On December 14 2011 11:10 poorcloud wrote: I switched to zerg because its disgustingly difficult to have the micro required to beat a zerg using terran in diamond. Plus my apm is really low, so i'm not always looking at my army, which makes it frustrating when my army disappears in 3 seconds.
Not to mention how TvP is a joke. Its my best matchup but i always win with timings off 2 base. The moment it gets to the late game, i will never win due to the deathball.
Zerg is much easier to play and macro. You do not have to babysit your army all the time and can focus on hitting those injects + scouting/checking the map.
Isn't it the other way round? If a terran army can disappear in 3 seconds, the zerg army can probably disappear in 2? All of the zerg units are so fragile and even a mismicro can mean that you lose half your army. How can it be easier to macro with zerg? With terran, you just hotkey the production facilities and remember to queue them and it's easy to do even during battles. For zerg, you have to base hop and inject to keep up with macro, forcing the zerg player to take his eyes off his fragile army.
Most of zerg units are fast. If you hear your army getting attacked, you just select it and run to your base and you lose very few units. Terran you can't. In TvZ you have to stay there in case of getting caught unsieged. And you have to siege and start splitting the moment YOU SEE THE ARMY. In TvP, if you just look away for a second, your army will get forcefielded + chased down.
So with zerg, you don't have to worry about your army so much and you can just focus on the macro. Maybe i shouldn't say the macro is easier. What i meant was that the macro was a lot more rewarding for the same amount of skill. Theres a low ceiling to the macroing for terran. But zerg, you can produce disgustingly huge amounts of army at 1 time. Heck, you can even miss production cycles since your larva stacks up. But as terran, once you miss that production cycle, your fucked and you have to waste lots of resources on other stuff since you never catch up.
Kinda absurb how you make it sound like a zerg player only needs to react after their units are being attacked. What league is this? If you react only after your army is attacked, you probably would have lost at least half of your roach army (The zerg army can get forcefielded too.) or 2/3 of your zergling count. Firstly, a zerg player cant even be caught unaware when the opponent moves out. If you only react after the opponent attacks on your army, he would be too near and it's almost already a win for them.
How about this? When the terran army is getting attacked, the tanks would have already taken out some of the opponent's army even before you react. Besides, you are continuously making your army as terran. So, you would hardly be caught with your pants down.
On December 14 2011 11:15 HypernovA wrote: Why have I stopped playing this game?
- I'm tired of having to work 2 or 3 times harder than most of my opponents (high diamond level).
- I'm tired of being flamed if I win because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of being called a bad player because I play Terran.
- I'm tired of people calling me a cheesy abuser if I use units like cloaked banshees, or hellions openings.
- I'm tired of people flaming Terran players who win tournaments in situations where clearly the Terran player was the superior player.
- I'm tired of receiving help answer like "LOL DUDE, MAKE MORE MARINES. Can't make more MMM against Protoss? Wow you suck."
There. I said it. The community is very negative toward Terran players in General and this has caused me to stop playing and only watch games.
I find it amazing and bewildering the difference between the SC2 community and the BW community. I played BW for 10 years and I can't recall a single time where someone berated me because of the race I play. I'm not sure what the deal is with these SC2 nerds, but it really starts to grate after a while.
I definitely think it's because of how mainstream SC2 has become compared to BW. That, and the fact that its easier to blame the other person for your loss rather than see what you did wrong, which I think is the wrong kind of mentality.
What. Terrrans raged at me for going dtrush/dtdrop all the time in bw.
On December 14 2011 11:41 Netsky wrote: Terran requires much more skill (both brain and mechanics) than the other races, therefore at lower level they are a far inferior. You have to micro your units and constantly harass and poke while macroing perfectly. You can't just sit in your base and max out to 200/200 and a-move across then map like you can with Protoss for example. It's not until professional level that you can see the balance start to even out a bit.
Wow I love your reasoning... requires more brain? wow
Agreed with a lot of people. Even if terran was OP in the past, getting only nerfs hurts a lot of people's confidence. Not everyone plays at Korean code S level and everyone sits at around 50% win rate on ladder. Imagine a patch comes in and you start losing a bunch and maybe go down a league. Warranted or not, it's pretty discouraging.
Terran is still my favorite race though. Anyone who says it's boring isn't playing it right.
On December 14 2011 11:50 Luppy1 wrote: How about this? When the terran army is getting attacked, the tanks would have already taken out some of the opponent's army even before you react. Besides, you are continuously making your army as terran. So, you would hardly be caught with your pants down.
That is assuming the Terran is sieged in the first place... Which could harm him if there's a counter attack. Also, in an evenly matched game it is extremely important for the Terran to stay cost efficient throughout the game, so the fact that Terran has constant unit production isn't really a good argument. If you lose too much of an army you'll either get overrun quickly or your opponent can power like crazy and you'll have a hard time punishing it without a substantial army.
On December 14 2011 11:38 Supamang wrote: Finally, we have a Terran tears thread.
Its been Zerg tears from the very beginning of beta till recently it was more about Protoss tears. Now Terran has joined in as well. Lets all just cry about how we all have to work "2 or 3 times harder than other races just to stand a chance". I think Ive heard that line said for all 3 races now and its kind of tiring.
Im tempted to switch back to Terran just to see if its as hard as people in this thread make it out to be. I switched from Terran to Zerg because of the same whiny crap that was going on all over the SC2 community, just to see how "hard" it was for Zerg players.
Honestly I think people just need to figure things out. There have been countless examples of people bitching and moaning about how impossible things are for a certain race just to have some top level pros figure out some nuances that cause them to be dominant. Then some other race starts bitching about the exact same shit. Don't people ever learn?
Please do it. Make a thread about how things are going and post replays, me and I'm sure a lot of other players would be delighted
There isn't anything that needs to be "figured out". Its not like protoss or zerg is doing some crazy build or playstyles that us lower lvl terrans just can't deal with. It is the fact that when everything is equal or terran favored before and engagement, we just lose because of our lacking control. I hate to be the "herp they just do derp then dey win" kid, but really, zerg is pre-split then a-move and move command banelings onto marines or hit fungals (add on mutas picking tanks but that is actually the easiest thing in the world). Protoss is a-move then hit your forcefields - this isn't anything you need incredible speed or control with. Just don't completely botch it and you're good. Its mostly a theoretical thing. Do you have a lot of zealots and don't want to get kited? Lock the army in with forcefields. Then its storm-spamming, which isn't exactly hard. It requires some skill, I'm not saying it doesn't - but if you screw up to some degree it is not anywhere as near as how terrible it is for a terran player.
All of my friends who played starcraft have since resorted to just watch streams and GSL/MLG/Dreamhack etc, because they couldn't handle losing on ladder. Call it ladder fear or whatever, they just didn't have it in them to practice and get better. I am not one of those people. Every time someone whines about imbalance, I just say "well all races are presented equally on the top level, so its all about improving". I have clocked in a lot of hours in starcraft, when I lose I blame myself and review the replay, then play again. I am putting a lot of effort into getting good at this game. I'm not switching race because I know that if I get good enough I will smash the people I am losing to now.
That being said, I can't just overlook the fact that I am outplaying my opponents in all areas, but when the big battle happens, my terran army suffers so greatly from my lack of control that I just lose anyways. It is extremely disheartening. It doesn't matter that I have better control than my opponent, because that isn't how this sh#1 work. I need to outplay the protoss death ball, or the zerg swarm, not the player that I am playing. Because at my level, they are doing what is needed to properly control their army, while I am not.
This goes for a lot of Terran players. Isn't it weird that I can outplay my opponent in every aspect of the game, except the big engagements where everything matters? Do you think it is because we terran players have this thing where we can't execute simple micro, or is it because terran requires a higher level of control? I feel its quite obvious. The only games I win is where the zerg suicides his army needlessly in horrible engagements, while I do a good job of microing, or that the protoss is so extremely far behind (i.e bad) that I can smash him. If I can't get an enormous edge early in the game, unless he screws up then I will just lose unless I control my army to great effect. I just can't consistently control my army to the level that is required to win, and it is hindering my improvement in other areas. Don't even get me started on if the playing field is even before the engagement - the diamond (maybe master?) will lose this game.
I don't know that terran is "vanishing" more like evening out. But I think there will be even less Terrans when HotS hits.. Terran isn't really getting anything new compared to the other races.
It's just not fun, every matchup comes down to vikings. And the longer the game goes, worse it gets.
A) Made too few vikings, lost the game. B) Made too many vikings, lost the game. C) Made just the right amount of vikings for every engagement, might win the game.
On December 14 2011 11:10 poorcloud wrote: I switched to zerg because its disgustingly difficult to have the micro required to beat a zerg using terran in diamond. Plus my apm is really low, so i'm not always looking at my army, which makes it frustrating when my army disappears in 3 seconds.
Not to mention how TvP is a joke. Its my best matchup but i always win with timings off 2 base. The moment it gets to the late game, i will never win due to the deathball.
Zerg is much easier to play and macro. You do not have to babysit your army all the time and can focus on hitting those injects + scouting/checking the map.
Isn't it the other way round? If a terran army can disappear in 3 seconds, the zerg army can probably disappear in 2? All of the zerg units are so fragile and even a mismicro can mean that you lose half your army. How can it be easier to macro with zerg? With terran, you just hotkey the production facilities and remember to queue them and it's easy to do even during battles. For zerg, you have to base hop and inject to keep up with macro, forcing the zerg player to take his eyes off his fragile army.
Most of zerg units are fast. If you hear your army getting attacked, you just select it and run to your base and you lose very few units. Terran you can't. In TvZ you have to stay there in case of getting caught unsieged. And you have to siege and start splitting the moment YOU SEE THE ARMY. In TvP, if you just look away for a second, your army will get forcefielded + chased down.
So with zerg, you don't have to worry about your army so much and you can just focus on the macro. Maybe i shouldn't say the macro is easier. What i meant was that the macro was a lot more rewarding for the same amount of skill. Theres a low ceiling to the macroing for terran. But zerg, you can produce disgustingly huge amounts of army at 1 time. Heck, you can even miss production cycles since your larva stacks up. But as terran, once you miss that production cycle, your fucked and you have to waste lots of resources on other stuff since you never catch up.
Kinda absurb how you make it sound like a zerg player only needs to react after their units are being attacked. What league is this? If you react only after your army is attacked, you probably would have lost at least half of your roach army (The zerg army can get forcefielded too.) or 2/3 of your zergling count. Firstly, a zerg player cant even be caught unaware when the opponent moves out. If you only react after the opponent attacks on your army, he would be too near and it's almost already a win for them.
How about this? When the terran army is getting attacked, the tanks would have already taken out some of the opponent's army even before you react. Besides, you are continuously making your army as terran. So, you would hardly be caught with your pants down.
I play in diamond. And yes, i'm not saying zerg units don't get caught out of position and all just die. But they have the easiest time getting away compared to other races. I know you probably think that zerg is underpowered since you play it all the time so its difficult to convince you so i can only hope you try out terran and try to go macro games against zerg. Maybe you will be better with terran, but i assure you most players at diamond level onwards are better off with zerg.
Whenever I try playing terran I just get bored and want to do something else. I don't know why as I find protoss fun and zerg can be fun. I guess many people watching pro tournaments think that zerg is easy so they switch protoss actually is easy
there's been less terrans these days, you got to pick the right unit combinations or else you get rolled over by the swarm/protoss . Maybe terran is harder atm to play? doesnt matter for me i keep playing them!
On December 14 2011 10:46 Kharnage wrote: Can someone list the big pile of nerfs that killed terran for me?
The ones i know of:
blue flame damage reduction (-5 damage to light) rax build time (+5 secs) emp radius nerf (-0.5 radius)
None of these seem too terrible... are there any others?
1) done for TVT and hellion can 2 shot workers with +1 attack with BF 2) done to make 2 rax less strong 3) EMP was just crazy, now it has the same radius as storm
Terran, on a unit to unit basis, always felt more contrived than the other two races. Every unit had a role and there was nothing unique or interesting I could do with the unit.
That's why I switched to P. Perhaps not "right" but that's just the feeling I had and the reason I swapped races. Being "creative" with Terran doesn't feel as creative.
I play Terran and Zerg at the same level and I don't find Terran significantly harder :/ maybe it is just me.
As Terran you have to focus on your army a lot more and engagements need to favour you, which requires a lot of apm to micro and position your army etc while at the same time macroing. While Zerg definately is not required to micro as hard in an engagement, there is still a ton of stuff happening and it is not as simple as 'Zerg doesn't have to micro as hard as Terran, therefore its harder at master level'
If Terran drops in two locations while pushing out, Zerg has to respond to both drops, counterattack if possible, then regroup in time to engage before Terran has established an inpregnable position. And still larvae inject. Terran has to control two drops, push across the map scanning for burrowed banelings, get into position before being flanked and destroyed, and deal with any counterattacks. And still build shit.
What race has it harder? Neither.
I disagree that any trend towards fewer Terrans is simply because the race is more difficult, having played both races. This is of course just personal opinion though
- The game is balanced for top level Koreans. Terran becomes incredibly hard at lower levels compared to mostly Protoss players at the same true skill level. This is not something new, it was the same in BW.
- Boring/bland design. Zerg turned out the be the best designed race in WoL. Hence, people switch to Zerg, OR, they quit.
- Nerfs. Most players are casuals, they do not like nerfs. Terran kept being nerfed over and over. Casuals do not enjoy that, so they quit.
I started off playing Zerg and offraced as Protoss for the longest time. I've been trying Terran out recently and there's a couple of things about the race that I think might hinder its staying power (for me at least).
Simply, I just find the mechanics of Z and P to be more... satisfying than T's. Both chrono boosts and larva injects are not limited strictly to economy; they're both more 'active' functions, if you will, which have a more universal applicability than MULEs do (mulebombing siege lines is pretty fun though ^_^). But even in their economic uses, I'd rather have a round of drones pumped out/queue of probes rushed out than just spam X on mineral patches every so often. This is a significant part of the reason I don't really mass game as T... it just gets sort of monotonous. So I agree with everyone who said that T is somewhat one-dimensional.
Similarly, I'm finding that what I really like about Terran is just the insane damage output from scary armies/reliance on tactical improv. It feels cool to hit some really awesome timings where everything syncs up and you just fucking roll through everything; playing standard isn't anywhere near as enjoyable for me. Because of all this, I don't think I could sustain playing T over a period of months.
Basically, I guess I'm saying T in its current state can be more straight up 'fun,' but it gets old quicker than the other races. Also TvT can be the most tedious match up (or best).
Terran feels more difficult to play at a lower level. Even tho they are MORE then capable of winning their share of games, its more difficult to beat a protoss or a zerg in the macro game because:
1) IMHO, terran macro is the hardest. While you are able to que units in your production facilities, and other races don't have that luxury (larvae, wg), i feel that Terran macro requires more apm. You have to constantly tab between 4 production facilities (cc, rax, fact, sp) to keep up your macro. When i bought my offrace account and started learning T and Z, whilst it took me around 50 wins with zerg to keep up with my production and my injects, it took me well into 150 wins (and my w/l ratio was actually negative with T, to keep my macro somewhat decent. I would always focus on a drop and not micro, focus on pushing with tanks and not macroing, or something like that.
2) Terran is hardest to play in a macro game. Terran, whilst being certainly competent in this regard, is much more tempo based then both protoss and zerg. Since protoss and zerg have the most efficient to manage lategame "1a" armies, often times since lower players don't have the necessary control to keep up with their counterparts, they fall apart to the toss colo storm gateway deathball, or absurd production of the zergy.
3) Server metagame. In NA, it seems everyone only thinks that you will win if you engage in a 200/200 fight with like 4k bank. The mindset of "I will improve ONLY if i can win in the late game" is a flawed one, IMHO the best way to improve is with aggressive playstyle to refine mechanics, and keep your opponent under pressure, which is the generally perceived Korean way of playing the game. This aggressive style fits best with the Terran race, and the passive style fits worst. This is why i see less Terrans on NA then I do in KR.
On December 14 2011 10:23 Steveling wrote: Terran was too hard for my limited time of play, I switched to Z. Oh and I happen to like all match ups as Z, while I hated TvT from my guts.
wait what ? If terran is o hard for you .. you think you will be playing better by chosing zerg ? Yes yes i know what ppl says.. zerg i A move rase.. its stupid , if someone says that he never play terran.
Zerg is the most mutitasking rase in the game.. one miss larva inject make that you lose a game. Units are weak so you need good position for fight , you always need +1 expo then your opponent to go late game.. etc etc But you are right , terran is hard to , if you start using other units then marines ...
btw i hate ends of seasons in sc2.. every one make only chesse build.. or allin's:/ Im so sad today have like 4 wins 10-13 losses :/
EPT
