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Obviously inspired by the Muta thread.
A lot of the argument against the WarHound is that Marines are already more than enough AA for TvZ, and even Thors are mostly unnecessary so why are they trying to make a better Thor?
I personally have hated the Marine since beta. To keep from ranting, there is simply no reason to not make marines in SC2, even when faced with their "counter units" they are so cheap and effective that they should always be made.
As Zerg, currently, nothing in the game trumps marines. Banelings are mostly ineffective and infestors require 150 energy to kill X marines. Both units being high in gas cost and limited in their utility.
Protoss has it slightly better with the Colossus, unfortunately, that unit is just badly designed in general. HTs with storm are effective when the storm lands, unfortunately Marines move so fast, they often only take 30-40 damage before making it out, leaving them with 5hp, but their full DPS. Archons feel a lot like banelings. Nice if they hit, but generally ineffective.
TvT, I feel is actually the worst offender. Marine tank dominates the MU, and in pro games you often see silly displays of marine absurdity where one player has 10 marines and 10 siege tanks vs his opponent with 30 marines. It doesn't make sense that the 30 marines win the fight when looking at the cost of the armies, but they do... because they're marines...
So I ask: Are Marines OP? And if they are, why isn't Blizzard doing anything about it?
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While its extremely annoying that marines only cost orbital energy, I think they make for some great game mechanics.
Marines are so dependent on micro that it adds extra to the game.
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TvZ : energy > money, and infestors can kill so many marines so quickly it's unbelievable. Also, losing just a few marines at key times will lose a T the game outright to mutalingbling. I don't thing some people quite understand how much this matchup is on a knife-edge. Pro terrans make it a lot easier than it actually is.
TvP: 30-40 damage is still huge, and archons are extremely effective if your positioning is at all good.
TvT: I guess this showcases the worst of the marine, but realistically, in your example especially, if the opposing player is positioned even slightly well (ie. sieged), it shouldn't be a problem.
I think marines are an exciting unit with a lot of micro opportunity. Anybody who has watched Polt stim into a seemingly gargantuan army, just to make a perfect split and take out the opponents siege tanks knows just how exciting they are, and equally that they are not overpowered.
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Are we really gonna make a thread for every unit now?
Tomorrow it's Are *insert random unit* Overpowered?
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In the scheme of things you could claim any unit is OP given the right circumstances. Sure having 20 marines is great DPS but if 2 burrowed banelings go off then its something like 750 minerals for 100-50 and doesn't that make burrowed banelings OP now?
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On November 01 2011 22:55 Kar98 wrote:
In the scheme of things you could claim any unit is OP given the right circumstances. Sure having 20 marines is great DPS but if 2 burrowed banelings go off then its something like 750 minerals for 100-50 and doesn't that make burrowed banelings OP now?
not really a valid comparison considering the amount of stealth detection terran has at his disposal yet refuses to use.
A more valid comparison would be banelings without speed vs marines with stim
gateway units vs conc shell
zerglings vs blue flame hellions.
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I don't know about overpowered, but I'll call them the most versatile, cost effective unit in the game. I play random.
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On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Obviously inspired by the Muta thread.
A lot of the argument against the WarHound is that Marines are already more than enough AA for TvZ, and even Thors are mostly unnecessary so why are they trying to make a better Thor?
I personally have hated the Marine since beta. To keep from ranting, there is simply no reason to not make marines in SC2, even when faced with their "counter units" they are so cheap and effective that they should always be made.
As Zerg, currently, nothing in the game trumps marines. Banelings are mostly ineffective and infestors require 150 energy to kill X marines. Both units being high in gas cost and limited in their utility.
Protoss has it slightly better with the Colossus, unfortunately, that unit is just badly designed in general. HTs with storm are effective when the storm lands, unfortunately Marines move so fast, they often only take 30-40 damage before making it out, leaving them with 5hp, but their full DPS. Archons feel a lot like banelings. Nice if they hit, but generally ineffective.
TvT, I feel is actually the worst offender. Marine tank dominates the MU, and in pro games you often see silly displays of marine absurdity where one player has 10 marines and 10 siege tanks vs his opponent with 30 marines. It doesn't make sense that the 30 marines win the fight when looking at the cost of the armies, but they do... because they're marines...
So I ask: Are Marines OP? And if they are, why isn't Blizzard doing anything about it?
Yes. Because they're afraid of removing combat shield? Why? I dunno, too lazy to balance after that?
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no i disagree that they are overpowered. And btw, every race has there own mineral dump.
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lol at your tvt example, i somehow skipped everything but the tvt argument but that makes ur thread invalid already so i dont bother reading the others :/
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8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke
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On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Banelings are mostly ineffective
are you sure you are playing starcraft 2?
zerg starts with 2 expansions by default. zerg is supposed to be a race that throws billions of weak units to his opponent.
however zerg throws banelings at you and 1 baneling always has a potential to kill 10 or more marines.
baneling does not suit the game. terran is supposed to be the defender. not zerg.
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I think marines are the best unit in the game, both in strength and in their design. They supplement the terran army so well and always make for a strong backbone, but are easily countered by themselves. They reward good unit control and have a million different uses.
That said, I think the game needs more "marines" and less "marauders and roaches". The role of the unit is fine and I wouldn't have it any other way. Tweak some numbers if you must, but do not change how the unit works.
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On November 01 2011 22:55 Jakkerr wrote:
Are we really gonna make a thread for every unit now?
Tomorrow it's Are *insert random unit* Overpowered?
I think this is actually a valid discussion.
On paper, the Marine seems like a very valid, balanced unit
HOWEVER
When put into the hands of a skilled player, the Marine is a unit that scales very well with both Macro and Micro ability, letting skilled players turn the Marine into a very powerful, potent unit that only costs 50 Minerals and 1 Supply.
I think the main problem that exists with the Marine is that the units that most efficiently counter them all rely upon AoE damage. In order to effectively "counter the marine" to prevent it from being overpowered, I think Protoss and Zerg need a cheap, efficient RANGED answer to the Marine, that is weak against say....Hellions.
Keep in mind this is all off the top of my head and not something I've put a great amount of thought into, but you can bet I will be today, so expect me to stick around this thread for a bit.
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Okay...
The Muta thread actually has a point about Blizzard and HotS. You're just saying that Terran has a unit that is useful in every matchup and therefore OP.
I don't even know.
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Probably should just dedicate a subsection of the forums to [D]Overpowered, too bad the site was just revamped...sarcasm
Marines are the most micro dependent unit in SC2, they are making a "better thor" to give mech more of a backbone against mass muta because until you get ghosts out, thors really aren't the greatest AA option when a competent zerg magic boxes.
I cannot believe you discuss tvz without the infestor lol, sling bane muta is to allow for mid-early late game survivability until infestors and hive tech, you can't micro against banelings while they're fungaled ><
I cannot believe you discuss tvp without sentries...wtf good is a colossus without forcefields to STOP marines from taking them out, you speak as if every matchup takes place in a unit tester without micro.
And TvT is really a mixed bag of tricks, obviously you can open differently and end up with rine tank scenarios like you mention, but the matchup hasn't been explored enough mech-wise post patch to discern "RINE OP"
We have a dedicated balance forum btw...
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in starcraft 1 terran turtles, in starcraft 2 zerg turtles. this is ridiculous.
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On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke
nice straw man , you pretend as if its marines alone with no tech.
This is a better argument, 1 overlord with 4 banes in it = GG all workers?
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On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Obviously inspired by the Muta thread.
so a thread were a zerg is sarcasticly asking if muta is OP because he is worried that there will be too much anti muta stuff inspired you to make a thread were you are genuinely crying about something being OP?
Anyway, hope this gets closed as its just a blant whine thread.
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I think part of the problem is that they scale so well with upgrades. You can build them at every stage of the game.
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I am not liking where these threads at starting to go.
The marine is a pivotal unit. To say they are "over powered" would be a bit of a stretch. They work in any good comp.. in masses or a few throughout the army.
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The unit in itself is fine, but when you get to the functions and mechanics of the game it becomes overpowered. Instant fire has been proven to make the unit a thousand times more efficient than say a Hydralisk who has a slowed projectile. Also the skill ceiling for Marines is far too high. With the same amount of skill I couldn't make an other unit as cost effective but that is blizzards fault for only letting Terran be so heavily rewarded on good micro skill. And finally clumping. It allows them to completely walk through units or buildings and renders a lot of its countering pretty useless. Other than that they are okay I suppose?
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Yeah, let's make a thread for every unit. Well, obviously this one is better than the mutalisk thread (mutalisks OP... only bronzies think that), but still... Marines aren't OP, at least not in the current metagame.
Yes it is OP, that theoretically speaking marines counter every nonflaggship unit in the game as long as they are controlled perfectly, but practically speaking, there is no human being in the world that has enough APM to even make them work against one of the splash units in the game, not to mention that most combat scenarios don't offer enough space to exectue this.
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On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke
Exactly. As Protoss, I got told I am OP because somehow my colossi, immortal, sentry, stalker army managed to kill his army of marines and marauders of less supply. This is after his tier one army held off my tier 2 army. Yes, I had to tech to tier 3 to kill his tier 1. Marines scale the hardest with upgrades of any unit. Only 2 upgrade routes will max them out. Stim makes each +1 attack worth straight money. Medvacs make each point of armor INCREDIBLE. Watch how many times casters get suprised when a zerg or protoss has to straight up overwhelm 1 medvac drop worth of 2/2 marine/mauarder to clean it up.
Stalkers gain about .7 dps per attack upgrade. Roaches gain 1 dps per upgrade. Go ahead and go find the numbers for a marine, I dare you.
Another QQ: I killed 38 scv's of this terrans in the push he repelled. Later in the game I was ahead by 33 workers, mining off the same number of bases, but he was only behind by about 200 total income. GG magical money unit that comes from the sky.
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The problem with marines is that they are so easy to mass, which is in partly due to the Terran reactors. Marines are weak, cheap throw away units but when put into the hands of a capable player, they are a force to be reckoned with.
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They are grossly overpowered but difficult to use. They are too good in 2 rax and 1/1/1, leading to these builds having way over 50% success rate in the past year in pro level games.
Marines are pretty awful vs stalker colossus and mech played well will destroy bio, but against Zerg and a charge lot composition, marines are amazing. They also deny all forms of scouting.
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SC2 needs more units like marines. Powerful and versatile, but efficient only when microed. For example, that new protoss harass unit was uninteresting as it felt like it's purpose was very strictly bound to certain role. 
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It is my firm belief that everything except protoss units are the most OP things in the game.
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I would really like to see 10 marines and 10 properly sieged and positioned tanks lose to 30 marines.
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Marine is best unit in game no doubt, it's also free and upgrades increases its strength absurdly.
I can't believe i posted in this troll thread ^^
User was warned for this post
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I think thisthread could have gone somewhere but the OP is not very well written at all. First off you pretty much only need 75 infestor energy because after that the zerglings cal kill marines extremely easily especially if they stimmed. Second, Protoss has the best AOE units in the game with the Collossus, Archons, and HT with storm and if you do ANY of those things you will evaporate marines. Then you talk about doing 30-40 damage to a unit that starts with 45 then at max has 55 hp like it's a bad thing. And after playing TvT so many times I don't actually think 30 marines could kill 10 marines and ten siege tanks, especially if even 1 or 2 of them were sieged. Try baneling bombs though, even if they are mostly ineffective your opponent will be scared to move out ever again.
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Sc2 needs more units LIKE the marine. The fact that people argue they have no counter is completely stupid and makes me hate how some people view sc2 should be more like a turn based game where you're just supposed to counter unit compositions over having good control.
And wtf? The warhound is there for mech play.
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lol according to your argument I can always argue say zerglings are overpowered.
ZvZ, you have 10 more speedlings than your opponent, you win!
ZvT, you run into main and kill infrastructure, you win!
ZvP, you fungal blink stalker army and surround with speedlings, you win!
I mean, every race has its core units that are suppose to be used in every matchup to a great extent, just because marines are effective in your "situations" does not make them overpowered. Marines are GOOD if in the hands of a good player, if you just 1A then ...
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They are not OP...
Come on, how are marines OP? The only viable AA that Terrans have is now OP? You have to micro those marines against everything. Without micro and they are worthless. The thing that we need for the other two races are more micro options that can turn the battles to their favour. We already have mutas for zerg that you can micro really well but I can't think of any for protoss, blink stalkers?
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Too much dmg on too much mobility on too much hp, while being cheap. What is not to like?
Its basically a better hydra with the following advantages over it:
1. faster than a hydra in battle situations
2. more damage than a hydra (cost for cost, marines beat hydras in dmg output)
3. more hp than hydras (cost for cost, they have more hp than hydras)
4. no projectile, therefore better targeting -> no overkill
5. they dont cost 50 gas
The only disadvantage that you could bring up is their range, but in actuality, if you send a marine against a hydra, the marine will start shooting first because marines have the better attack animation.
6. better attack animation (helps with kiting and chasing and overall microing them)
Yes they are Op and are the core problem of why we dont see much more diverse gameplay out of terrans in all the matchups:
TvT: Marine Tank
TvP: MMM
TvZ: Marine Tank
The helion wasnt even touched until a few months ago. Ghosts werent even touched until a few weeks ago.
Ravens arent being touched at all, even though with the buff they should be quite formidable.
All standard styles resolve around massing up the marines. Bomber tried to win against Idra with pure marines (even without medivacs). And he almost succeeded.
Nerf marines.
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On November 01 2011 23:02 [thork] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Banelings are mostly ineffective are you sure you are playing starcraft 2? zerg starts with 2 expansions by default. zerg is supposed to be a race that throws billions of weak units to his opponent. however zerg throws banelings at you and 1 baneling always has a potential to kill 10 or more marines. baneling does not suit the game. terran is supposed to be the defender. not zerg.
Are you sure you're playing Starcraft II? A game with 2rax as the standard opening against Zerg because of how good marines are. A game where marines and bunkers, along with pulling every scv, basically wins an extremely high number of games in which the strategy is implemented while Zerg's early game units are extremely weak in comparison.
Only the best Zergs hold off stuff like that, and that's not how it should be if they want to balance around the entire playerbase, as they've stated multiple times.
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On November 01 2011 23:09 Ansinjunger wrote:
I would really like to see 10 marines and 10 properly sieged and positioned tanks lose to 30 marines.
For the sake of discussion, I'm going to point out that you're only talking about the mirror matchup, where both players have Marines. Look at the Protoss or Zerg examples?
On November 01 2011 23:07 Big J wrote:
Yeah, let's make a thread for every unit. Well, obviously this one is better than the mutalisk thread (mutalisks OP... only bronzies think that), but still... Marines aren't OP, at least not in the current metagame.
Yes it is OP, that theoretically speaking marines counter every nonflaggship unit in the game as long as they are controlled perfectly, but practically speaking, there is no human being in the world that has enough APM to even make them work against one of the splash units in the game, not to mention that most combat scenarios don't offer enough space to exectue this.
Have you seen Polt play TvT?
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Marines have too much dps imo. I've always thought they needed to do something to the marine, like nerf stim maybe. Unfortunately it would probably break the matchups
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On November 01 2011 23:04 jinixxx123 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke nice straw man , you pretend as if its marines alone with no tech. This is a better argument, 1 overlord with 4 banes in it = GG all workers?
Hey ease up he is just saying how he feels. I have been super pissed when a medivac or two full of marines drops my expansion and it is dead by the time my banes get there to deal with it. I think this is something that 100% of zergs have thought at one time or another. That being said I don't think marines are overpowered.
From my experience the best way to deal with drops is hit them before they drop. Otherwise your going to lose a lot of stuff .
Marines are fine they just have great synergy with the rest of the terran army which I think is why other races feel helpless a lot of the time. I'm no terran player but I think marines are alright... had to deal with at sometimes but not overpowered.
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They seem ridiculous in some situations, though completely normal in others. Yes as a long time SC fan it kinda hurts my soul to see Terran bio units be so versatile and better than mech, but that doesn't mean they are overpowered. The balance designers definitely have an extremely difficult task sometimes. The extremely effective kiting may be leading to this inconsistent performance, but they have designed and balanced everything around that. It seems to me that the call is the designers' not the balance team's.
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Marines are good only when there are medivacs on the field. Without medivac support marines are shit.
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Pretty sure marines suck shit....only good if you can actually micro decent. Also no...they aren't that good vs muta harass. Go watch IdrA vs Bomber and shit like that it's just ridic. Also people complain about drops but how about you drop banelings on every terran base at the same time? Isn't that GG?
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marines? fuck yes they are overpowered.
the damage per cost is the best there is for the most accessible unit out there, not to mention the counters to marines that all cost heavy gas.
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Marines pretty much beat everything cost efficiently, 8 marines (400 minerals) vs 1 Archon (100 minerals 300 gas) Marines own face. 3 marines vs 1 stalker, marines own face, 2 marines vs 1 zealot marines own face etc. obviously overpowered
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I think its worth mentioning we are all sort of implicitly talking about upgraded marines. It might even be worth asking if the "real" problem is stim, not the marine itself.
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On November 01 2011 23:16 VTPerfect wrote:
Marines pretty much beat everything cost efficiently, 8 marines (400 minerals) vs 1 Archon (100 minerals 300 gas) Marines own face. 3 marines vs 1 stalker, marines own face, 2 marines vs 1 zealot marines own face etc. obviously overpowered
No not overpowered, you just play protoss.
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On November 01 2011 23:05 Lorizean wrote:
I think part of the problem is that they scale so well with upgrades. You can build them at every stage of the game.
So lings,roaches, zealots and stalkers are only used in the first 5 minutes of the game?
I disagree that marines are great and usually cost-effective against colossi,ht,archons,chargelots with armor ups and GS, banelings, infestors, tanks, BF hellions...
They have great dps for cost but if 15 marines dont scare away mutas TvZ is impossible.
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On November 01 2011 23:02 [thork] wrote:
zerg starts with 2 expansions by default. .
Are you sure you're playing Starcaft 2? If a zerg fast expands he is going to get bunker rushed or have to deal with some sort of ultra early marine pressure. If the bunker rush is successful, than GG, with literally no risk if it fails. Marines are a pretty good unit to have. Why would you build anything else?
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On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
As Zerg, currently, nothing in the game trumps marines. Banelings are mostly ineffective
I was eating a delicious sausage sandwich while I was reading this, and it caused me to splurt it all over my screen.
You owe me a sammich and a screen cleaner. And a mouth-ful of tea.
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Everyone who complains should be forced to stream 30 ladder games as whatever race they're using. they make it seem like marines are so good that any random person can start using them and make it to code a in gsl.
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There have been hundreds of threads like this, most of which are closed now.
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@KobyKat and itsmedudeman
I agree that game needs more skill oriented units, although don't bet on it happening with blizzard being lobbied by 8 years old apparently lol. But if it were to happen the Marine, whether good for skill oriented players, still needs a slight tweaking.
Anyways, the problem is that the counters to marines are all well after you can get a large amount of marines. All Marine counters are absurdly gas demanding, that isn't very balanced if you asked me. While you can get banelings early, you need a overwhelming amount of them in order to make them KILL Marines, they are the least cost effective unit in the game by far. Now I know someone will say "INFESTZORZ!!!A1" but also insanely gas heavy not to mention the teching and upgrades, but now that cuts into Mutalisks, which are an absolute MUST HAVE in ZvT. The rest follow my argument, long techs and gas dependency.
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Haha I love Zerg and Toss QQ...hope this thread gets closed what a joke. The never ending circle of imba QQ
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Is the marine overpowered? Absolutely (Blizzard have called the stimmed marine the most broken thing in the game). Should it be changed significantly? Hell no (although, IMO, combat shields should probably go, late game marines shouldn't be that awesome)! The marine is absolutely godly in the right hands. But to most players they are a weak, ineffectual unit because they require a fair bit of micro to do well. A unit whose strength depends solely on micro is a GREAT idea and one that has given us some of the coolest moments in SC2 so far.
I don't think a very slight nerf (eg: remove combat shields, reduce attack speed a little) would hurt the unit (it's still incredible and costs only barracks time from the mid-game onwards). In fact I think removing combat shield/replacing it with a range upgrade (to it's current range, not extra) would be good for the game overall. Even reducing the marine's attack damage by 1 would balance the unit.
The problem if you nerf it (other than taking away an upgrade) is that then Terran early-game frickin' sucks, because there's no medics in SC2. You can't heal marines until you have medivacs out. vs Protoss I don't think this matters at all, but vs Zerg it's suddenly hard to see Terran ever winning.
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On November 01 2011 23:16 VTPerfect wrote:
Marines pretty much beat everything cost efficiently, 8 marines (400 minerals) vs 1 Archon (100 minerals 300 gas) Marines own face. 3 marines vs 1 stalker, marines own face, 2 marines vs 1 zealot marines own face etc. obviously overpowered
Ye, waste your time microing 2 marines vs 1 zealot for 40+ seconds when you can be macroing... WORTH IT!
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The only reason the Muta thread was warranted at all was because of Muta tech in ZvP where if you get enough Mutas without being build order countered you can overrun every single anti air unit toss can throw at it and if you did get build order countered by stargate tech then you can switch into ground heavy armies and the phoenixes don't really add a lot to the protoss army.
Mutas in every other matchup were fine it was only a Problem for protoss and a pretty big problem at that.
Making this Marine thread isn't the same deal. Going Marines in any matchup isn't going to automatically win you the game because they cannot be countered. Even if you look at the 2 rax rush. you have to play insanely greedy in order to outright lose to a 2 rax rush. Like even if you go hatch first you can hold off a 2 rax that says a lot about why they aren't overpowered....
And Protoss and Terran don't have problems with marines because Mech CAN still fight biomech and pure bio and win and Protoss don't get bother by the marines, it's more the Marauders but the Marauder isn't OP either. Just a terribly designed unit like the Collosus.
Another thing to take note of as why marines aren't OP is that most air units are either faster or outrange them making them very ineffective anti-air in certain situations. One of the main reasons why the Goliath is so missed is because of it's great range+ decent mobility compared to the thor making it very good for defending and dealing with threats like Carriers and Mutalisks without pulling away from you ground army like vikings and making you auotlose if you commit too much to getting AA.
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infestors and ling bling deals with larger number of marines perfectly fine, and the warhound will now present a reason to not make as many marines (why would you when you have a stronger anti-air unit). Hopefully you realize the you're wrong, accept that, and stop posting crap on the forums that just makes a messy thread that is no use to anyone.
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The marine is a micro-intensive unit, and while it usually is the backbone of the terran army, it must be supported with other terran units like the medivac in order to be useful.
Banelings, fungals and storms do counter marines, it is only at the highest levels where players are able to maximize the effectiveness of marines through superior micro, where marine-splitting and storm-dodging becomes common. Second, the powerful marine balls seen in pro games derive much of their power from upgrades, medivac support, and occasionally other support units. Without medivacs, the marine ball grows weaker and weaker each time it stims, while the zerg and protoss have regenerating hp/shields.
In my opinion, the marine is not overpowered, but it enjoys huge synergy with units such as medivacs. In lower leagues, marines are also not that effective since they cannot be microed to full effectiveness.
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I came here to comment that the OP reads like a thinly veiled balance whine but the comments in the thread.. bad posts beget bad posts I believe.
Marines are not overpowered in my zerg opinion. But they are the most versatile and (Personal belief) best unit in the game.
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On November 01 2011 23:14 Shrimpy949 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:04 jinixxx123 wrote:On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke nice straw man , you pretend as if its marines alone with no tech. This is a better argument, 1 overlord with 4 banes in it = GG all workers? Hey ease up he is just saying how he feels. I have been super pissed when a medivac or two full of marines drops my expansion and it is dead by the time my banes get there to deal with it. I think this is something that 100% of zergs have thought at one time or another. That being said I don't think marines are overpowered. From my experience the best way to deal with drops is hit them before they drop. Otherwise your going to lose a lot of stuff . Marines are fine they just have great synergy with the rest of the terran army which I think is why other races feel helpless a lot of the time. I'm no terran player but I think marines are alright... had to deal with at sometimes but not overpowered.
Easing up isn't really the point of the thread. There are a lot of things that piss players off, but we aren't supposed to make a thread everytime we encounter a strategy that we can't handle.
I'm not going after you though. You seem to have the right attitude about things. Marines are a good unit and it can be hard dealing with them. But you can deal with them using strategy and smarter play, some of which turn marines into goo before they can even fire a shot. Its just like the muta thread. Muta's are really strong and terrans have a tough time with them, but there are ways to handle them and working on a better strategy and learning how to deal with them is better for you AND the game than making more stupid threads trying to get blizzard to mess up the game even more because people like to bitch.
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Yes, Marines are OP. Because of their speed and rate of fire you can micro them through any situation better than any other unit in the game. Their skill ceiling is literally so high that no human will ever utilize them to their greatest extent. Not only this but because of their small size, you can fit so many of them in an area that the DPS the Terran player can have for utilizing the correct terrain features is huge.
However without that godlike micro they are a balanced unit, and can be killed with the right micro/tech. I just worry that one day 10 years in the future, when the skill ceiling is hit for most other units, the marine will exceed all expectations by perfectly splitting, stimming and stutter stepping.
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Balance discussion is so stupid.. game is fine enjoy it !
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On November 01 2011 23:00 jinixxx123 wrote:
no i disagree that they are overpowered. And btw, every race has there own mineral dump.
in pvz the only mineral dump is cannons..
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On November 01 2011 22:49 Jermstuddog wrote:
Obviously inspired by the Muta thread.
A lot of the argument against the WarHound is that Marines are already more than enough AA for TvZ, and even Thors are mostly unnecessary so why are they trying to make a better Thor?
I personally have hated the Marine since beta. To keep from ranting, there is simply no reason to not make marines in SC2, even when faced with their "counter units" they are so cheap and effective that they should always be made.
As Zerg, currently, nothing in the game trumps marines. Banelings are mostly ineffective and infestors require 150 energy to kill X marines. Both units being high in gas cost and limited in their utility.
Protoss has it slightly better with the Colossus, unfortunately, that unit is just badly designed in general. HTs with storm are effective when the storm lands, unfortunately Marines move so fast, they often only take 30-40 damage before making it out, leaving them with 5hp, but their full DPS. Archons feel a lot like banelings. Nice if they hit, but generally ineffective.
TvT, I feel is actually the worst offender. Marine tank dominates the MU, and in pro games you often see silly displays of marine absurdity where one player has 10 marines and 10 siege tanks vs his opponent with 30 marines. It doesn't make sense that the 30 marines win the fight when looking at the cost of the armies, but they do... because they're marines...
So I ask: Are Marines OP? And if they are, why isn't Blizzard doing anything about it?
show me a pro game where 30 marines beat TEN siege tanks and 10 marines
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I don't understand the point of the OP. Its nothing like the mutalisk one, which actually had some discussion about HotS. All this one seems like is a balance whine about marines.
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you know, some d00d tried to do some crazy 10 marine all in at the 6.5 min mark last night, my nat had finnished and i had to crawlers, one at the bottom of the ramp and one close to the nat hatch. i had about 6 lings without speed and a total of probably 34 drones. I defended by grabbing my lings, queen and drones from nat, and baited him in with the lings, got the surround with the drones / lings and let the crawlers and queens clean up, i lost about 5 drones and all the lings, but his marines were made in to mince meat. He also tried to rush again, i guess this d00d thought it would be cute to do like a 10 rax. so i built a 2 more spines, dropped a bling nest, got ling speed and kept getting the surround on his rines while they attempting to attack, kept moving the crawlers forward, made more queens (1 more at each hatch and proceeded to creep tumor and move the spine lines up more and more. after about 5 mins, i decided it was nydus time, I scouted his base, saw a nice little patch where he couldnt easily get to, nydus bombed his ass with tons of bling took down his main. and then nydus'd his nat, game over bro.
ok, now that im done my rant, you should look in to tactics that use and utilize retard magnets, not to rip off destiny, but the strategy is a sound one. if you can get his rines to move in a straight line or not be clumped up, your lings do more damage because they can get a surround. and thusly making them a little more cost effective. you can also yous blings when you have the surround just because hey, blowing up stuff with green stuff is cool :D
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On November 01 2011 23:15 BlitzerSC wrote:
Marines are good only when there are medivacs on the field. Without medivac support marines are shit.
You're playing Terran wrong.
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everything can be OP if you look at it through the "my race is shit" glasses
---> forcefields
---> infestor broodlord
---> marines
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On November 01 2011 23:27 VirgilSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2011 23:15 BlitzerSC wrote:
Marines are good only when there are medivacs on the field. Without medivac support marines are shit. You're playing Terran wrong.
I'm pretty sure you are playing terran right and owning Korean Ladder
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A lot of the argument against the WarHound is that Marines are already more than enough AA for TvZ, and even Thors are mostly unnecessary so why are they trying to make a better Thor?
Well, the Warhound is a new unit for a mech focussed style of play. If your going mech, u wont get many marines. So the "Marines are more than enough" argument is kinda out of place. And as u said Thors are nearly unnecessary because theyre pretty bad against the unit they should be good against, the mutalisk. So i think blizzards intention in TvZ is to offer mech players a better unit to deal with mutas.
Protoss has it slightly better with the Colossus, unfortunately, that unit is just badly designed in general. HTs with storm are effective when the storm lands, unfortunately Marines move so fast, they often only take 30-40 damage before making it out, leaving them with 5hp, but their full DPS. Archons feel a lot like banelings. Nice if they hit, but generally ineffective.
A pretty difficult point, imo the matchup is balanced, I think it really comes down to better control and macro, so in other words who's the better player and i don't think anything is wrong with that.
But well, thats an intuition based argument, don't really have any kind of data to back that up.
TvT, I feel is actually the worst offender. Marine tank dominates the MU, and in pro games you often see silly displays of marine absurdity where one player has 10 marines and 10 siege tanks vs his opponent with 30 marines. It doesn't make sense that the 30 marines win the fight when looking at the cost of the armies, but they do... because they're marines...
Well thats kinda outdated, regarding the last tournaments at least half of the Terran players switched to a mech oriented style with hellion/tank/viking, with a good amount of success.
If your going Marine Tank in TvT its comparable to TvP , i think Marine Tank is only superior if u control ur army very well and are active about drops etc. Of course this requires a certain amount of apm and control , but if ur able to do it u should get an advantage.
So I ask: Are Marines OP? And if they are, why isn't Blizzard doing anything about it?
I dont think so. As pointed out above, if ur good at controlling your marines, at macro and control, yes they may seem OP.
If you have a bad control and run your marines straight into the enemy tanks , your marines wont look very OP.
So it all comes down to player skill and i think that's how it should be. (And besides that i think the Marine is a very good example of how units should be designed)
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On November 01 2011 23:25 darkscream wrote:
Yes, Marines are OP. Because of their speed and rate of fire you can micro them through any situation better than any other unit in the game. Their skill ceiling is literally so high that no human will ever utilize them to their greatest extent. Not only this but because of their small size, you can fit so many of them in an area that the DPS the Terran player can have for utilizing the correct terrain features is huge.
However without that godlike micro they are a balanced unit, and can be killed with the right micro/tech. I just worry that one day 10 years in the future, when the skill ceiling is hit for most other units, the marine will exceed all expectations by perfectly splitting, stimming and stutter stepping.
Alright so your argument is useless....with godlike micro they are imba??? haha my god some people are sad, with god like micro I guess that player isn't better then his opponent. I love how you say it's easy to micro a marine, it's really is hilarious. You probably play protoss and the hardest thing you have to do is blink micro correct? Just stop shitting on a race because you lose.
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On November 01 2011 23:02 RxBorG wrote:
8 marines dropped at a Zerg's 4th or 5th makes them so cost effective it's absurd. the same amount of the same tier unit for Zerg (zergling) can't be anywhere that effective. 16 lings won't kill a planetary and an orbital will lift up. The marine is the best tier 1 unit even into the late game. When Zerg has tier 3 they become much less mobile and drops become so effective and marines are so cheap that it's a joke
Just do what Stephano does and keep 6 or so lings with 2 banes to stop drops cold.
He doesn't seem to have a problem with them.
All you have to do is not go straight to the crying board, but figure out how to deal with it.
Just like when in the beta people thought banelings were too strong then people found out how to split marines.
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On November 01 2011 23:00 jinixxx123 wrote:
no i disagree that they are overpowered. And btw, every race has there own mineral dump.
Yeh, but Marines are a ranged mineral dump that can hit ground and air with high DPS and can also stim. Zerglings and Zealots are melee.
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they are op if you let them be op
if you let them get 3-3 as zerg and try to fight them with only lings and mutas (or even roaches)
or as toss if you dont build ht's or colossi
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I don't understand why zergs have trouble with drops...throw down 3 spind in ur mins and why do you actually have to have all your units in a ball? you should have map control so you will know if a push is coming. So just keep lings in your base/bases.
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Calgary25980 Posts
This is not proper construction for an in-depth discussion.
Stop making "Are ____ OP" threads.
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EPT
