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Kamikiri
United States1319 Posts
"because ya'll got so upset we must have struck a nerve." He just basically said I am sorry, but you are in the wrong. Shouldn't really call the second video an apology because it seems passive aggressive but whatever, I only was upset initially because I don't like my community being insulted. That being said, I don't have a problem with the halo community or their game, I don't like watching halo but I don't mind it. | ||
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Zion9
Romania347 Posts
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jaerak
United States124 Posts
Their intent may have been to generate pride within the Halo community, but obviously their decision had the opposite effect. If any figure of the SC2 community came out to bash another gaming community, I would feel shame and anger for being part of such a group. If you truly want to better your community, fully own up to your mistakes and show a model of responsibility. Be it console or PC, professional or casual, gamers support other gamers, simple as that. | ||
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Big.E33
United States27 Posts
On December 07 2011 02:47 Zion9 wrote: I really hope this whole thing is just a joke and trolling. No offence for the Halo players but Halo is by far the midget of FPS eSports. Maybe in USA its more hyped but, CS, Quake, CoD series are way way way ahead ! CoD may sell a billion copies but it will never be successful long term as an Esport because the game has no competitive merit | ||
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Zion9
Romania347 Posts
On December 07 2011 02:59 Big.E33 wrote: CoD may sell a billion copies but it will never be successful long term as an Esport because the game has no competitive merit I can absolutely agree here with you. But as a community it is way bigger then Halo or any console community. In my opinion (as a past Cod player) CoD requires less skill then CS or Quake mostly because of one single fact. Crosshair was removed. And this goes for every new FPS game. The game may look fancy but its not that good without a crosshair. And yes, Activision is the one who killed the CoD series by focusing more on sales and casual players instead of pro/competitive gaming. | ||
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ETAnomaly
5 Posts
I would like to point out one thing clearly, you keep talking about these guys as like icons of Halo and faces of halo and that is 100% not true what so ever. Ghandi is the only person up there that I even associate Halo with, Nexy has been a good member of the MLG community for a long time, Dmaq on the other hand while working for MLG I have never seen him really do anything note worthy and I honestly think every time he opens his mouth that MLG could easily find someone better to do what he does. Now with that said these people are not the face and voice of Halo AT ALL! You are talking about them as if they were Day 9, Tastetosis, Idra, MVP, Nestea, HuK etc. When these guys besides Ghandi are more like Rotterdam, and VVV Titan. Yes some people may know them but they are not faces of SC and unless you really focus and watch all the tournaments and all the streams you wouldn't even know who these people are. OGRE 1, OGRE 2, Walshy, T2, Roy, Shockwav3, Lunchbox, Pistola, Legit, Naded these are people who have been around forever these are players with success, some of them now work for MLG and commentate like Shockwav3. Do not associate Halo with these people. Halo has dropped off quick, Halo 3 and Halo Reach are terrible games that brought out a terrible community, but Halo: CE and Halo 2 were great games that a lot of us joined MLG with, and when no one else was playing Halo MLG took it and blew it up into something that was covered by ESPN 3 with tons and tons of viewers, Halo had a show on G4, and USA network before that. You can dismiss Halo all you want because most people on this site are PC players, but Halo used to take a ridiculous amount of skill and teamwork and to dismiss this game and say its nothing compared to Quake or CS or the likes well that just ignorant. Those games may have big followings in Europe and what not, but none of them were played on network television in the United States like Halo was, none of those games were covered by ESPN and were on the ESPN ticker. What these people said was not that bad, its not something to bow your chest out over and draw a line in the sand and say "We will not take this Halo community" it is not a big deal they often, often talk about the good things about SC and the community. Yes they said a stupid statement but don't just say well thats Halo kids for you because these are not the face of Halo, and they have a game that is dying, and a piss poor community so you need to sympathize with them a little bit. They are trying to keep Halo alive and make it sustainable again, they didn't realize what they did was going to backfire and hurt the game more then it helped, because honestly it was such a small jab it shouldn't even be taken that way. TLDR: These are not the faces of Halo, besides Ghandi they are no bigger then SC semi pro or Rotterdam or some other small caster. They took a jab at SC in a joking manner, and everyone took it the wrong way and blew it out of proportion. Halo is dying they are trying to keep it alive and they want to model it after SC. SC community needs to grow up and forget this even happened because its irrelevant. | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
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Big.E33
United States27 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:48 Twistacles wrote: This just seems silly. They should be happy Halo got any recognition AT ALL as a competitive sport, since it, and console games in general, are a farce. If we compare it to CS, Quake, UT2k... Halo looks like barbie pony adventures. you should try to be more ignorant the next time you post, I bet you cant do it In all seriousness as Acklete said Halo CE and Halo 2 were the peak of competitive halo and if you have never played them at a remotely high level then you cannot speak of its competitive merit when compared to PC shooters | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On December 07 2011 04:01 ETAnomaly wrote: You can dismiss Halo all you want because most people on this site are PC players, but Halo used to take a ridiculous amount of skill and teamwork and to dismiss this game and say its nothing compared to Quake or CS or the likes well that just ignorant. Those games may have big followings in Europe and what not, but none of them were played on network television in the United States like Halo was, none of those games were covered by ESPN and were on the ESPN ticker. The success that the Halo franchise once had in the United States isn't related to how it compares to other competitive shooters. The fact remains that Halo skill is "capped" FAR lower than Quake or Counter-Strike. That can't be argued. It's simple mechanics. It's like comparing Starcraft PC and Starcraft N64. Just like no one can have 300 meaningful APM with a game pad, the Quake and Counter-Strike players will always have developed their aim and movement more because the hardware and interface allows for it to happen. Was Halo a great game? Yes. Was it fun to watch? At times, yes. Will it ever be in the same league as Quake and Counter-Strike as far as esports goes? No. And as you mentioned, now the franchise is going in the wrong direction and attracting the wrong crowd. EDIT: No, I haven't played Halo competitively besides local tournaments with friends when Halo / Halo 2 were big. The main point of this post was to comment on the skill ranges of each game and why Halo matches will never be as exciting as Quake, Counter-Strike, or SC2. | ||
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Big.E33
United States27 Posts
On December 07 2011 05:14 DarK[A] wrote: The success that the Halo franchise once had in the United States isn't related to how it compares to other competitive shooters. The fact remains that Halo skill is "capped" FAR lower than Quake or Counter-Strike. That can't be argued. It's simple mechanics. It's like comparing Starcraft PC and Starcraft N64. Just like no one can have 300 meaningful APM with a game pad, the Quake and Counter-Strike players will always have developed their aim and movement more because the hardware and interface allows for it to happen. Was Halo a great game? Yes. Was it fun to watch? At times, yes. Will it ever be in the same league as Quake and Counter-Strike as far as esports goes? No. And as you mentioned, now the franchise is going in the wrong direction and attracting the wrong crowd. EDIT: No, I haven't played Halo competitively besides local tournaments with friends when Halo / Halo 2 were big. The main point of this post was to comment on the skill ranges of each game and why Halo matches will never be as exciting as Quake, Counter-Strike, or SC2. I understand where you are coming from, but there was no 'limit' to how good you could be in halo CE or H2, and as far as it being as exciting to watch, reach and h3 are very dull and i would much rather watch SC2 but you saying they are more fun to watch is really just your opinion | ||
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injecti0n
United States9 Posts
I played Halo 2 a lot when MLG went through its first boom with that game. I played local tournaments and online games with MLG pros, but I didn't stay in the community for a very long time. From what I personally saw, the Halo players (mainly the big name pros) in the MLG scene didn't do a whole lot themselves to promote competitive gaming in general. I have seen videos (you may be able to find them) of players (who were largely at the time considered the best in the game) on the top teams at the time losing games in the Halo2 matchmaking system, and talking trash to their opponents the whole time about how they are MLG pros, and their opponents are garbage and should quit. When their opponents were winning. Sure, the SC2 scene has plenty of players like this. But when professionals in a game that draws as many casual players at high levels as Halo or CoD act like this, it turns people off to that scene. I know plenty of people considered MLG players to be stuck up, and have a "holier-than-thou" attitude when it game to the games for no reason other than that they played in the MLG because one or two people they met online acted like this. Things like that don't promote the pro scene, and they certainly don't encourage other people to watch something like the MLG in their free time. And unfortunately, the players that we see bashing the SC2 and professional PC gaming scene in general are wondering why SC2 is getting the major spotlight, and why their game isn't that big, but instead of looking for answers, they just continue to bash. Maybe my viewpoint is wrong here, and I am certainly aware that not all console pros have this mindset, but the ones that do unfortunately out-voice the ones that don't. | ||
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ETAnomaly
5 Posts
On December 07 2011 05:14 DarK[A] wrote: The success that the Halo franchise once had in the United States isn't related to how it compares to other competitive shooters. The fact remains that Halo skill is "capped" FAR lower than Quake or Counter-Strike. That can't be argued. It's simple mechanics. It's like comparing Starcraft PC and Starcraft N64. Just like no one can have 300 meaningful APM with a game pad, the Quake and Counter-Strike players will always have developed their aim and movement more because the hardware and interface allows for it to happen. Was Halo a great game? Yes. Was it fun to watch? At times, yes. Will it ever be in the same league as Quake and Counter-Strike as far as esports goes? No. And as you mentioned, now the franchise is going in the wrong direction and attracting the wrong crowd. EDIT: No, I haven't played Halo competitively besides local tournaments with friends when Halo / Halo 2 were big. The main point of this post was to comment on the skill ranges of each game and why Halo matches will never be as exciting as Quake, Counter-Strike, or SC2. That is hear say, as you said you have never played at that level so how would you know the level of skill that the game possessed and where the skill was capped? I can tell you that even 3 years of Halo 2 evolving at the professional level the game still had an evolving meta game and the skill level was still going up when they switched to Halo 3. Again this is PC dominated forum because we all play SC2 which is the PC platform. If you never played CS or Quake or Halo at the professional level its impossible to compare the skill that is required, with that said this is not the point of my post at all, my post was not about the skill required in halo My point of the entire post is that Dmaq and Nexy are the not faces of Halo, they are not spokesmen of halo and they should not be treated as such. Some people that work for MLG took a small jab at SC that was blown way out of proportion they praise the game far more then they put it down and we should all move past this because its stupid. We as an Esports community should support Halo and help them get back to what they were even if the game is not at the level it used to be. I am not going back to Halo but I support the community and I hope halo can resurrect itself and come back. The Halo community around today mostly came around with Halo 3 and Halo Reach and they are younger people and yes they can look ignorant, but they have a game they are passionate about like we are SC. Bungie ruined Halo that is not MLG or Halo communities fault? Esports needs all games to be successful, that is the only way we can set ourselves up long term, Esports needs to be recognized as real as professional sports are and we need all games for that, not just DOTA LoL and SC | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On December 07 2011 05:22 Big.E33 wrote: I understand where you are coming from, but there was no 'limit' to how good you could be in halo CE or H2, and as far as it being as exciting to watch, reach and h3 are very dull and i would much rather watch SC2 but you saying they are more fun to watch is really just your opinion Not sure whether I came across clearly in the first post. I'm saying that any console game inherently has a lower skill ceiling than a game played using a mouse and keyboard. It's not anything about Halo specifically, but rather the platform. Sure, some people are REALLY good at Halo, but there's little to no room for innovation comparatively. Other games, specifically stuff like Quake, CS, and SC (the "legends" of esports if you will) will always be more fun to watch because you get to see surprise results. There's more room for innovation and (legal) exploitation of in game events. It's difficult to explain unless you have enough background in each game to really understand what you're watching. EDIT: Maybe it is just me... I dunno... it's the same reason I can't enjoy watching basketball. When watching Halo, the only explanation the commentators could offer as to why an engagement played out a certain way was "because player A had bad aim". It's not because "player B outplayed him because he was able to do A, B, C, and D and player A thought he was doing E" | ||
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ETAnomaly
5 Posts
On December 07 2011 05:33 DarK[A] wrote: Not sure whether I came across clearly in the first post. I'm saying that any console game inherently has a lower skill ceiling than a game played using a mouse and keyboard. It's not anything about Halo specifically, but rather the platform. Sure, some people are REALLY good at Halo, but there's little to no room for innovation comparatively. Other games, specifically stuff like Quake, CS, and SC (the "legends" of esports if you will) will always be more fun to watch because you get to see surprise results. There's more room for innovation and (legal) exploitation of in game events. It's difficult to explain unless you have enough background in each game to really understand what you're watching. Why do these games have inherently higher skill gaps? and the exploitation of (legal) events in games have happened always in Halo such as the Backpack reload in Halo CE, and the BXR, RRX, and grenade reloading of Halo 2. If you took the top Quake player who only plays on PC and put him into an MLG match against a top Pro halo player they won't get a frag. If you put the top Halo player who never plays Quake he won't get a frag either. Just because you have bias towards PC games and claim they have higher skill ceilings does not mean that they do. This is something that simply can not be proved or even debated because you have nothing close to facts to support your claim. I think if anything can prove the skill gap of Halo its that the best Halo player of all time has 5 MLG national championships across 3 different halo games. He also is undefeated with his twin brother in 2v2 tournaments, I am talking about OGRE 2. Even though he pioneered competitive Halo he still not only competes but dominates against new players who got to grow up with competitive halo and watch him for years. He still dominates because Halo has a high skill ceiling. | ||
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Twistacles
Canada1327 Posts
On December 07 2011 05:00 Big.E33 wrote: you should try to be more ignorant the next time you post, I bet you cant do it In all seriousness as Acklete said Halo CE and Halo 2 were the peak of competitive halo and if you have never played them at a remotely high level then you cannot speak of its competitive merit when compared to PC shooters Okay, calling it a farce is harsh. Let me reword it. There is definitely a lot of skill involved. I won't dispute this. Perhaps it's my biased CS-competitive days, but I believe that the skill cap is inherently lower because of the physical limitations of a controller. It's a different KIND of skill-set, but I believe there's more room to GROW with the PC-model. It's not by some gargantuan margin like I made it seem, and I apologize, but it's still significant. | ||
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DarK[A]
United States217 Posts
On December 07 2011 05:41 ETAnomaly wrote: Why do these games have inherently higher skill gaps? and the exploitation of (legal) events in games have happened always in Halo such as the Backpack reload in Halo CE, and the BXR, RRX, and grenade reloading of Halo 2. If you took the top Quake player who only plays on PC and put him into an MLG match against a top Pro halo player they won't get a frag. If you put the top Halo player who never plays Quake he won't get a frag either. Just because you have bias towards PC games and claim they have higher skill ceilings does not mean that they do. This is something that simply can not be proved or even debated because you have nothing close to facts to support your claim. I think if anything can prove the skill gap of Halo its that the best Halo player of all time has 5 MLG national championships across 3 different halo games. He also is undefeated with his twin brother in 2v2 tournaments, I am talking about OGRE 2. Even though he pioneered competitive Halo he still not only competes but dominates against new players who got to grow up with competitive halo and watch him for years. He still dominates because Halo has a high skill ceiling. I still don't think you understand what I'm getting at. I'm saying that in any console game, you'll never have the room for the reaction that you do with a mouse and keyboard. Even if Quake started next year in MLG on the Xbox 360... I'd love to see someone try to strafejump with an Xbox controller. Or hit a flick rail shot. I think that one player dominating, especially in different releases of the game, shows its shallow nature. It shows how little you really have to master before you are able to compete at a high level. Has there been dominance in PC based games? Sure. Team 3D, SK Gaming, NoA in CS to name a few were THE teams to beat at times. Are any of them a force in Source? Not really, comparatively speaking. In Quake I can't really think of the "guy to beat". There are so many people at the top, each with significantly different playstyles because the game allows it. However, you didn't see the top Q3 players dominating Q4, because it was a DIFFERENT game that rewarded different playstyles. vo0 dominated the Painkiller scene for the majority of the games life, then fatal1ty came back to uncover a flaw in his gameplay to win the grand finals coming back from the losers bracket. Naniwa dominated MLG Providence, embarrassing many favorites, but relied too heavily on his FFE build iirc. Leenock took advantage of that and was able to rattle off 4 wins in a row. SC2 doesn't require high APM as much as BW and cheesing is looked down upon instead of being an amazing feat to pull off. Really, if you could aim with the joystick, you were good at Halo. Whether it was a pistol, BR, whatever the hell they're using now. Sniper, etc, whatever. Maybe I'll talk with my buddy about it tonight. He played Halo at a higher level than I did. Sorry if this is all over the place... I'm at work. EDIT: Also I don't necessarily mean exploits of game mechanics... I mean player A did this wrong so this opens all of these options for player B. A simple example would be the chain kills you could get in Q4 if you knew the spawn points... a kill could turn into 6 or 7 pretty quickly especially on small maps. | ||
intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
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AimlessAmoeba
Canada704 Posts
Excuse me while I go buy some nicer looking clothes *cry* | ||
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TALegion
United States1187 Posts
1. I play console and Starcraft equally, so I hope that my bias is minimal when I say this (I like em all rather equally): The Starcraft community is by far the best that I know of. No other group/forum/teams have EVER treated me as kindly and well as any Starcraft community has. Real Life friends of mine that I play Halo with aren't as generally kind as some random Starcraft players that I find on a daily basis. 2 Halo/Console Gaming as a whole is definitely a more casual game. That's not deniable, nor is it a good thing. These guys are saying that it makes them more desirable/"Normal," but to me, it sounds less competitive/more random. Any asshole can (and does...) jump on Halo on xbox live and be , but that level of commitment of legitimate interest in the game is what separates the casuals and dicks from Starcraft. TL;DR: Starcraft Community is the best I know, and Halo being "Casual"/"Normal," = Assholes. EDIT: On the topic of E-Sports, I think that a game is judged based on its merit, not its community. I honestly think that Halo has taken a SERIOUS competitive downturn since Halo 2, and within the first two weeks of release, I lost almost all interest in Reach. I would be surprised if Halo isn't at MLG next time, but I wouldn't consider it a loss. 2nd EDIT: The more I listen to this video, the more I remember why I hate console-based communities. This is easily the dumbest video I've seen in weeks. "Halo Dudes," vs. "Starcraft Nerds"? This is fucking disgusting and I'd be ashamed if they were the representatives of my game... | ||
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Hexxed
United States202 Posts
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