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On November 12 2011 22:21 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:
I highly doubt that a " GM in all 3 races player " that is day9 believed Choya stood any chance of wining other then Jinro disconnecting.... so whats all the hype for ?
It's a caster's job, in all sports, to try and keep the game interesting and entertaining for the viewer, even if it's a blow-out.
He actually could won if his the majority of his HT didn't get EMP, all the colossus was hitting the addon of a rax for the majority of the fight while Jinro had not enough vikings to deal with them anymore.
2 more storms and some hit from the colossus army would have decimated this bio army if Jinro didn't pull out to his choke/base.
More on topic, I really think Starcraft2 is not a spectator friendly (e)sport. Someone that knows nothing about SC2 will understand nothing, units dying here and there, and a guy winning because he has more units, meh don't even know what does what. In a sport, you can always tell what the movement are and what is happening
Someone that knows the game a bit but doesn't play(just did the campaign and some custom) won't find anything that impressive, because they won't be able to tell what is really had to do and rewarding ( excellent micro that increase efficiency like blink, stim split, multiple drop attack or defense while still being active on the macro side of the game)
Someone with a lot of game under his belt and replay/cast of high level play will find some game enjoyable knowing how hard it is to do what is happenning and how good it looks. And then you see some awesome moves and you're just like 'WOW that was impressive'.
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On November 12 2011 22:24 Derity wrote:
FPS like Quake (Duel) are far easier to understand/follow, but team based FPS like CS have pretty much the same problem as MOBA (DotA, LoL, HoN).
I barely play SC2 (fucking old machine) but I follow quite a lot of the tournaments.
FPS games in general have a spectator problem.
That being that to get a good sense of what's going on in a team match, you need to play the game enough to know the maps well so you can piece together all the FP views the casters are cycling through, or, the obs mode needs a 3rd-person free-roam option that accounts for obstructions. Really good kills are exciting to watch from a FP perspective. But the overall game is a chaotic flurry of switching views and the occasional free-roam where most of the players are just floating names on the screen. A mini-map that shows every player position could help a lot with FPS spectating.
MOBA games are better for spectators, because at least you can view most of what's happening from a top-down perspective, and there are main focal points of the action (towers, ganks, duels). But it becomes a bit of a cluster-fuck when team battles go down, and it's very hard to follow exactly what happened because of all the flashy effects the games use to animate the skills and abilities of the heroes. Also, a lot of the gear in these games don't have intuitive names, and the casters rarely tell us exactly what the gear does. I was watching some LoL last month during the IPL (IEM? I'm not sure actually). And though I enjoyed watching the game, I had NO idea wtf the casters were talking about.
RTS games are fairly good for spectators, especially with the obs mode that SC2 currently uses, because there's a fairly noticeable mini-map to keep an eye on for an overall view of the field in a nutshell, supply and resource counts are on-screen, and the obs is able to tab through items in-production, and current unit counts. Much of what happens in big battles is easy to discern, even if you don't know the intricacies of the micro involved, even an inexperienced player, or someone who's never played before, can understand approximately what happened in a big army battle. Abilities, if they don't have an intuitive name, are GIVEN intuitive nicknames by the casters and community (zealot legs, roach speed, as examples). Some of the problems with spectating RTS games is the inability to keep up with everything going on in a game between high levels players with high multitasking. A big battle in the middle while 2 drops go off, while x is happening and y in response all at the same time. It's just impossible to follow it all. But for the most part, RTS games are fairly spectator friendly, provided you have an experienced caster to explain some of the more confusing information in a nutshell. It's not necessary for the spectator to know everything about an RTS game, because the idea of two armies battling to control a map is actually very intuitive. It's chess, but on a much grander scale.
Fighting games are probably about as spectator-friendly as a game can be. The characters are on-screen. Their health is at the top, and you watch them fight. You don't NEED to know the intricacies of the battle, everything is on display. Spacing, timing, etc. You may not know how it's done, sometimes you won't even know it's happening, but you can watch the fight, look at the health bars, and know exactly who's winning. I haven't seen too many high-level fighting casts. But I imagine with a good caster or duo explaining the tactics a character often uses against the opposing character (explaining the meta game), that casting goes along quite well with fighting games as well.
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On November 12 2011 22:44 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:34 yoigen wrote:
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (18)
69%
hahhahhhahahahahaahahahhaha
yeah...well, its only natural to expect that every1 thinks they understand the game. Anyway. I am one of those who don't play...only on occasion, or when i get into that....in-the-mood week. However, i watch streams/tournaments daily.
That's exactly what I was thinking. This "poll" has the mother of all sampling biases. This is an esports centric website, of course nearly everyone here watches pro games. Also, everyone is going to say they have "pro level" knowledge of the game. On top of that we're all RTS players so of course we're going to think SC2 is easier to understand. Every single one of these polls is useless.
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everyone would like to think they know what's going on...
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Gold level player here. I play on a daily basis usually but I watch SC2 far more then I play it. I can vouch for my family too. On MLG weekends I invite my brothers (who don't play) my wife, kids etc etc and we cook up a big batch of chili drink some beers and watch SC2 on Sundays. They love it.
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Where's the option for "I watch it, but I don't play SC2 at all?"? Some of my friends pay for GSL tickets, but don't even own the game. They ask me some questions every now and then, and I point out couple things that I think is important, but they enjoy watching SC2 without any knowledge of the game. Although, I think they just like to keep up with their favorite players, not the actual game play, seeing how they refuse to watch tournaments without code S Koreans in it. So ya, I think it's somewhat spectator friendly, with the right commentators/casters.
btw
I watch it and i am a pro player (2)
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (52)
It seems like 50 potentially pro players have been shafted out of their successful SC2 careers. How tragic.
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you should have waited for hots to come out to ask this question, since this was discussed to death already for WoL ;o. Spectating and playing is something different because you see everything when you spectate. And good casters will explain what the opponent is doing and why, when there are downtimes. (and if they are super good they talk random if they explained everythign already :p).
So you can easily understand whats going on and why because of the caster. Had no knowledge about bw strategie in multiplayer but enjoyed watching some casts when sc2 hyped bw a bit. Understood quiet well what the intention is and why they do it. Beat up a c- person after they insisted on me playing.
As for sc2, sc2 plays faster then bw and there is often more going on in multiple places, so imo its harder to follow it. But not nearly hard enough so a caster couldn't explain you everything whats going on.
So yeah sc2 is easily watchable if you understand the language of the caster even if you never played before.
PS: if you watch sc2 ... the no knowledge option should be forbidden to pick after watching 10 games ...
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Everyone who chose: I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on, has obviously no clue about the game, so OP when you evaluate the outcome of the polls, keep that in mind!
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On November 12 2011 22:58 anrimayu wrote:
Where's the option for "I watch it, but I don't play SC2 at all?"? Some of my friends pay for GSL tickets, but don't even own the game. They ask me some questions every now and then, and I point out couple things that I think is important, but they enjoy watching SC2 without any knowledge of the game. Although, I think they just like to keep up with their favorite players, not the actual game play, seeing how they refuse to watch tournaments without code S Koreans in it. So ya, I think it's somewhat spectator friendly, with the right commentators/casters.
btw
I watch it and i am a pro player (2)
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (52)
It seems like 50 potentially pro players have been shafted out of their successful SC2 careers. How tragic.
I watch it and im a low level player ( bronze-plat)/don't play sc2 1v1 at all is the option since i would imagine that usually a bronze/silver/gold player doesn't understand much more of a pro match form playing in his league then a non starcraft 2 player due to the "meta- game" there involving cannon rushing terrans and void rays in pvp
Also the
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on was kinda bound to have so many ... ahm... but i was unthoughtful when writing the pool
On November 12 2011 23:09 FeyFey wrote:
you should have waited for hots to come out to ask this question, since this was discussed to death already for WoL ;o. Spectating and playing is something different because you see everything when you spectate. And good casters will explain what the opponent is doing and why, when there are downtimes. (and if they are super good they talk random if they explained everythign already :p).
So you can easily understand whats going on and why because of the caster. Had no knowledge about bw strategie in multiplayer but enjoyed watching some casts when sc2 hyped bw a bit. Understood quiet well what the intention is and why they do it. Beat up a c- person after they insisted on me playing.
As for sc2, sc2 plays faster then bw and there is often more going on in multiple places, so imo its harder to follow it. But not nearly hard enough so a caster couldn't explain you everything whats going on.
So yeah sc2 is easily watchable if you understand the language of the caster even if you never played before.
PS: if you watch sc2 ... the no knowledge option should be forbidden to pick after watching 10 games ...
I never saw it discussed on the forum in the past few months, the reason why i made the thread was cuz i was amazed of it not being discussed more tho i kinda got "into" the tl community halfway trough sc2 lifespawn ( not counting beta ) so it might have been just me "missing it".
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Poll: How much do you understand the mathces ?
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (60)
No, you do not.
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I cannot, and don't think I ever will understand how someone with no starcraft experience (as in never owned or played a single game in their life) could ever just become interested in SC esports. But apparently it happens somehow.
I don't think SC2 is a spectator friendly sport, at least not for my Grandma. She has no frame of reference for anything in SC2, how could she get excited about something like that? Compared to a regular sport, she could see someone doing a physically difficult activity and be impressed by it. By that same reasoning I don't think any e-sport is a good spectator sport
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I would say most pros have no understanding of what's going on and just get better by trial and error without using logical reasoning. Casters barely grasp what's going on, I doubt spectators are able to do it as well as they think they can.
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Don't play that much, don't even ladder and prefer to play with real life friends, but I do enjoy watching streams and may not always understand build orders efficiency, meta game or specific tactics until commented by the caster (if he's any good).
I think you HAVE to have any sort of understanding of any game to enjoy it. Hell, even normal sports suffer from this. Would you enjoy watching a random cricket match if you know nothing about how the game is played or who the players or teams are? Noobs tuning in must have some playing experience or have at least a friend walking them through the first few casts. You can tell some of the moves by pros are difficult to pull off (spreading marines or competent micro) even if you're a noob and the "I'm watching something the player is not aware of" factor is always interesting.
Still, new viewers should be able to understand a starcraft game after watching them a few times. I've found watching Poker on TV to be entertaing sometimes even if I've never played the game in my life, but you're given information the player is unaware of, the caster is usually telling you what's going on, the percentages tell you who has the greatest chance of winning a hand and watching a player walk straight into a trap, being bluffed out of a winning hand and watching them play with a pile of money next to them makes it entertaining. Starcraft may have a lot of units on the screen and a first time viewer might be at a loss at first, but most units in the game are pretty straightforward (soldiers, tanks, spitting bugs, flying ones) and you can easily tell who wins or loses a battle, an expansion or a base. That's usually enough to keep someone entertained, even if you don't know WHY they lost a battle or an expansion due to not understanding the mechanics or intricacies of the game.
On November 12 2011 23:23 NoobStyles wrote:
I don't think SC2 is a spectator friendly sport, at least not for my Grandma.
It's certainly not for grandmas. Would you say your twenty year old friend who never played PC games before but grew up playing console videogames, has a general understanding and liking of colorful, explodey 3D images running on the screen and has a competitive edge would have trouble understanding and eventually enjoying a Starcraft game?
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On November 12 2011 22:45 Iblis wrote:
More on topic, I really think Starcraft2 is not a spectator friendly (e)sport. Someone that knows nothing about SC2 will understand nothing, units dying here and there, and a guy winning because he has more units, meh don't even know what does what. In a sport, you can always tell what the movement are and what is happening
I don't really agree with this, I have basically no clue of what's happening in some sports like Rugby & American Football. All it is to me is just an egg shaped ball being thrown around, maybe I'm just not as perceptive as most other people.
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On November 12 2011 22:45 Iblis wrote:
More on topic, I really think Starcraft2 is not a spectator friendly (e)sport. Someone that knows nothing about SC2 will understand nothing, units dying here and there, and a guy winning because he has more units, meh don't even know what does what. In a sport, you can always tell what the movement are and what is happening.
Well that could be said about any sport. And no I cant alway tell what the movement are and what is happening. Some sports more or less.
On November 12 2011 23:23 LarvaLamp wrote:
I don't really agree with this, I have basically no clue of what's happening in some sports like Rugby & American Football. All it is to me is just an egg shaped ball being thrown around, maybe I'm just not as perceptive as most other people.
I understood almost nothing the first time I watched American football. But after I got explained the basic rules, it is so much more fun. Same thing with Starcraft 2 I fell.
Any game with a strategic elements is harder to understand. Same with football (and american), as well as chess. You dont just watch chess without knowing the rules, how the hell are you supposed to understand anything then?
So Starcraft is not a full out spectator friendly Esport, but it is quite user friendly, especially compared to other games.
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cmon 70% saying they understand just as much as the pro players?
thats like saying you understand NFL defenses as much as Peyton Manning
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I started watching SCII before I played it. Today I am what the OP defines as a mid-level (diamond) player who spends their SCII time watching pro streams and occasionally a tournament where a player I like is playing.
I remember when I started watching SCII, two things attracted me strongly. The first may be unique to me, but I thought of SCII as a puzzle to be figured out. This traces from my strong WOW player vs. player background where there are a thousand little tricks which you can learn to give yourself an advantage. I have yet to reach the point with starcraft that I was at with WOW but I am getting closer. The second reason i found SCII facinating was the positioning aspect. This was something which you didn't really need to know too much about the game to understand. Counter-attacks, flanks, these are the reasons I play SCII and why specifically I play zerg.
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Compared to dota/arena games its extremely more noob-friendly. Compared to FPS its slightly more noob-friendly. Compared to fighting games, I'd say its about the same level of noob-friendliness.
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On November 13 2011 00:14 Insomni7 wrote:
I started watching SCII before I played it. Today I am what the OP defines as a mid-level (diamond) player who spends their SCII time watching pro streams and occasionally a tournament where a player I like is playing.
Im the same as you in that I started watching Sc2, just vods casted by the likes of HD, Husky months before I actually started playing the game. I think this gave me a really big advantage when I first started playing and am still so thankful I stumbled upon them randomly on youtube.
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I used to be a pro halo player... but watching it wasn't incredible. I used to be a pro WoW player... watching it wasn't incredible. But I remember a Warcraft 3 match came on, and although I was a total RTS noob and had never played or seen the game, I was enjoying watching. I did not know the basic strategies, I did not know what the units did, but I was having a blast watching Grubby v. Moon.
RTS is simply the best "spectator" competitive game. Some grad students did an essay regarding the reasons behind this, and they brought up a good point... the overlay and information is presented in a manner that's easy to comprehend, you have a good understanding of what both players are doing and can build up anticipation for a conflict because of it. The casters also work towards building up to a big battle. You can watch other competitive gaming, but none of them have this facet to them. Sure, there are WOW HE DID WHAT moments, but the general game generally is pretty bland as a spectator. RTS doesn't have this problem because at high levels there is usually a handful of tense moments that can be played up, yet are slow enough for the viewer to process and tense up.
I should add that fighting games are rather spectator friendly too, although I'm not a huge fan of them.
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EPT
