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On November 01 2011 23:14 Shrimpy949 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:04 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke nice straw man , you pretend as if its marines alone with no tech. This is a better argument, 1 overlord with 4 banes in it = GG all workers? Hey ease up he is just saying how he feels. I have been super pissed when a medivac or two full of marines drops my expansion and it is dead by the time my banes get there to deal with it. I think this is something that 100% of zergs have thought at one time or another. That being said I don't think marines are overpowered. From my experience the best way to deal with drops is hit them before they drop. Otherwise your going to lose a lot of stuff  . Marines are fine they just have great synergy with the rest of the terran army which I think is why other races feel helpless a lot of the time. I'm no terran player but I think marines are alright... had to deal with at sometimes but not overpowered.
Easing up isn't really the point of the thread. There are a lot of things that piss players off, but we aren't supposed to make a thread everytime we encounter a strategy that we can't handle.
I'm not going after you though. You seem to have the right attitude about things. Marines are a good unit and it can be hard dealing with them. But you can deal with them using strategy and smarter play, some of which turn marines into goo before they can even fire a shot. Its just like the muta thread. Muta's are really strong and terrans have a tough time with them, but there are ways to handle them and working on a better strategy and learning how to deal with them is better for you AND the game than making more stupid threads trying to get blizzard to mess up the game even more because people like to bitch.
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Yes, Marines are OP. Because of their speed and rate of fire you can micro them through any situation better than any other unit in the game. Their skill ceiling is literally so high that no human will ever utilize them to their greatest extent. Not only this but because of their small size, you can fit so many of them in an area that the DPS the Terran player can have for utilizing the correct terrain features is huge.
However without that godlike micro they are a balanced unit, and can be killed with the right micro/tech. I just worry that one day 10 years in the future, when the skill ceiling is hit for most other units, the marine will exceed all expectations by perfectly splitting, stimming and stutter stepping.
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Balance discussion is so stupid.. game is fine enjoy it !
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On November 01 2011 23:00 jinixxx123 wrote:
no i disagree that they are overpowered. And btw, every race has there own mineral dump.
in pvz the only mineral dump is cannons..
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On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Obviously inspired by the Muta thread.
A lot of the argument against the WarHound is that Marines are already more than enough AA for TvZ, and even Thors are mostly unnecessary so why are they trying to make a better Thor?
I personally have hated the Marine since beta. To keep from ranting, there is simply no reason to not make marines in SC2, even when faced with their "counter units" they are so cheap and effective that they should always be made.
As Zerg, currently, nothing in the game trumps marines. Banelings are mostly ineffective and infestors require 150 energy to kill X marines. Both units being high in gas cost and limited in their utility.
Protoss has it slightly better with the Colossus, unfortunately, that unit is just badly designed in general. HTs with storm are effective when the storm lands, unfortunately Marines move so fast, they often only take 30-40 damage before making it out, leaving them with 5hp, but their full DPS. Archons feel a lot like banelings. Nice if they hit, but generally ineffective.
TvT, I feel is actually the worst offender. Marine tank dominates the MU, and in pro games you often see silly displays of marine absurdity where one player has 10 marines and 10 siege tanks vs his opponent with 30 marines. It doesn't make sense that the 30 marines win the fight when looking at the cost of the armies, but they do... because they're marines...
So I ask: Are Marines OP? And if they are, why isn't Blizzard doing anything about it?
show me a pro game where 30 marines beat TEN siege tanks and 10 marines
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I don't understand the point of the OP. Its nothing like the mutalisk one, which actually had some discussion about HotS. All this one seems like is a balance whine about marines.
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you know, some d00d tried to do some crazy 10 marine all in at the 6.5 min mark last night, my nat had finnished and i had to crawlers, one at the bottom of the ramp and one close to the nat hatch. i had about 6 lings without speed and a total of probably 34 drones. I defended by grabbing my lings, queen and drones from nat, and baited him in with the lings, got the surround with the drones / lings and let the crawlers and queens clean up, i lost about 5 drones and all the lings, but his marines were made in to mince meat. He also tried to rush again, i guess this d00d thought it would be cute to do like a 10 rax. so i built a 2 more spines, dropped a bling nest, got ling speed and kept getting the surround on his rines while they attempting to attack, kept moving the crawlers forward, made more queens (1 more at each hatch and proceeded to creep tumor and move the spine lines up more and more. after about 5 mins, i decided it was nydus time, I scouted his base, saw a nice little patch where he couldnt easily get to, nydus bombed his ass with tons of bling took down his main. and then nydus'd his nat, game over bro.
ok, now that im done my rant, you should look in to tactics that use and utilize retard magnets, not to rip off destiny, but the strategy is a sound one. if you can get his rines to move in a straight line or not be clumped up, your lings do more damage because they can get a surround. and thusly making them a little more cost effective. you can also yous blings when you have the surround just because hey, blowing up stuff with green stuff is cool :D
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On November 01 2011 23:15 BlitzerSC wrote:
Marines are good only when there are medivacs on the field. Without medivac support marines are shit.
You're playing Terran wrong.
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everything can be OP if you look at it through the "my race is shit" glasses
---> forcefields
---> infestor broodlord
---> marines
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On November 01 2011 23:27 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:15 BlitzerSC wrote:
Marines are good only when there are medivacs on the field. Without medivac support marines are shit. You're playing Terran wrong.
I'm pretty sure you are playing terran right and owning Korean Ladder
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A lot of the argument against the WarHound is that Marines are already more than enough AA for TvZ, and even Thors are mostly unnecessary so why are they trying to make a better Thor?
Well, the Warhound is a new unit for a mech focussed style of play. If your going mech, u wont get many marines. So the "Marines are more than enough" argument is kinda out of place. And as u said Thors are nearly unnecessary because theyre pretty bad against the unit they should be good against, the mutalisk. So i think blizzards intention in TvZ is to offer mech players a better unit to deal with mutas.
Protoss has it slightly better with the Colossus, unfortunately, that unit is just badly designed in general. HTs with storm are effective when the storm lands, unfortunately Marines move so fast, they often only take 30-40 damage before making it out, leaving them with 5hp, but their full DPS. Archons feel a lot like banelings. Nice if they hit, but generally ineffective.
A pretty difficult point, imo the matchup is balanced, I think it really comes down to better control and macro, so in other words who's the better player and i don't think anything is wrong with that.
But well, thats an intuition based argument, don't really have any kind of data to back that up.
TvT, I feel is actually the worst offender. Marine tank dominates the MU, and in pro games you often see silly displays of marine absurdity where one player has 10 marines and 10 siege tanks vs his opponent with 30 marines. It doesn't make sense that the 30 marines win the fight when looking at the cost of the armies, but they do... because they're marines...
Well thats kinda outdated, regarding the last tournaments at least half of the Terran players switched to a mech oriented style with hellion/tank/viking, with a good amount of success.
If your going Marine Tank in TvT its comparable to TvP , i think Marine Tank is only superior if u control ur army very well and are active about drops etc. Of course this requires a certain amount of apm and control , but if ur able to do it u should get an advantage.
So I ask: Are Marines OP? And if they are, why isn't Blizzard doing anything about it?
I dont think so. As pointed out above, if ur good at controlling your marines, at macro and control, yes they may seem OP.
If you have a bad control and run your marines straight into the enemy tanks , your marines wont look very OP.
So it all comes down to player skill and i think that's how it should be. (And besides that i think the Marine is a very good example of how units should be designed)
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On November 01 2011 23:25 darkscream wrote:
Yes, Marines are OP. Because of their speed and rate of fire you can micro them through any situation better than any other unit in the game. Their skill ceiling is literally so high that no human will ever utilize them to their greatest extent. Not only this but because of their small size, you can fit so many of them in an area that the DPS the Terran player can have for utilizing the correct terrain features is huge.
However without that godlike micro they are a balanced unit, and can be killed with the right micro/tech. I just worry that one day 10 years in the future, when the skill ceiling is hit for most other units, the marine will exceed all expectations by perfectly splitting, stimming and stutter stepping.
Alright so your argument is useless....with godlike micro they are imba??? haha my god some people are sad, with god like micro I guess that player isn't better then his opponent. I love how you say it's easy to micro a marine, it's really is hilarious. You probably play protoss and the hardest thing you have to do is blink micro correct? Just stop shitting on a race because you lose.
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On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke
Just do what Stephano does and keep 6 or so lings with 2 banes to stop drops cold.
He doesn't seem to have a problem with them.
All you have to do is not go straight to the crying board, but figure out how to deal with it.
Just like when in the beta people thought banelings were too strong then people found out how to split marines.
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On November 01 2011 23:00 jinixxx123 wrote:
no i disagree that they are overpowered. And btw, every race has there own mineral dump.
Yeh, but Marines are a ranged mineral dump that can hit ground and air with high DPS and can also stim. Zerglings and Zealots are melee.
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they are op if you let them be op
if you let them get 3-3 as zerg and try to fight them with only lings and mutas (or even roaches)
or as toss if you dont build ht's or colossi
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I don't understand why zergs have trouble with drops...throw down 3 spind in ur mins and why do you actually have to have all your units in a ball? you should have map control so you will know if a push is coming. So just keep lings in your base/bases.
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Calgary26003 Posts
This is not proper construction for an in-depth discussion.
Stop making "Are ____ OP" threads.
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EPT
