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Hello team liquid
I am making this post since recently i heard a lot of talk about starcraft ( 2 ) being a great spectator "esport" since you can actually be a spectator for the game and play very rarely or not at all.
I personally never understood how you can enjoy a game like sc2 as a spectator only nor i did enjoy sc2 when i was a noob ( in RTS games n.w ) simply because i had no idea why the pros where doing what they were doing and how the units comp interacted with each other ( not to even mention the fact that i did not knew in what proportion upgrades/economy/structures where relevant to the state of the game i was watching ).
Recently however i began to enjoy watching sc2 more and more simply because I understand how the game works better and better with every passing month ( due to staying in front of my PC to much  )
Now you could say that some of the player that watch the pros are not master or even diamond due to lacking the mechanics/they don't even play the game ( since they enjoy watching more then playing ) but even then someone who has enough knowledge in sc2 to understand the game at a pro level should easily be at least on a platinum if not diamond or low master EVEN with shitty mechanics.
Further more i more then often see things such as this :http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfnPBdajg-w - a Jinro vs Choya game where Choya has almost no eco and they both have a huge army, Jinro has obviously won and Day9 + Wheat are hyping a final battle which can only end with Jinro coming out ahead due to him having 20 + production building and a complet MMM ghost viking ball vs zealot archon colossus ( which is a pretty un fair fight when the terran has the high ground and toss can't even warp in zealot or archons near the spot of the engagement.
I highly doubt that a " GM in all 3 races player " that is day9 believed Choya stood any chance of wining other then Jinro disconnecting.... so whats all the hype for ?
There are many other examples of caster hyping up players micro when the true story of the game is when the timing of there attacked hit or the units comp/upgrades they had ( or even the position they forced there opponents army into ) or when the game is actually over and the player is microing for showoff/ to be sure he doesn't loss in some stupid way to something he did no saw due to getting to much of his army killed in the "final battle".
Basically my questions for you are the following:
- Do you enjoy watching/think other ppl enjoy watching sc2 without actually ?
- If you do thing that there are ppl or if you idd are someone who watches sc2 without understanding much of what goes behind the pro player thought process then why do you actually enjoy/think they enjoy that kind of game over watching a 4v4 or some random master/diamond player ?
Also adding some pools
Poll: Who are you in sc2 1v1 and how do you watch pro sc2 1v1 matches ?I watch it and i am a mid level ( plat-master ) player (170) 48% I watch it and im a low level player ( bronze-plat)/don't play sc2 1v1 at all (96) 27% I watch it and i am pretty decent at the game tho not a pro ( high master/GM level in 1v1 ) (56) 16% I don't watch it and i am pretty decent at the game tho not a pro ( high master/GM level in 1v1 ) (9) 3% I watch it and i am a pro player (8) 2% I don't watch it and i am a mid level ( plat-master ) player (7) 2% I don't watch it and im a low level player ( bronze-gold)/don't play sc2 1v1 at all (4) 1% I don't watch it and i am a pro player (4) 1% 354 total votes Your vote: Who are you in sc2 1v1 and how do you watch pro sc2 1v1 matches ? (Vote): I watch it and im a low level player ( bronze-plat)/don't play sc2 1v1 at all
(Vote): I watch it and i am a mid level ( plat-master ) player
(Vote): I watch it and i am pretty decent at the game tho not a pro ( high master/GM level in 1v1 )
(Vote): I watch it and i am a pro player
(Vote): I don't watch it and im a low level player ( bronze-gold)/don't play sc2 1v1 at all
(Vote): I don't watch it and i am a mid level ( plat-master ) player
(Vote): I don't watch it and i am pretty decent at the game tho not a pro ( high master/GM level in 1v1 )
(Vote): I don't watch it and i am a pro player
Poll: How much do you understand the mathces ?I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (147) 60% I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on (83) 34% I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc ) (10) 4% I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles (4) 2% I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level (1) 0% 245 total votes Your vote: How much do you understand the mathces ? (Vote): I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on
(Vote): I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on
(Vote): I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc )
(Vote): I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level
(Vote): I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles
Poll: What type of sc2 caster do you like the most?Analytic caster ( Artossis ) (141) 53% I like casters that combine the 2 ( Day9 ) (98) 37% Play by play/shouts a lot caster ( Total biscuit/Dj Wheat ) (13) 5% I don't care much about the casters/like all of them evenly (12) 5% 264 total votes Your vote: What type of sc2 caster do you like the most? (Vote): Analytic caster ( Artossis )
(Vote): Play by play/shouts a lot caster ( Total biscuit/Dj Wheat )
(Vote): I like casters that combine the 2 ( Day9 )
(Vote): I don't care much about the casters/like all of them evenly
Poll: You think sc2 is a "noob" friendly Esport to watchYes compared to FPS, fighting and moba games (91) 45% Yes compared to moba games (39) 19% Yes compared to fighting and moba games (18) 9% I belive its the most noob "undfriendly" of all 4 popular "esport:" game genders (15) 7% Yes compared to moba and FPS games (14) 7% Yes compared to fighting games (7) 3% (5) 2% Yes compared to FPS games (4) 2% (4) 2% Yes compared to FPS and fighting games (3) 1% (2) 1% (2) 1% 204 total votes Your vote: You think sc2 is a "noob" friendly Esport to watch (Vote): Yes compared to fighting games
(Vote): Yes compared to moba games
(Vote): Yes compared to FPS games
(Vote): Yes compared to fighting and moba games
(Vote): Yes compared to moba and FPS games
(Vote): Yes compared to FPS and fighting games
(Vote): Yes compared to FPS, fighting and moba games
(Vote): I belive its the most noob "undfriendly" of all 4 popular "esport:" game genders
(Vote):
(Vote):
(Vote):
(Vote):
EDIT: There is no Dual cast option since that i obviously the favored of 99% and the best certainly ( not to mention that dual caster is used for almost every tournament ), i rather want to know which caster are you liking more from a duo
( lots of ppl asking and i now see that i forgot to mention it in the post )
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low level player, don't play much
watch a lot
i prefer the 2 caster setup (1 analytical, 1 play-by-play) , not mentioned in your poll
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On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:
I highly doubt that a " GM in all 3 races player " that is day9 believed Choya stood any chance of wining other then Jinro disconnecting.... so whats all the hype for ?
It's a caster's job, in all sports, to try and keep the game interesting and entertaining for the viewer, even if it's a blow-out.
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I play ~5 Games daily in Diamond League and watch GSL and other big tournaments like MLG.
I like Artosis and Tasteless the most.
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FPS like Quake (Duel) are far easier to understand/follow, but team based FPS like CS have pretty much the same problem as MOBA (DotA, LoL, HoN).
I barely play SC2 (fucking old machine) but I follow quite a lot of the tournaments.
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If someone is about to lose after one last fight sports commentators generally don't completely over hype it as in here 'OMG if he just wins this one fight then he can etc etc.', it's more like 'choya is fighting very well here but jinro should close it out in this last battle'
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The reason that they hype it up is that people will still be interested in the game. Its their job to keep the game interesting at all times. Which is why at the beginning of the games they dont focus much on the game and just talk about other things like the previous game because there isnt anything interesting at the beginning of the game. If you dont like casters overhyping things then i suggest you stop watching all sports because any caster will do this....
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On November 12 2011 22:21 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:
I highly doubt that a " GM in all 3 races player " that is day9 believed Choya stood any chance of wining other then Jinro disconnecting.... so whats all the hype for ?
It's a caster's job, in all sports, to try and keep the game interesting and entertaining for the viewer, even if it's a blow-out.
1 Thing is to keep the game interesting in a manner of " this player could come back if X and that might just happen right now if Y " like Artosis does and to scream louder when a nuke lands over an army that was killed then you screamed when the actual game ended ( Jinro did some shit and killed most of Choya base... don't remember exactly what but you can find the VOD on mlg tv )
On November 12 2011 22:26 kopi wrote:
If someone is about to lose after one last fight sports commentators generally don't completely over hype it as in here 'OMG if he just wins this one fight then he can etc etc.', it's more like 'choya is fighting very well here but jinro should close it out in this last battle'
pretty much this ^
To give a personal example when one of my country teams was getting owned 2-0 by Manchester the caster were idd still saying that they "might" have a chance to come back but they were not trying to act like the match is not over yet when it was 2-0 the ball was in our team court and 30 sec of the match were left/
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On November 12 2011 22:26 kopi wrote:
If someone is about to lose after one last fight sports commentators generally don't completely over hype it as in here 'OMG if he just wins this one fight then he can etc etc.', it's more like 'choya is fighting very well here but jinro should close it out in this last battle'
what is the fun in that? just look at all movies, they make these dramatic scenes where it looks like the hero is going to die but you know he really isnt because he is the hero. its hyping the situation and making it unpredictable so that the viewer can be entertained. Its basic knowledge of entertainment.
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On November 12 2011 22:19 Broodwurst wrote:
low level player, don't play much
watch a lot
i prefer the 2 caster setup (1 analytical, 1 play-by-play) , not mentioned in your poll
The same for me, don't play 1v1.
Also, the combination of one analytical caster and one good play by play caster is by far the best imo, dApollo plus Totalbiscuit is my favourite combo.
I think SC2 is a great spectator sport. Even if you have never seen a game of sc2 before you can see what both players are doing so you get it pretty fast.
I've watched some fps and you don't understand anything the players are doing, cause the camera follows only one of 10 or so players and there's no overview so if you've never played that map you don't know what's going on.
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I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (18)
69%
hahhahhhahahahahaahahahhaha
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Your poll about which caster you like the most, the best casting duo in all of e-sports is tastosis because artosis brings the analysis and tasteless brings the hype and makes the game interesting. They also have been casting with each other for so long that they can feed off each other and talk about things while the game is boring like you see them do all the time. I think the best single caster is day[9] simply because he has the analysis (being a 10 year bw player, probably the best foreigner), hes a funny guy, and he can hype up a game like you saw him do with jinro vs choya.
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No one should be selecting this option for question 2:
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on
-_-
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"I have as much understanding as the pro level player of what's going on."
LOOL. I like how everyone chooses that option. Expect inaccurate results. If you understood the game like a pro, you would be a pro. Period.
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On November 12 2011 22:36 soulist wrote:
Your poll about which caster you like the most, the best casting duo in all of e-sports is tastosis because artosis brings the analysis and tasteless brings the hype and makes the game interesting. They also have been casting with each other for so long that they can feed off each other and talk about things while the game is boring like you see them do all the time. I think the best single caster is day[9] simply because he has the analysis (being a 10 year bw player, probably the best foreigner), hes a funny guy, and he can hype up a game like you saw him do with jinro vs choya.
I'm a huge fan of Day9, but I don't think anyone thought he was the best foreigner
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I consider SC2 to be as friendly as it gets since you don't have to focus on 10 people at once (well we're talking about the high-level players right now, where SC2 is just 1v1). I'm a low-leagued player and even I can understand what's going on tactically most of the time. I'm better comparatively in LoL than at SC2, and I can understand more of SC2 than LoL sometimes. In general, it's an easy-to-learn, hard-to-master type of game where there's something for everyone.
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I do think SC2 is not as good of a spectator sport as BW was (I was actually going to ask this to State of the Game but they never took my question), but that's just because the playstyle is not as evolved as it was in BW. Once the better players switch over and learn aggressive timings/builds, it will be much more exciting than droning up for the first 10 minutes then throwing 200/200 armies at each other
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On November 12 2011 22:36 Enervate wrote:
"I have as much understanding as the pro level player of what's going on."
LOOL. I like how everyone chooses that option. Expect inaccurate results. If you understood the game like a pro, you would be a pro. Period.
thats not true, ever heard of mechanics ?
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On November 12 2011 22:34 yoigen wrote:
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (18)
69%
hahhahhhahahahahaahahahhaha
yeah...well, its only natural to expect that every1 thinks they understand the game.
Anyway.
I am one of those who don't play...only on occasion, or when i get into that....in-the-mood week. However, i watch streams/tournaments daily.
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thanks for giving me another reason to go to MLG prov.
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On November 12 2011 22:21 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:
I highly doubt that a " GM in all 3 races player " that is day9 believed Choya stood any chance of wining other then Jinro disconnecting.... so whats all the hype for ?
It's a caster's job, in all sports, to try and keep the game interesting and entertaining for the viewer, even if it's a blow-out.
He actually could won if his the majority of his HT didn't get EMP, all the colossus was hitting the addon of a rax for the majority of the fight while Jinro had not enough vikings to deal with them anymore.
2 more storms and some hit from the colossus army would have decimated this bio army if Jinro didn't pull out to his choke/base.
More on topic, I really think Starcraft2 is not a spectator friendly (e)sport. Someone that knows nothing about SC2 will understand nothing, units dying here and there, and a guy winning because he has more units, meh don't even know what does what. In a sport, you can always tell what the movement are and what is happening
Someone that knows the game a bit but doesn't play(just did the campaign and some custom) won't find anything that impressive, because they won't be able to tell what is really had to do and rewarding ( excellent micro that increase efficiency like blink, stim split, multiple drop attack or defense while still being active on the macro side of the game)
Someone with a lot of game under his belt and replay/cast of high level play will find some game enjoyable knowing how hard it is to do what is happenning and how good it looks. And then you see some awesome moves and you're just like 'WOW that was impressive'.
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On November 12 2011 22:24 Derity wrote:
FPS like Quake (Duel) are far easier to understand/follow, but team based FPS like CS have pretty much the same problem as MOBA (DotA, LoL, HoN).
I barely play SC2 (fucking old machine) but I follow quite a lot of the tournaments.
FPS games in general have a spectator problem.
That being that to get a good sense of what's going on in a team match, you need to play the game enough to know the maps well so you can piece together all the FP views the casters are cycling through, or, the obs mode needs a 3rd-person free-roam option that accounts for obstructions. Really good kills are exciting to watch from a FP perspective. But the overall game is a chaotic flurry of switching views and the occasional free-roam where most of the players are just floating names on the screen. A mini-map that shows every player position could help a lot with FPS spectating.
MOBA games are better for spectators, because at least you can view most of what's happening from a top-down perspective, and there are main focal points of the action (towers, ganks, duels). But it becomes a bit of a cluster-fuck when team battles go down, and it's very hard to follow exactly what happened because of all the flashy effects the games use to animate the skills and abilities of the heroes. Also, a lot of the gear in these games don't have intuitive names, and the casters rarely tell us exactly what the gear does. I was watching some LoL last month during the IPL (IEM? I'm not sure actually). And though I enjoyed watching the game, I had NO idea wtf the casters were talking about.
RTS games are fairly good for spectators, especially with the obs mode that SC2 currently uses, because there's a fairly noticeable mini-map to keep an eye on for an overall view of the field in a nutshell, supply and resource counts are on-screen, and the obs is able to tab through items in-production, and current unit counts. Much of what happens in big battles is easy to discern, even if you don't know the intricacies of the micro involved, even an inexperienced player, or someone who's never played before, can understand approximately what happened in a big army battle. Abilities, if they don't have an intuitive name, are GIVEN intuitive nicknames by the casters and community (zealot legs, roach speed, as examples). Some of the problems with spectating RTS games is the inability to keep up with everything going on in a game between high levels players with high multitasking. A big battle in the middle while 2 drops go off, while x is happening and y in response all at the same time. It's just impossible to follow it all. But for the most part, RTS games are fairly spectator friendly, provided you have an experienced caster to explain some of the more confusing information in a nutshell. It's not necessary for the spectator to know everything about an RTS game, because the idea of two armies battling to control a map is actually very intuitive. It's chess, but on a much grander scale.
Fighting games are probably about as spectator-friendly as a game can be. The characters are on-screen. Their health is at the top, and you watch them fight. You don't NEED to know the intricacies of the battle, everything is on display. Spacing, timing, etc. You may not know how it's done, sometimes you won't even know it's happening, but you can watch the fight, look at the health bars, and know exactly who's winning. I haven't seen too many high-level fighting casts. But I imagine with a good caster or duo explaining the tactics a character often uses against the opposing character (explaining the meta game), that casting goes along quite well with fighting games as well.
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On November 12 2011 22:44 Gotmog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:34 yoigen wrote:
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (18)
69%
hahhahhhahahahahaahahahhaha
yeah...well, its only natural to expect that every1 thinks they understand the game. Anyway. I am one of those who don't play...only on occasion, or when i get into that....in-the-mood week. However, i watch streams/tournaments daily.
That's exactly what I was thinking. This "poll" has the mother of all sampling biases. This is an esports centric website, of course nearly everyone here watches pro games. Also, everyone is going to say they have "pro level" knowledge of the game. On top of that we're all RTS players so of course we're going to think SC2 is easier to understand. Every single one of these polls is useless.
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everyone would like to think they know what's going on...
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Gold level player here. I play on a daily basis usually but I watch SC2 far more then I play it. I can vouch for my family too. On MLG weekends I invite my brothers (who don't play) my wife, kids etc etc and we cook up a big batch of chili drink some beers and watch SC2 on Sundays. They love it.
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Where's the option for "I watch it, but I don't play SC2 at all?"? Some of my friends pay for GSL tickets, but don't even own the game. They ask me some questions every now and then, and I point out couple things that I think is important, but they enjoy watching SC2 without any knowledge of the game. Although, I think they just like to keep up with their favorite players, not the actual game play, seeing how they refuse to watch tournaments without code S Koreans in it. So ya, I think it's somewhat spectator friendly, with the right commentators/casters.
btw
I watch it and i am a pro player (2)
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (52)
It seems like 50 potentially pro players have been shafted out of their successful SC2 careers. How tragic.
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you should have waited for hots to come out to ask this question, since this was discussed to death already for WoL ;o. Spectating and playing is something different because you see everything when you spectate. And good casters will explain what the opponent is doing and why, when there are downtimes. (and if they are super good they talk random if they explained everythign already :p).
So you can easily understand whats going on and why because of the caster. Had no knowledge about bw strategie in multiplayer but enjoyed watching some casts when sc2 hyped bw a bit. Understood quiet well what the intention is and why they do it. Beat up a c- person after they insisted on me playing.
As for sc2, sc2 plays faster then bw and there is often more going on in multiple places, so imo its harder to follow it. But not nearly hard enough so a caster couldn't explain you everything whats going on.
So yeah sc2 is easily watchable if you understand the language of the caster even if you never played before.
PS: if you watch sc2 ... the no knowledge option should be forbidden to pick after watching 10 games ...
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Everyone who chose: I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on, has obviously no clue about the game, so OP when you evaluate the outcome of the polls, keep that in mind!
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On November 12 2011 22:58 anrimayu wrote:
Where's the option for "I watch it, but I don't play SC2 at all?"? Some of my friends pay for GSL tickets, but don't even own the game. They ask me some questions every now and then, and I point out couple things that I think is important, but they enjoy watching SC2 without any knowledge of the game. Although, I think they just like to keep up with their favorite players, not the actual game play, seeing how they refuse to watch tournaments without code S Koreans in it. So ya, I think it's somewhat spectator friendly, with the right commentators/casters.
btw
I watch it and i am a pro player (2)
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (52)
It seems like 50 potentially pro players have been shafted out of their successful SC2 careers. How tragic.
I watch it and im a low level player ( bronze-plat)/don't play sc2 1v1 at all is the option since i would imagine that usually a bronze/silver/gold player doesn't understand much more of a pro match form playing in his league then a non starcraft 2 player due to the "meta- game" there involving cannon rushing terrans and void rays in pvp
Also the
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on was kinda bound to have so many ... ahm... but i was unthoughtful when writing the pool
On November 12 2011 23:09 FeyFey wrote:
you should have waited for hots to come out to ask this question, since this was discussed to death already for WoL ;o. Spectating and playing is something different because you see everything when you spectate. And good casters will explain what the opponent is doing and why, when there are downtimes. (and if they are super good they talk random if they explained everythign already :p).
So you can easily understand whats going on and why because of the caster. Had no knowledge about bw strategie in multiplayer but enjoyed watching some casts when sc2 hyped bw a bit. Understood quiet well what the intention is and why they do it. Beat up a c- person after they insisted on me playing.
As for sc2, sc2 plays faster then bw and there is often more going on in multiple places, so imo its harder to follow it. But not nearly hard enough so a caster couldn't explain you everything whats going on.
So yeah sc2 is easily watchable if you understand the language of the caster even if you never played before.
PS: if you watch sc2 ... the no knowledge option should be forbidden to pick after watching 10 games ...
I never saw it discussed on the forum in the past few months, the reason why i made the thread was cuz i was amazed of it not being discussed more tho i kinda got "into" the tl community halfway trough sc2 lifespawn ( not counting beta ) so it might have been just me "missing it".
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Poll: How much do you understand the mathces ?
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (60)
No, you do not.
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I cannot, and don't think I ever will understand how someone with no starcraft experience (as in never owned or played a single game in their life) could ever just become interested in SC esports. But apparently it happens somehow.
I don't think SC2 is a spectator friendly sport, at least not for my Grandma. She has no frame of reference for anything in SC2, how could she get excited about something like that? Compared to a regular sport, she could see someone doing a physically difficult activity and be impressed by it. By that same reasoning I don't think any e-sport is a good spectator sport
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I would say most pros have no understanding of what's going on and just get better by trial and error without using logical reasoning. Casters barely grasp what's going on, I doubt spectators are able to do it as well as they think they can.
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Don't play that much, don't even ladder and prefer to play with real life friends, but I do enjoy watching streams and may not always understand build orders efficiency, meta game or specific tactics until commented by the caster (if he's any good).
I think you HAVE to have any sort of understanding of any game to enjoy it. Hell, even normal sports suffer from this. Would you enjoy watching a random cricket match if you know nothing about how the game is played or who the players or teams are? Noobs tuning in must have some playing experience or have at least a friend walking them through the first few casts. You can tell some of the moves by pros are difficult to pull off (spreading marines or competent micro) even if you're a noob and the "I'm watching something the player is not aware of" factor is always interesting.
Still, new viewers should be able to understand a starcraft game after watching them a few times. I've found watching Poker on TV to be entertaing sometimes even if I've never played the game in my life, but you're given information the player is unaware of, the caster is usually telling you what's going on, the percentages tell you who has the greatest chance of winning a hand and watching a player walk straight into a trap, being bluffed out of a winning hand and watching them play with a pile of money next to them makes it entertaining. Starcraft may have a lot of units on the screen and a first time viewer might be at a loss at first, but most units in the game are pretty straightforward (soldiers, tanks, spitting bugs, flying ones) and you can easily tell who wins or loses a battle, an expansion or a base. That's usually enough to keep someone entertained, even if you don't know WHY they lost a battle or an expansion due to not understanding the mechanics or intricacies of the game.
On November 12 2011 23:23 NoobStyles wrote:
I don't think SC2 is a spectator friendly sport, at least not for my Grandma.
It's certainly not for grandmas. Would you say your twenty year old friend who never played PC games before but grew up playing console videogames, has a general understanding and liking of colorful, explodey 3D images running on the screen and has a competitive edge would have trouble understanding and eventually enjoying a Starcraft game?
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On November 12 2011 22:45 Iblis wrote:
More on topic, I really think Starcraft2 is not a spectator friendly (e)sport. Someone that knows nothing about SC2 will understand nothing, units dying here and there, and a guy winning because he has more units, meh don't even know what does what. In a sport, you can always tell what the movement are and what is happening
I don't really agree with this, I have basically no clue of what's happening in some sports like Rugby & American Football. All it is to me is just an egg shaped ball being thrown around, maybe I'm just not as perceptive as most other people.
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On November 12 2011 22:45 Iblis wrote:
More on topic, I really think Starcraft2 is not a spectator friendly (e)sport. Someone that knows nothing about SC2 will understand nothing, units dying here and there, and a guy winning because he has more units, meh don't even know what does what. In a sport, you can always tell what the movement are and what is happening.
Well that could be said about any sport. And no I cant alway tell what the movement are and what is happening. Some sports more or less.
On November 12 2011 23:23 LarvaLamp wrote:
I don't really agree with this, I have basically no clue of what's happening in some sports like Rugby & American Football. All it is to me is just an egg shaped ball being thrown around, maybe I'm just not as perceptive as most other people.
I understood almost nothing the first time I watched American football. But after I got explained the basic rules, it is so much more fun. Same thing with Starcraft 2 I fell.
Any game with a strategic elements is harder to understand. Same with football (and american), as well as chess. You dont just watch chess without knowing the rules, how the hell are you supposed to understand anything then?
So Starcraft is not a full out spectator friendly Esport, but it is quite user friendly, especially compared to other games.
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cmon 70% saying they understand just as much as the pro players?
thats like saying you understand NFL defenses as much as Peyton Manning
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I started watching SCII before I played it. Today I am what the OP defines as a mid-level (diamond) player who spends their SCII time watching pro streams and occasionally a tournament where a player I like is playing.
I remember when I started watching SCII, two things attracted me strongly. The first may be unique to me, but I thought of SCII as a puzzle to be figured out. This traces from my strong WOW player vs. player background where there are a thousand little tricks which you can learn to give yourself an advantage. I have yet to reach the point with starcraft that I was at with WOW but I am getting closer. The second reason i found SCII facinating was the positioning aspect. This was something which you didn't really need to know too much about the game to understand. Counter-attacks, flanks, these are the reasons I play SCII and why specifically I play zerg.
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Compared to dota/arena games its extremely more noob-friendly. Compared to FPS its slightly more noob-friendly. Compared to fighting games, I'd say its about the same level of noob-friendliness.
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On November 13 2011 00:14 Insomni7 wrote:
I started watching SCII before I played it. Today I am what the OP defines as a mid-level (diamond) player who spends their SCII time watching pro streams and occasionally a tournament where a player I like is playing.
Im the same as you in that I started watching Sc2, just vods casted by the likes of HD, Husky months before I actually started playing the game. I think this gave me a really big advantage when I first started playing and am still so thankful I stumbled upon them randomly on youtube.
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I used to be a pro halo player... but watching it wasn't incredible. I used to be a pro WoW player... watching it wasn't incredible. But I remember a Warcraft 3 match came on, and although I was a total RTS noob and had never played or seen the game, I was enjoying watching. I did not know the basic strategies, I did not know what the units did, but I was having a blast watching Grubby v. Moon.
RTS is simply the best "spectator" competitive game. Some grad students did an essay regarding the reasons behind this, and they brought up a good point... the overlay and information is presented in a manner that's easy to comprehend, you have a good understanding of what both players are doing and can build up anticipation for a conflict because of it. The casters also work towards building up to a big battle. You can watch other competitive gaming, but none of them have this facet to them. Sure, there are WOW HE DID WHAT moments, but the general game generally is pretty bland as a spectator. RTS doesn't have this problem because at high levels there is usually a handful of tense moments that can be played up, yet are slow enough for the viewer to process and tense up.
I should add that fighting games are rather spectator friendly too, although I'm not a huge fan of them.
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On November 13 2011 00:07 ToguRo wrote:
cmon 70% saying they understand just as much as the pro players?
thats like saying you understand NFL defenses as much as Peyton Manning
Most of the time if you want a biased poll, it's not that hard, just make the right questions.
Look here there is basicely :
- I understand like a pro
- I barely get what's going on
So people picks the choice they feel they are the closer to.
Moreover while watching you fell smarter because you see obvious flaws in the pro's play (why is he making spore crawlers the guy is making seven gates ?).
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I started watching Sc2 before I started playing it. that's kinda what made me buy it.
Afterwards I spent a lot of time spamming a friend of mine with sc2 vids. By now he seems to have taken a fair interest into it. I've never been under the impression that he dislikes watching sc2.
And Starcraft 2 isn't hard to watch or understand, sure you might not get everything at first, but you learn if you continue watching. Same goes for a sport like football.
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On November 13 2011 00:07 ToguRo wrote:
cmon 70% saying they understand just as much as the pro players?
thats like saying you understand NFL defenses as much as Peyton Manning
You should see me play Madden. I tear defenses apart because I learned how to exploit different coverages and how to recognize them quickly. That doesn't mean I think I'm better at football than Peyton, but I can still understand it at an equivalent level. Executing... that's another thing.
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On November 12 2011 22:34 yoigen wrote:
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (18)
69%
hahhahhhahahahahaahahahhaha
That made me laugh too 
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Pretty shitty poll there when you ignore the most common caster combo within it. Gives some seriously biased results.
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I watch it and I don't play at all.
Add that option because it pretty much tells you that Yes it is very watchable.
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I barely play, but watch SC2 almost on a daily basis.
IMO SC2 is extremely noob friendly for spectators. I started watching SC2 during beta (Husky) and haven't played much RTS in the 10 years prior to that.I did play some very very low level dune, warcraft, C&C and 2 other RTS games i can't remember the name of before that. I bought my current computer specificly to play SC2 (1 or 2 months after the release of the game), because i enjoyed watching it so much.
I've played (board/role playing/card/PC/console) games all my life and have played MTG competatively for periods of time and poker for about 1 or 2 years.
I've always enjoyed watching (PC/console/card) games... just watching friends play or pro level games. I was always intrigued by competative PC gaming, but it was hard to find because of all the different labels that were used for it (competative gaming, pro gaming, virtual sports, electronics sports, cyber sports, etc). I was never into BW. With SC2 i finally found my way into the huge archives of "eSports". I really like shows like @#%$ Slasher and LO3, because it focusses on more then just SC2.
I've tried enjoying MOBA games, but it's just not exciting for me... the tension arc is bad, the ingame storyline is bad, there is no real climax, etc. I'm also no a big fan of watching FPS, except Quake (?)... maybe i simply don't enjoy watching team games. I'd rather watch competative Fifa, Trackmania or even Guitar Hero above MOBA games.
I would love to see Soul Caliber and Dynablaster competatively.
DjWheat & Apolo @ IPL3 is the caster combination i've enjoyed the most in the past year.
I think i've covered all the points in the OP now.
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So many people thinking they understand the game as well as pros XD Made my day.
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65% saying that they understand the game as good as the pros, lmao. this explains a lot. get real people
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I vote this poll best example of TL elitism of all time.
"pretty decent" -high masters/GM level. FFS these people are not decent, they are good. GOOD. NOT DECENT. How does it make any sense to call the top 1% of players decent? That's like saying the top 1% of Americans are "decently wealthy". THEY'RE NOT. THEY'RE FUCKING RICH.
-There are 7 people who are pro players, yet 110 people understand what's going on on a pro level. So people are on the same mental level as pros, yet they're "decent". What a joke.
The number of clearly dominated choices and representations in here is sooooo skewed, I can't see how you could possibly use any of this data.
Why is the question of "is sc2 a spectator friendly e-sport to watch" not just a YES or a NO. The OP discusses absolutely nothing relevant to spectating other e-sports, and all of a sudden there's an extra 6 options? Where's the rationality for that?
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On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:Poll: How much do you understand the mathces ?I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (147) 60% I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on (83) 34% I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc ) (10) 4% I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles (4) 2% I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level (1) 0% 245 total votes Your vote: How much do you understand the mathces ? (Vote): I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on
(Vote): I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on
(Vote): I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc )
(Vote): I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level
(Vote): I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles
my god where have these people been hiding all this time?!
LOL
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Pretty useless poll on an SC2 forum.
Off course every1 is gonna vote positive.
Fact is that SC2 isn't spectator friendly at all, if you don't play the game urself u have absolutely no idea what ur watching.
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Lol, I like how the majority voted that they know as much as the pros. I can easily say the vast majority of people are misleading themselves if they actually believe this. The vast majority of casters don't even know, even some of the good ones.
As for the OP, I say yes it is friendly. But it's not the friendliest.
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On November 13 2011 03:27 Jakkerr wrote:
Pretty useless poll on an SC2 forum.
Off course every1 is gonna vote positive.
Fact is that SC2 isn't spectator friendly at all, if you don't play the game urself u have absolutely no idea what ur watching.
Eh I don't play sc2 at all, it does take time to learn the terms and what goes on but if you are interested in it then it will not matter as much.
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Sometimes it just looks like clump vs clump wars but other than that it's amazing to watch sometimes even to the point where I get nerd chills
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btw
I watch it and i am a pro player (2)
I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (52)
It seems like 50 potentially pro players have been shafted out of their successful SC2 careers. How tragic.
I might know exactly how a nuclear reactor work inside and out but that does not mean that i can actually build one.
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On November 13 2011 02:54 Nukm_ wrote:
65% saying that they understand the game as good as the pros, lmao. this explains a lot. get real people
There is a difference between understanding and executing. One can understand a vast amount of information, but when that information needs to be put to use, the odds are, the pro will put it to better use and execute in a superior fashion. There are some scenarios in which one won't have any idea, whether they are pro or not, of what is going on. Big example, Nestea vs Anypro on Dual Site. Nestea went for a fast lair to spine rush Anypro, at that point Artosis and Tasteless were both stumped.
At the same time, the term "understanding the game" may be to broad as well. Does that me just a general understanding? Or are we moving towards areas that are clouded? Such as Nestea's spine rush.
Pertaining to myself personally, I am a platinum player and I feel I have a vast basic understanding of the game at a pro level. I understand the different styles a terran can use in a TvT, bio, mech, bio/mech, sky. I understand the concept of why mutas are so important in TvZ, not just for harass and containment, but for drop protection. I understand the concept of why blink robo builds are the new big thing in PvP. But, did I understand when Nestea spine rushed Anypro? No, not one bit. But that is a case of learning and going forth and becoming familiar with something. I've gathered that information now, I understand why that is a decent FFE counter.
All in all, while I may not be able to execute at a pro level, I feel I understand the basics and even to the extent of most of they "tiny" things, such as superior timings for certain units and why pros do it in that fashion.
Edit:Typo
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I like to watch JYP and Sase stream. I also catch all the big tournaments except for IEM. And Im only Gold.
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Quit bitching about how there is no dual caster option, the poll is asking if there was only ONE caster would you prefer analytic or shoutcasting style
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of course it is, compared to other games like Counter strike or any FPS game, its simply great for watching !
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I watched for like 10 months before a got a comp good enough to play sc2. I am gold now but have been watching the whole time because it is an awesome spectator sport even with 0 playing experience.
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On November 12 2011 22:42 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:36 Enervate wrote:
"I have as much understanding as the pro level player of what's going on."
LOOL. I like how everyone chooses that option. Expect inaccurate results. If you understood the game like a pro, you would be a pro. Period. thats not true, ever heard of mechanics ?
thats not true, mechanics are almost nothing in sc2. if you are a platinum, you understand the game as a platinum, simple. even same level progamers dont know 100% whats going on in progamers head when they are playing, people have different ways to see the game
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On November 13 2011 03:24 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:Poll: How much do you understand the mathces ?I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (147) 60% I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on (83) 34% I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc ) (10) 4% I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles (4) 2% I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level (1) 0% 245 total votes Your vote: How much do you understand the mathces ? (Vote): I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on
(Vote): I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on
(Vote): I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc )
(Vote): I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level
(Vote): I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles
my god where have these people been hiding all this time?! LOL
why you posting here? keep training, there will be at least 130 people as good as you if they learn basic mechanics
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On November 13 2011 03:40 Propanelol wrote:
Quit bitching about how there is no dual caster option, the poll is asking if there was only ONE caster would you prefer analytic or shoutcasting style
Well the question is flawed then becuse the game needs both in a duo for it to be interesting, new watchers need the analytical one and old watchers need to be entertained by the shoutcasting one.
EDIT: I prefere the shoutcasting ones, specially Husky.
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I think its pretty "cute" when pro players believe their understanding of the game is completely superior to everyone who is a non-pro. For one, given the age of most pro players, odds are many of them have no experience with higher education. They haven't been exposed to some of the logical fallacies they're guilty of committing every time they assume they understand the game better than some random masters player. Is it likely that they do? Sure. Is it a foregone conclusion? Absolutely not. The BIG factor that makes it ridiculous to assume that a mid-masters player cannot have a true deep understanding of the game is the simple fact that Starcraft 2 is NOT a complicated game. There are nuances, sure, but there is nothing inherently difficult to understand and no actions that players take that think beyond 2 or 3 "if, then" type statements. If you are the kind of person that feels better about yourself because you have insider information (e.g. having sooooo much game knowledge in sc2), you should probably consider playing a more complicated game for gratification... like American Football. From body mechanics to play options to field position battles you will find a more technically difficult to understand game in NFL football than you ever will in a game of Starcraft... its just plain true.
Source: 12 years RTS experience, a college education, and an athletic resume.
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On November 12 2011 22:15 Aterons_toss wrote:Poll: How much do you understand the mathces ?I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on (147) 60% I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on (83) 34% I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc ) (10) 4% I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles (4) 2% I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level (1) 0% 245 total votes Your vote: How much do you understand the mathces ? (Vote): I have an understanding as good as the pro player themself of whats going on
(Vote): I don't always understand the new tactics/meta game shifts but other than that i get whats going on
(Vote): I onyl understand it at a mid-ish level ( aka upgrades are good, expansions are good..etc )
(Vote): I only understand it at a "who microed better" " who has more suply" level
(Vote): I don't understand pretty much anything except for who won the games/battles
You guys can't be serious.
Unless you are a pro, you don't understand the game on the same level as a pro.
Just because you know that immortals do extra damage to roaches, you aren't an analytical genius.
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On November 13 2011 03:37 Phobbers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 13 2011 02:54 Nukm_ wrote:
65% saying that they understand the game as good as the pros, lmao. this explains a lot. get real people There is a difference between understanding and executing. One can understand a vast amount of information, but when that information needs to be put to use, the odds are, the pro will put it to better use and execute in a superior fashion. There are some scenarios in which one won't have any idea, whether they are pro or not, of what is going on. Big example, Nestea vs Anypro on Dual Site. Nestea went for a fast lair to spine rush Anypro, at that point Artosis and Tasteless were both stumped. At the same time, the term "understanding the game" may be to broad as well. Does that me just a general understanding? Or are we moving towards areas that are clouded? Such as Nestea's spine rush. Pertaining to myself personally, I am a platinum player and I feel I have a vast basic understanding of the game at a pro level. I understand the different styles a terran can use in a TvT, bio, mech, bio/mech, sky. I understand the concept of why mutas are so important in TvZ, not just for harass and containment, but for drop protection. I understand the concept of why blink robo builds are the new big thing in PvP. But, did I understand when Nestea spine rushed Anypro? No, not one bit. But that is a case of learning and going forth and becoming familiar with something. I've gathered that information now, I understand why that is a decent FFE counter. All in all, while I may not be able to execute at a pro level, I feel I understand the basics and even to the extent of most of they "tiny" things, such as superior timings for certain units and why pros do it in that fashion. Edit:Typo
Yeah, I understand things quite well too. But this isn't a "Do you understand most things that are happening?" question. From spending a ridiculous amount of time reading guides and strategy forum posts, watching high level streams, and seeing tournaments, yes, I understand the game pretty well. But not NEARLY as much as a pro. That's ridiculous. The amount of game sense and knowledge they have from all their practice is ridiculous: that's why they are the pros. It's not like a plat player could be a pro if they just had MVP's mechanics. You don't just gain mechanical skill from playing, you learn every detail of the game.
I like how I was reading it and I saw "pro" and said "Oh of course not that's ridiculous. Only pros and maybe GMs or top 8 masters can argue that they have that kind of knowledge, and even most of them can't compare to real pros. Mechanics aren't nearly as important as knowledge. Goody, Sjow, WhiteRa, and Axslav can win tournaments because they know the ins and outs of the game, not because of their apm." I wasn't aware that two thirds of TL members were GMs lol.
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United States13896 Posts
This OP isn't producing any fruitful discussion. It's hard to even read at times, please do some kind of proof-reading before you hit the "Post" button.
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EPT
