. lol
On December 14 2011 23:27 meadbert wrote: This is outrageous. We have had The Wind throw games to MC and Supernova in a an attempt to help them advance.
We have had Inca throw games to MC since he had a better chance in the next round.
We have had Nestea show up to important matches hung over.
All of this occurred with results on the line, and Naniwa is banned for an exhibition game?
I am a Naniwa fan, so I was as upset as anyone when I did not get to see him play Nestea, but retroactively making up a rule is just silly.
Seems like if you aren't so blatant about it then it's okay. GOM promoting deception over honesty. Keepin' it classy.
On December 14 2011 22:10 Zechs wrote: Also, stop with this nonsense about "owing it to the fans." He doesn't owe you or me a thing.
He doesn't need to do it, and that's why he gets kicked out of GSL. Getting in Code A/S is a huge opportunity for all SC2 pros and doing this is just disrespecting not only fans who paid to watch E-Sport but also every other pro out there.
Sundance said it in an interview after the last MLG, in order for E-Sport to grow you need the players to attract an audience, and Naniwa is just ignoring this fact and is going to be replaced because of that.
1. Yea, its a huge opportunity that he EARNED. 2. Implying that this whole thing isn't attracting an audience?
1. He earned it, took it for granted, and now it all went down the drain. 2. As I said, it's not like he's the only top foreigner to be able to compete & attract audience... Idra & Sen are going there to replace him, and I can assure you they will attract an audience as well and they will be smarter or be replaced (I'm sure they'll do better).
On December 14 2011 18:44 Manifesto7 wrote: GOM TV, sinking to Naniwa's level. Sweet sweet drama.
Agreed. "amateur prize money hunter"? Wow. That's unbelievably immature of Mr. Chae.
what else could he be called? it's pretty clear he cant play like a pro when "nothing is on the line" aka be able to advance to the next round and win more money. amateur prize money hunter. couldnt have put it better myself.
The difference between an amateur and a professional is by definition money, not integrity.
Also I find it severly hypocritical that they keep Naniwa out of code S because he was "disrespectful" and then go on to be disrespectful themselves by slandering the player.
The difference between a amateur and a professional is money. Who exactly do you think generate that money? Fans of eSports, no? Which in turn generate interest and incentive for sponsors to sponsor teams, players and leagues. Naniwa owe to show proper games to his team, his sponsors and to all his fans for getting him where he currently is.
When you're in Rome, do as Romans do. EU/NA apparently doesn't give a damn whether someone throws their games, Korea for obvious reason do. The punnishment was justified and I'm certianly getting a pass for next season.
Holy shit.............. I really hope naniwa comes back with a vengeance and hopefully can earn his Code S spot back... lost a lot of respect for GOM. I can't believe that a live TV show expects everything to go to plan always...
Makes me sick that everyone is saying that Naniwa is an amateur prize hunter or only in it for the money. It's very clear what his goals are and what he wants out of the game. I understand the difference in culture here but in a culture that prides themselves so very much on respect they need to stop saying such fucking disrespectful things about Naniwa,
Only if Naniwa starts respecting the integrity and prestige of GSL.
On December 14 2011 23:27 meadbert wrote: This is outrageous. We have had The Wind throw games to MC and Supernova in a an attempt to help them advance.
We have had Inca throw games to MC since he had a better chance in the next round.
We have had Nestea show up to important matches hung over.
All of this occurred with results on the line, and Naniwa is banned for an exhibition game?
I am a Naniwa fan, so I was as upset as anyone when I did not get to see him play Nestea, but retroactively making up a rule is just silly.
Seems like if you aren't so blatant about it then it's okay. GOM promoting deception over honesty. Keepin' it classy.
the difference being that being honest about being an asshole and disrespectful to the organizer is not ok, don't be surprised when you get punished afterward.
While being "deception" is definitely not ok, but its not something you can prove without reasonable evidence. If caught, you will be punished in the same way. Just because you speculate someone is doing the same thing doesn't make it true without evidence, whereas naniwa is just a retard that makes it blatantly obvious
All the people saying things like "Naniwa should be punished ..." This is not about some mother punishig her child, it is about a competitive sports tournament. And in a competitive sport , they only time people should and will (almost every time) get punished is if they break the rules. If you want certain behaviour not to occur, then create a rule. If you want a competitive scene that wants to be taken serious, the only time you interfere is if someone broke a rule. If you punish people for what you want its not a serious sport anymore , its a few kids playing football in the backyard doing what they want.
Do any of you even watch sports? Even if a team is out of a tournament or about to get relegated to a lower league like in the English premier league (football) they still have to play their best.
Teams face huge fines and point deductions if they decide to simply play their worst players because the games don't really matter etc.
Stop being so stupid and realise that you can't throw games even if they don't matter. You have to always play your best, always. That's sports.
On December 14 2011 23:42 hongo wrote: I understand it. I don't like it, but I understand it. It'd be like if professional sports teams just started playing stupidly when they knew they couldn't get to the play offs. Everyone would be pissed and some sort of punishment would be dealt out. It's the same thing. People was to see competition, they want a player who is competitive and wants to win no matter what. Naniwa did not show that. (I still like Naniwa I just understand both sides)
Not only this but in most NA professional sports their is actually rewards for having a worse finish but the players still go out to play and try to entertain the fans.
The ignorance.... Making...Ears...Bleed.
Yeah pro athletes always give 100% effort. Did someone really compare what Nani did to Tiger Woods defecating on a course while on live TV. Because that not only breaks multiple rules, its actually breaking multiple laws. TL'ers say the darndest things.
Hey, cultural differences man. Maybe some people don't have those laws! But what matters is it would be a retarded thing to do anyway... See the parallel?
gsl is trying to be a professional e-sports organization but they are unable to properly judge the situation at all
1.the culture of naniwa is not like their own and if they give him a seed in the first place they kinda have to respect that 2.the game didnt matter at all 3.korean players have thrown games before and didnt get punished for it (hero for example) 4.mma doing a hadouken or mc doing the thumbs down is designed to offend the opponent and they dont get banned for it
On December 15 2011 00:02 Evolutia wrote: Do any of you even watch sports? Even if a team is out of a tournament or about to get relegated to a lower league like in the English premier league (football) they still have to play their best.
Teams face huge fines and point deductions if they decide to simply play their worst players because the games don't really matter etc.
Stop being so stupid and realise that you can't throw games even if they don't matter. You have to always play your best, always. That's sports.
You're right, teams never do stuff like not play their starters at the end of a season cause the game doesn't matter when they've already clinched a spot in the playoffs or actively throw games at the end of a season to get a better draft pick, those types of things are totally unheard of in pro sports! Just cause people don't do it as obviously generally doesn't mean stuff like this doesn't happen every year in pro sports when the games don't matter any more.
On December 15 2011 00:04 sVnteen wrote: gsl is trying to be a professional e-sports organization but they are unable to properly judge the situation at all
1.the culture of naniwa is not like their own and if they give him a seed in the first place they kinda have to respect that 2.the game didnt matter at all 3.korean players have thrown games before and didnt get punished for it (hero for example) 4.mma doing a hadouken or mc doing the thumbs down is designed to offend the opponent and they dont get banned for it
sorry for bad english
Hadouken was just meant to entertain the audience I think.
EPT
