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On December 14 2011 16:34 doko100 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:30 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 16:20 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 16:03 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:51 doko100 wrote:On December 14 2011 15:46 BeeNu wrote:On December 14 2011 15:31 HikariPrime wrote:On December 14 2011 15:12 BeeNu wrote:
Ok I want to shed some light on perspective of how some races view Terran, I play Zerg at masters and Protoss at about diamond level so far, been playing Protoss a lot more lately because it's a lot more relaxing and "easier" than playing Zerg. You know how there is that stereotype of Zergs being angry all the time? Well it's true, playing Zerg is a good way to give yourself an ulcer.
This is a somewhat long rant but just hear me out and please, correct me if I'm wrong on anything here because I've only been really playing Protoss for a couple weeks.
But look here, I personally hate Terran, I don't necessarily hate Terran players just how the race works in general and I'm hating Terran a fair bit more from the Protoss side rather than the Zerg side. Mostly right now I'm hating Terran because it feels like Bio basically beats every single thing that Protoss has except for Colossus and Storm, and once you do have Coloss or Storm out it's just falls on the Terran's shoulders to properly balance their composition to include Vikings or Ghosts. Idk, I've had too many games so far where I have a bigger army, better econ, better upgrades, yet I lose because the Terran simply has Marines Marauders and Medivacs and I'm left scratching my head as to why a Gateway/Immortal composition still seems to get absolutely crushed and barely scratches his army which seems completely inferior on paper....then I remember "oh right, I didn't have Colossus or Storm which means I auto lose any engagement. Now, I know Chargelots are good, but it seems to me that they can be rather easily beaten by any Terran who turtles behind a wall, similar to how Ultralisks are useless if you actually try to attack into a defense, and they basically don't do a damn thing to Planetary Fortresses meaning Terran can sit back and macro and tech. Here is where it also gets frustrating, if the Terran sits back and maxes then your Chargelots are losing value since a lot of their strength comes from having an armor upgrade advantage, once Terran goes into late game and catches up in upgrades you might as well just have regular old zealots that just melt. On top of all that you got Terran who can just go 1-1-1 if he feels like it and even if I know it's coming and perform a build that supposedly "counters" 1-1-1 those kinds of builds still only seem to have like a 50% chance of actually working.
Maybe I should just be turtling really hard until I max out like I saw somebody else here mention? Cuz quite frankly I can't find any other semi-reliable way to win other than all-inning.
Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Terran is easy to play, their micro and macro is hard but it all feels fundamentally broken and it also feels like it has a much higher level of potential and flexibility. Pretty much any time I get beaten by a Terran I don't end up coming away from the game not thinking "oh wow that guy was good he played really really well" no, I usually end up seeing it was "this was stupid, I had every advantage I could have imagined and they still won because their race is a joke" which isn't how I want to feel, and I've never really felt that way about Protoss or Zerg. I don't want to hold this against Terran players, but at the same time I don't ever really respect any of them either as a result. About the only time I find myself respecting Terran players is when I'm watching them outmaneuver each other in a TvT. Alright i read this post and im thinking if you have played terran yet... I'm master all races and it took me considerable time to get to masters as terran where as zerg i felt comfortable with the amount of time it took for me to get there, i got to masters toss in about a week after placing straight into diamond. You say you have no idea on how to win as toss other than all in or turtle till three base.. well yeah.. thats kind of how everyone plays that race. Terran has the best overall unit design, but to be able to effectively utilize all this requires a great deal amount of multi-tasking greater than the other races imo. Just from my experience this is how i feel. Protoss was relatively easy, Zerg was the mid-ground, and terran was the hardest for me, Terran can be really good ( look at mvp ) you just have to have a really high amount of skill to abuse all the little things terran can do. I like to play Terran mostly though as i try to get better doing these amount of things. Edit: Oh and i hate toss ~_~ only reason i played that race was to prove to my friends it wouldn't take much to get to masters. For months protoss 4 gated in every match-up and won and still do with different variants.Now they either X amount of gate all in or they turtle till max and fully upped and it works for the most part. So im kind of biased against toss. Don't flame ~ Edit #2 : To the OP, on all my accounts ive noticed that the top ten players in my divisions are all protoss/zergs maybe one to two terrans at most. I have played Terran a bit but not all that much. My biggest deterrent to playing Terran is I just hate the time and energy required to play out a TvT match, cuz quite frankly I really just don't enjoy playing mirror matchups at all. Like, I can play a standard PvP pretty well but 80% of the time I just cannon rush because I want it to be over with quickly and there is no real alternative like that which I know of that can be used in TvT. I was originally going to switch from Zerg to Terran but after a few TvT I was just like "fuck this". See, now you say that Protoss just turtles or all-inns every game to win? Idk, maaaaybe, I haven't really had to absolutely rely on that kind of play vs Protoss or Zerg but idk if that's the only way to beat Terran that sounds pretty disheartening to me. Oh please, there is just so much protoss can do against terran. You can go for a macro game, you can go for 1 base all-ins, 2 base all-ins. You can go gateway/collossus, zealot/archon, lategame you can go archon, zealot, stalker, collossus, archon, HT and the terran can either 1/1/1 or go pure bio EVERY GAME. Terran has like 2 options in TvP, all-in or play a macro game with the same unit composition every game, you think protoss is disheartening to play in TvP? Try terran. Yes, I am aware Terran only has like 1-1-1 all-in or just Bio Bio Bio and it isn't particularly fun, but both of those things are also incredibly strong and everything Protoss does is just trying to figure out how to deal with those 2 things. So basically in the TvP matchup you're just seeing 1-1-1 and Bio every game every time and I find it ridiculous because I don't think those options should be as strong as they are and Terran should be able to and be required to use a broader array of units and strategies. This is kinda what I meant by saying I feel Terran is fundamentally flawed. I hope that helps clear that up a bit. And like I said before I was playing Terran for a while before I started playing Protoss and it felt kinda stupid. It's like, ok, all I gotta do is make Bio and have good macro and I can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at me as long as I do a minimal amount of scouting and know when to add in some Vikings or Ghosts. Dude are you serious? TvP is heavily Protoss favored outside of pro level play, in diamond/masters TvP is like a protoss win-fest. How does Protoss deal with 1-1-1 and Bio? 1-1-1 has been figured out weeks ago, it's not even the build that is good anymore it's pretty much only effective if the protoss doesn't scout and counter it accordingly. Second of all, Bio is too strong? I hope you realize that controlling a bio army is about 3 times harder than controlling a protoss deathball, that's part of the reason why protoss is dominating terran in the leagues below grandmaster so hard. And terran should use other builds? Hang on a second buddy, we tried, we incorporated Thors into our bio armies, wanna know what happened? Oh yes, they immediately got nerfed by Blizzard. Don't blame it on terran player that we can't use anything else but Bio? Do you think it's fun for us to fight an uphill battle with weaker units and no splash against an army with alot of splash damage that is easier to control? No it isn't, but it's the only option. And you can crush pretty much everything the Protoss throws at you with bio? You have to be kidding, again Protoss is heavily favored in TvP, how can you come to the conclusion that it's easier for the terran at all. Terran has less effective builds and options in TvP compared to Protoss, so what exactly is your problem? You are complaining that Protoss only has 20 different options in TvP, whilst Terran has like what 2 or 3? Please just stop. I feel like you didn't even read what I said and just wrote. :/ I didn't say Terran should try using other builds, I said Terran should be given more options in TvP and Bio itself shouldn't be so absolute. People have "figured out" 1-1-1? lol ok. That's news to me...and pretty much everybody since last time I checked everybody from progamers to common gamers still get wrecked by it rather consistently. Your little comment of "just stop" pretty much just reinforces the vibe I get that you're just an incredibly biased and angry Terran player looking for an excuse to QQ about your race. Try carrying a constructive discussion next time instead of taking it so personally and acting like someone just stomped on your dog's head. So after we have established the fact that TvP is protoss favored outside of GM you just resort to a random ad hominem attack? Ok, I'm done with you. As a zerg player you shouldn't even have an opinion about TvP in the first place. Terrans don't talk about PvZ either, simply because our understanding of the matchup isn't high enough. All my points were logical and true, you can choose to ignore all my points I have made about viability of different builds and just claim that I am 'mad. But it doesn't make it any less true. Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 16:29 hunts wrote:On December 14 2011 16:22 malaan wrote:On December 14 2011 14:37 zanmat0 wrote:
Wow the Terran whinning in this thread is pathetic. If you're going to claim Terran is UP (which is absolutely is not), at least try to provide some evidence. as I said to someone else earlier in the thread - if you dont play terran, refrain from making comments like this because A) its untrue and B) Its unfair. The general theme of the thread is that Terran is not 'under powered' it is just that you have to do much more as Terran than the other races to win. Engagement is far more crucial to Terran than other races which, is in most situations, making Terran too hard to play for most. And every toss player will tell you that you have to do much more as toss than the other races to win, and every zerg will tell you that you have to do much more as zerg than the other races to win. I'm sorry but just because you say it doesn't make it true, because if it did every race would be OP, UP, broken, the easiest and the hardest all at the same time. Unless you can show concrete proof as to WHY a certain race is harder to play than another, please refrain from making such silly statements, because everyone thinks their race is the hardest to play and the other 2 are the easiest. I have never heard a protoss player claim that their race is the mechanically most demanding. It's actually universally accepted that protoss is the one race you can play at higher levels (diamond, masters) with really bad mechanics. What's most important as protoss is mimicing builds, but that's not exactly what I would classify as hard to play.
Dude what's your problem? You aren't raising "valid" or "logical" points you're just spouting off irrelevant information and getting mad about absolutely nothing. I don't get to talk about PvT because I've played Zerg more than Protoss? Wow, I don't even know what to say to this kind of logic. Protoss absolutely dominate Terran below GM? Show me some concrete facts in that matter because otherwise I just think you're talking out of your ass and no, we have not "established this fact" at all, you saying something doesn't automatically make it true, in fact, the last graph that I saw seemed to show PvT as actually having rather even results, not Terran being completely crushed all the time by Protoss like you seem to think is happening. You haven't provided any facts to back up what you are saying and most of it looks completely baseless and incredibly biased and I honestly think you have no real argument and are just arguing for the sake of complaining. If you even bothered to read what I said previously you would realize I did indeed mention the viability of builds, you just choose to ignore what I say and keep acting hostile over nothing. Somebody really must have pissed in your oatmeal or something.
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Is that so? Pretty cool, never liked tvt very much.
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Terran here.
I really like this.
I hate TvT so it's really cool that I can dodge this MU more often.
Anyway, I can't switch race.
Protoss feels too boring and Zerg vs. Protoss isn't cool to play.
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Honestly, its because they are all switched to protoss right now. I have in fact come up against many toss lately (im a T) and since the matchup is balls-out hard, I generally rage when I lose... About a third of them have said that they used to be terran and switched because protoss is so much easier to play.
I still can't believe everyone is saying that terran is OP, they have not gotten a buff in any patch and combined with the intense mechanics and RIDICULOUS apm required to play the race, they are losing many followers. It's sad but I'm sticking with them even if it means that I stay in plat league. I 100% agree that protoss dominates in plat and diamond, even some masters leagues. Those terrans dont have the extremely advanced understanding of the game and usually lack the necessary multitasking required to beat a toss. I'm not talking about making a rine and a SCV at the same time either, I'm talking about making all those things at the same time while constantly positioning your army, stutter stepping, dropping mineral lines, laying down EMP's, and expanding.... while toss has to simply a-move and keep his colossi on a hotkey in the back of the army.
There is a great reason for all of you who are curious. If you require any more proof, try playing as a terran for a few games, u will understand why very quickly after that.
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On December 14 2011 22:15 CaptainCrush wrote:
Honestly, its because they are all switched to protoss right now. I have in fact come up against many toss lately (im a T) and since the matchup is balls-out hard, I generally rage when I lose... About a third of them have said that they used to be terran and switched because protoss is so much easier to play.
I still can't believe everyone is saying that terran is OP, they have not gotten a buff in any patch and combined with the intense mechanics and RIDICULOUS apm required to play the race, they are losing many followers. It's sad but I'm sticking with them even if it means that I stay in plat league. I 100% agree that protoss dominates in plat and diamond, even some masters leagues. Those terrans dont have the extremely advanced understanding of the game and usually lack the necessary multitasking required to beat a toss. I'm not talking about making a rine and a SCV at the same time either, I'm talking about making all those things at the same time while constantly positioning your army, stutter stepping, dropping mineral lines, laying down EMP's, and expanding.... while toss has to simply a-move and keep his colossi on a hotkey in the back of the army.
There is a great reason for all of you who are curious. If you require any more proof, try playing as a terran for a few games, u will understand why very quickly after that.
This. Stop hating if you haven't played terran normally. I played all 3 races before and i changed to zerg because terran is too difficult and protoss is too boring.
Try playing macro games as terran for once. Your best options as terran is usually early aggression/cheese but guess what, everyone in the community will slam you for choosing the easy option to win. There's really no point trying to play terran now.
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After 1 1/2 years it has finally happened my fellow SCII fans.
We have a terran tears thread.
Victory is near my friends.
edit:
only a joke obv to be clear.
I can imagine that terran is hard to play in the lower leagues.
But for masters and higher Terran is fine, good micro is a MUST to play terran tho.
It kinda sucks yeh.. but we want a competitive game so it should be balanced for that level.
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Terran is boring to play, constantly keeps getting nerfed due to how good they are at pro level, despite hardly being imbalanced in lower leagues where most people play, and they've always had a bad reputation because of that I guess.
On December 14 2011 22:24 Jakkerr wrote:
After 1 1/2 years it has finally happened my fellow SCII fans.
We have a terran tears thread.
Victory is near my friends.
I guess that's one way to see it 
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I stopped playing because I hate TvP at masters. Will wait for the warhound in HotS so I don't have to use the shit unit comp that is bio + vikings.
I'll start playing again if they would let you choose the matchups you hit on ladder though. Because I LOVE TvZ / TvT. Tanks and hellions ftw!
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It's simply a metagame shift. You'll see more terrans pop up once they're able to deal with the nerfs. For everyone claiming terran is that much harder, of course it's going to be harder for lower league players who relied on gimmicky and overpowered strategies for quite some time. Sure, terran is tough, but we saw this back around November when zerg players were finally starting to even out the matchup and plenty of terrans fell into obscurity because they couldn't keep up.
For my sake I hope terrans learn quick, I play like 80% zvz in masters and it's driving me insane.
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Now here is a thread that reeks of hidden (and less hidden) balance whine. It's almost as bas as "the sad zealot fan club".
edit. To answer the question: I went from random to Z instead of T because I hate TvT and as Z all matchups are fun.
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Terran complaints always make me of 1st World Problems.
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You can only lose so many mid to lategame TvPs versus people who seem to barely micro before it comes too much to bare. Personally I've devolved to using all-in tactics every single time I get matched vs Protoss so that I can continue to play Terran without being too frustrated. That combined with the continual stream of nerfs (or thats how its perceived) can be pretty disheartening. On the rare occasions when you win a 30min bio TvP purely due to control and multitasking alone, being met with "lol Terran" rather than a "gg" in the face of current TLPD TvP (and it is surely more Protoss favored just below the GSL level) win rates is disappointing to say the least. I just really wish Protoss players would get this notion out of their head that Terran is somehow overpowered (even now) in TvP, its infuriating.
TvZ is the saving grace of Terran for me at the moment, it feels like a proper matchup. TvT is also the most robust mirror matchup from the looks of things, although it can be a bit of a chore at times. If mech was a viable TvP composition and the matchup was equal, then things would be absolutely glorious. Hopefully HoTS will iron out some of the problems with mech and give Terran players more ways to play the game. I certainly wish I could play more mech (and sky Terran vs Protoss) without feeling heavily disadvantaged.
I also feel this general consensus that Terran is overpowered doesn't help things. People are constantly having this "GomTvT" and so on shoved in their face and being told they're only winning because of their race. How can a lower league Terran player be motivated when the general opinion is they have an advantage in all their matchups based on some Korean winrates and the volume of code S Terrans? Perhaps you're playing in diamond league and your opponents are giving you no respect and crediting your wins due to "Terran imbalance". Perhaps you're struggling in TvP when everyone is telling you it should be a freewin based on what some Koreans did a few months ago? Below the elite level Terrans are struggling and they're being judged based on going-ons at the pro level, its enough to make anyone jump ship.
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Ha i love playing the underrepresented race!
Im a master terran and i can understand that so many say terran is very hard. This is especially true for low leagues gold under (maybe plat too?). Its because these players wont have the micro to be constantly costefficient with marines vs baneling/ling or marine marauder vs chargelot,archon/colossi. Marine splitting and stutter stepping from the middle of the map back to your base is simply not comparable to an a-move.
However I think at very high level Terran has just the same potential as the other races. Maybe even bigger potential (watch the automaton 200 vods on youtube and youll know what i mean). In rts games I always play the race where I think you can do some godly micro to become a legend^^. In broodwar I played Zerg because I loved Jaedongs muta micro and tried to emulate him. In SC2 early days i saw Nada marine splitting and switched to terran because i thought if i train this and do it perfectly I will win every game. Of yourse I can't do it perfectly by now but its for me just very statisfying to marine split, stutterstep and drop like a madman in order to win. Reminds me of the hard earned wins in my iccup days (34%winrate :S).
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Zurich15313 Posts
On December 14 2011 19:41 Vei wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 19:34 zatic wrote:
Guilty. I switched to Z because Terran was just way too fucking hard to play (and got boring). ZvT is the most ridiculous roflraping now. Terran seems to be just hopeless on low levels vs Zerg.
Still have no clue how to play against P though. what do you consider low levels
Anything below Masters. Maybe the Diamond / Master line is kind of blurry, but certainly anything mid Diamond and below.
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I just play random (mb 5 % random players in my diam division) to solve the problem, now THAT's what earns you hate from your opponents lol, especially cause it allows for unexpected cheese, but i see that as part of the game, although i used to rage a lot aswell when being cheesed.
I actually started to enjoy the bm, knowing that there is a thread here on TL in case it goes overboard, and sometimes it offers a good laugh.
This discussion however drifted into a skill requirement discussion for the different species, i think it deserves an own thread with a more systematic approach cause of the variety of points of view. Threads who look for definite outcomes should have an OP that constantly gets edited.
Gonna mention a few points nontheless:
-Terran macro isn't easy, especially concerning early stage buildorders where you have to manage add-ons efficiently, the order in which you build,tech and swap determines the builds effectiveness.
-The backbone units (not the ones designed for harassing) have the inability to retreat without taking significant damage from p and z units, who are faster or have the ability to keep you in place´, terran doesn't have any way of snaring enemy units, contrary to z (infestors, surrounds) and p (forcefields).
This makes for a very unforgiving army management.
-Especially for zerg it's forgiving to float minerals thanks to the larva mechanic, terrans have to keep the machinery well oiled or they will be behind in army at some point, protoss can make up for that by chronoboosting production facilities.
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Starting out playing T. Fucking hated TvT. Switched to Z. I'm betting others quit playing T solely due to gradual TvT aversion as well (not everyone, but some)
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Well I have played Terran since BW but recently I was thinking of switching to Zerg. I guess i had become disillusioned with the style of aggressive that terrans seem to have to play in todays metagame, I just wanted to macro hard and crush my opponent off 3 base. Zerg was appealing to me for this reason. Then I was watching some Thorzain reps and his super safe macro style focusing on upgrades and a well time 3rd base. I just fell in love with the terran race all over again. I just had to re examine my style and find one suited to me. I assume alot of Terran into Zergs have had a similar experience but commit to a full race change.
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stuck in platin after going from bronze to plat very fast...loosing to bad players with no control just hurts...i cant describe it too good..english is not my first language but..i cant play a macro game, i just die to late game P/Z ..i cant control like a MVP or jakji..thinking of quitting the game right now..i went from playing 15 games a day to 4-5 games a week  aint no fun anymore,,
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On December 14 2011 22:20 poorcloud wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:15 CaptainCrush wrote:
Honestly, its because they are all switched to protoss right now. I have in fact come up against many toss lately (im a T) and since the matchup is balls-out hard, I generally rage when I lose... About a third of them have said that they used to be terran and switched because protoss is so much easier to play.
I still can't believe everyone is saying that terran is OP, they have not gotten a buff in any patch and combined with the intense mechanics and RIDICULOUS apm required to play the race, they are losing many followers. It's sad but I'm sticking with them even if it means that I stay in plat league. I 100% agree that protoss dominates in plat and diamond, even some masters leagues. Those terrans dont have the extremely advanced understanding of the game and usually lack the necessary multitasking required to beat a toss. I'm not talking about making a rine and a SCV at the same time either, I'm talking about making all those things at the same time while constantly positioning your army, stutter stepping, dropping mineral lines, laying down EMP's, and expanding.... while toss has to simply a-move and keep his colossi on a hotkey in the back of the army.
There is a great reason for all of you who are curious. If you require any more proof, try playing as a terran for a few games, u will understand why very quickly after that. This. Stop hating if you haven't played terran normally. I played all 3 races before and i changed to zerg because terran is too difficult and protoss is too boring. Try playing macro games as terran for once. Your best options as terran is usually early aggression/cheese but guess what, everyone in the community will slam you for choosing the easy option to win. There's really no point trying to play terran now.
I've played purely macro games as T against my lower-rank (diamond/masters) clanmates. Do I get to hate now?
Your anecdotal evidence doesn't really count for much, because I could call up completely contrary viewpoints.
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On December 14 2011 10:34 Raambo11 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 10:23 Xova wrote:
I play Terran as masters, THIS IS MY OPINION AND NOTHING MORE! Remember that. I feel like Terran is the hardest race to play, ALTHOUGH I have never really played the other races myself, it is incredibly easy to get rolled over by protoss and completely out macro'd in the mid to later stages of the game by a zerg.
My two cents on the table, I think people get frusterated with Terran when they game goes past 20 minutes because Terran is less forgiving than say protoss. So they switch to a new race. Again that is my opinion. Yeah this is spot on. Terran has a VERY steep learning curve once you hit low diamond. All of a sudden you need to micro and multitask significantly more than at the lower levels to win games vs P and Z. As a result a lot of people switch. I myself was diamond and got so frustrated I switched to protoss for a while, but toss was too passive of a race for me so I swapped back. It is nice to see a topic of this nature, it really gets old having no variety on the ladder, I thought there were more terrans in master but this simply isn't the case, its mainly zerg. The reason is basically the game design and there won't be more terran on ladder until there is.
This is the main reason upwards Diamond. Once you hit a high enough level and do have the multitasking this becomes irrelevant(very high master/gm)(not for tvp lategame tho..., but you can kill protoss in the midgame if you have really solid builds). You can see by how terran has a good representation in GM. But I don't understand why terran is least played in silver/gold/plat?
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EPT
