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I am inclined to make this thread due to the widespread usage of the word MOBA and to reveal the ignorance behind the people who perpetuate this term.
I am not a grammar nazi, and I will address the most popular arguments against not using the MOBA term to describe the popular games including DotA1/2, League of Legends, Heroes of Newerth, Bloodline Champions, Demigod, SotiS, etc...
Everything in this thread will be as factual as possible with many references.
The term MOBA was originated by Steve Feak, former beta test and help developer for DotA1. He next moved onto Riot Games to develop League of Legends:
http://www.enotes.com/topic/Multiplayer_online_battle_arena#cite_note-0
One of the reasons MOBA is such a popular term to use is because people need a genre to describe these type of games. Starcraft is a RTS, Warcraft is a RTS, Counter-Strike is a FPS, Quake is FPS, Heroes of Might and Magic is a turn based strategy game. This is a basic need of language function and I am not saying we don't need a term, we certainly do, especially with the advent of DotA 2 by Valve [ an enormous e-sports and video game company ]
The term MOBA was created and then popularized by a man named Jeff ' Hunter_ ' Hunter. He created a website shortly after the beta release of Heroes of Newerth called Mobagamers.com. This website served as a conglomerate for articles from HoN, DotA, LoL, and other games. Some of the first articles were general tips on how to succeed in all 3 games. However, just like everything else Hunter has ever touched, it has been a scam and a failure. http://www.playdota.com/forums/3944/heroes-newerth/#post46546
Hunter was involved in DXD and other small scale US leagues and tournaments. One of the only events my team ever entered in that was led by hunter was the DXD-TGL Battle for the Throne. It had many top american teams like eMg, Pandemic, Feeding Frenzy, etc... The website is actually still up somehow: league.totalgamingnetwork.com/battleforthethrone
Here's the gotfrag interview for the tournament:
http://www.gotfrag.com/dota/story/39920/
'This is just the first in a series of bi-monthly tournaments. We are going to be kicking this one off and our partners at MyIS are using this tournament as a guide for the future tournaments in DotA for DXD. '
There was never another tournament run, let alone a bi-monthly basis.
The tournament never finished, bogus Asian teams were cited as winners by Hunter and he would not give a official response because it was not ' in the interest of DXD '.
If you only click one link: http://tinyurl.com/6y22zcm
[plaintext: mymym.com/en/news/18570.html ]
Report from a guy who had FULL ADMIN rights for Hunter's websites. It turns out not only is Hunter a scammer, bm'er, and shady guy. He's also very possibly a pedophile, or at the very least has child porn on his computer. He has never paid any team on schedule or in full amount.
Even more frightening:
http://www.playdota.com/forums/blogs/spedmunki/948/jeff-hunter_-hunter/
' On a more frightening note: before locking down all of his profiles (which he recklessly shared all over the internet), I took a peek at his Facebook page. He listed his profession as a public school IT admin....he must have felt like a kid in a candy shop! Wonder if he drove his molest-o-van to school?'
So by using the term MOBA, you are using a term proliferated by an event scammer, tournament-destroyer, and pedophile. And in technical definitions you are not even using a term that differentiates itself from other games:
On August 16 2011 11:35 paper wrote:
MOBA -- Multiplayer Online Battle Arena
What competitive game isn't multiplayer, online, and takes on some sort of battle? The first three words apply to nearly every single online game that pits players against each other (obviously). The fourth word, arena, doesn't even describe the DotA-genre. Using that word implies an all-hostile area that dismisses DotA's territorial control and lane-pushing among its many facets of gameplay. Even RTSRPG would be a better (yet still lacking) acronym. If anything, use DotA as a genre of its own, or use its original form, AoS (Aeon of Strife). Please help stop the widespread use of MOBA!
The point of this post is not to find a replacement for MOBA, it is more important that MOBA stops being used. My humble suggestion is to refer to the genre as DotA-games or alternatives that TeamLiquid users have come up with: ARTS, TARPS. Please refer to the hon/dota thread.
Finally, to further show Hunter_'s zeal to exploit new and underdeveloped endeavors:
Hunter actually has an account on TL here and has started a topic after the huge explosion of SC2.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=119237
Not only did he delete the OP [ because he's a shady fucker ] but he never tried interacting with the TL community again after he quickly realized people who knew his bullshit before were calling him on it.
+ Show Spoiler [About me] +I picked up dota sometime in 2005-6 and eventually played competitively with a group of friends I taught how to play from scratch. We were able to take a few games off top NA teams among others, and as such we played in a lot of leagues. I personally made it a goal of mine to make it into all the top individual leagues and it was when I was applying for DXD-I on east that I found about hunter and his scams. Later when playing in IHCS and IDEC lots of teams that played in US tournaments shared sentiments about not wanting to play in tournaments created by Hunter or DXD.
If you still want to use the term MOBA, then ok nobody can really force you to stop. But at least now you will know why there is a legitimate claim for people asking you not to use it. Please try to imagine this scenario for any other game or genre of music you enjoy. DotA-like games are in their infancy and its still not too late to stop the use of MOBA and use something else without negative or elementary connotations.
If I can make a dumb analogy, compare this to something like MMA fighting which is relatively new. If it somehow came out that a pedophile scammer coined the term Mixed Martial Arts, made websites with thousands of hits, and organized tournaments, it would probably be named something else.
I'm looking at you, Complexity's MOBA weekly podcast.
Edit:
There is an opportunity to use a word other than MOBA while the genre is still being developed. A poll on TL itself show that MOBA is not even the most popular term. There are a lot of reasons to not use it. You are essentially identifying yourself with someone who is trash because you are too lazy to use another term which has no negative connotations and is more technically correct in every way. Unless you honestly believe the best name people can come up with is MOBA.
My argument is not that Hunter = Trash therefore Moba = Trash.
Ask yourself why you use the term MOBA. Is there some huge barrier stopping you from using another term, that's more than likely to be more correct in every regard? Your answer is probably that you are too lazy or uninformed to think of anything else.
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It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything.
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This has been discussed to death, you bring nothing new. This is an ad hominem argument - if a serial killer claims A, it doesn't disprove A.
RIOT is using the term MOBA differently from the way it was first defined and there's a regular Dota/HoN/LoL show called MOBA Weekly with representatives and guests from all the games.
You should have posted here: MOBA/ARTS/Dota, does it really matter?
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What I got from this thread
reasons not to use a term:
A pedophile made it up and now it's gross. Also he's a really bad person, possibly a communist and you know you don't want the diseases he has.
That is all. Seems pretty silly and unnecessary tbh.
Also it's more like using dumb to talk about someone stupid, mentally retarded and things you don't like. Seriously this happens all the time, things that aren't true or accurate are publicized faster than those that are true and accurate, get over it. Does it ruin your game with someone says "Man this MOBA stuff sure is fun?"
I'm sure you guys won't listen to reasoning so I don't plan on coming back to this thread, just posting my 2 cents.
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I don't really understand why we shouldn't use the words made by people who are not respecting the law or have a different morality. There are many people in the history who did "bad" things and created new words, new concepts still used nowadays. Polanski banged a 14 years old girl omg ! Does it mean i shouldn't watch his movies ?
I get it, you hate the guy but at the same time you are advertising for him. I mean i'm pretty sure that 95% of the people who use this word didn't even know about that guy and still don't care. It is just a dumb word like pretty much all the video game genres.
Like if strategy in RTS means anything. I have seen some quake games with more "strategy" than your average 8 mins Sc2 game lol.
Same shit with the "RPG" games with 0 roleplaying in 95% of them, they are just a grind/stats fest.
I could understand if you really tried to make a new classification for all the genres but this outrage about one word is hmmm weird ?
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ARTS is equally if not more retarded of a term
Action RTS? How the fuck is THAT not a description of SC2 or WC3 or even Arena games like WoW arena and BLC?
In the end people are just whiny about a term that they think doesn't describe the game well but no term can describe the game well since in the end it was a mod off of the SC/WC3 engine.
In the end, it is a real time strategy game, and you know what, that term can be used on Quake too, Quake is happening in real time and has strategy involved.
Just like CS was a mod off of HL, Dota will be a mod off of WC3 and will either have to share the same genre title or come up with one that is just a general term to describe it. MOBA is just fine for that because when you say the word MOBA, at least people understand what games they are referring to...dota style and arena games.
Come up with something else and go ahead, but there is a reason people use MOBA is because 1) its already known to describe the genre 2) they can't think of anything better.
i completely fucking agree with boblion, this argument is the dumbest shit on earth, its just a classification and i don't care if the guy who made up the term raped and pillaged a 10000 person village, a term is a term
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If you want to nitpick, let's start with this:
It's AN RTS, it's AN FPS.
'But R and F are consonants!', your might argue. But if you pronounce them, the first sound your hear is a vowel. It's like 'a unicorn' but 'an ultimate challenge'.
AarrrPG!
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On October 28 2011 05:17 meowmeow- wrote:
If you want to nitpick, let's start with this:
It's AN RTS, it's AN FPS.
'But R and F are consonants!', your might argue. But if you pronounce them, the first sound your hear is a vowel. It's like 'a unicorn' but 'an ultimate challenge'.
AarrrPG!
I take english isn't your native language?
On-topic: I don't think they'll change an already familiarised title for something less popular.
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On October 28 2011 05:26 Corridor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 05:17 meowmeow- wrote:
If you want to nitpick, let's start with this:
It's AN RTS, it's AN FPS.
'But R and F are consonants!', your might argue. But if you pronounce them, the first sound your hear is a vowel. It's like 'a unicorn' but 'an ultimate challenge'.
AarrrPG! I take english isn't your native language? On-topic: I don't think they'll change an already familiarised title for something less popular.
It's not, but that doesn't change the fact that I'm right.
The choice of the definite article depends on the 'phonetic spelling', i. e. the pronounciation of the respective substantive / adjective / adverb.
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On October 28 2011 05:26 Corridor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 05:17 meowmeow- wrote:
If you want to nitpick, let's start with this:
It's AN RTS, it's AN FPS.
'But R and F are consonants!', your might argue. But if you pronounce them, the first sound your hear is a vowel. It's like 'a unicorn' but 'an ultimate challenge'.
AarrrPG! I take english isn't your native language? On-topic: I don't think they'll change an already familiarised title for something less popular.
He's right? It always bugs me when people say 'a RTS'.
Also, I'd say ARTS describes it pretty well... it's like an RTS, but with more action and less passive macro. I dunno... yeah SC2 has action, but the action is the focus of an ARTS. Whatever, not like it hugely matters anyways, and I'm probably still gonna call it a MOBA just for the sake of familiarity and simplicity.
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United States37500 Posts
So much unbelievable hearsay in the OP. The best argument you have is "Let's not use a term popularized, not even coined, by an alleged pedophile"?
Really?
Only substantial point I got from this is that Hunter_ is a bad apple in the eyes of some people.
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Grammar nazi? Maybe you should pay attention to your own grammar before you make that claim.
To play the part of "devil's advocate", I will agree with OP. We should all cease to use all language that has been invented by people who are fundamentally bad - for the sake of purity, and to abolish all evil.
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Lol, just because a term was popularized by a person you don't like doesn't mean that the term is now politically incorrect?
Anyways MOBA and ARTS are both stupid names for genres, but so are many of the genres., but they stuck because people used them.
Dota is a TPEEIMTSAG(Third Person Eagles Eye Intensive Micro Team Strategy Action Game)
I am a pretty nice person 
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On October 28 2011 05:41 NeoIllusions wrote:
So much unbelievable hearsay in the OP. The best argument you have is "Let's not use a term popularized, not even coined, by an alleged pedophile"?
Really?
Only substantial point I got from this is that Hunter_ is a bad apple in the eyes of some people.
It's not unbelievable, and it's not hearsay.
The point is:
There is an opportunity to use a word other than MOBA while the genre is still being developed. Polls on TL itself show that MOBA is not even the most popular term. There are a lot of reasons to not use it. You are essentially identifying yourself with someone who is trash because you are too lazy to use another term which has no negative connotations and is more technically correct in every way.
A lot of people can't read....like for example:
On October 28 2011 05:48 Fkyx wrote:
Grammar nazi? Maybe you should pay attention to your own grammar before you make that claim.
I said I was not a grammar nazi so your whole post is useless.
Edit: Do you call black people niggers, [ politically incorrect and scummy in nature just like moba ] cuz that's what you wanna use? Even if you despise the racist white people who popularized it?
My point is not cause<>effect. You are co-relating yourself with a word like nigger just because you [ some dota/hon/lol follower ] wants to use the word MOBA.
Funny how the people defending moba can't comprehend rational information and think far enough ahead to see that its not just an ad-hominem based plea for avoidance.
User was warned for this post
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Way to derail an already nonsensical thread by comparing 'MOBA' to 'nigger'...
It has to be so obvious how this is retarded...
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So... you have 2 premises here.
One is that MOBA is a term coined by a despicable person that should be reviled and despised. TBH. I don't care if this man single-handedly introduced AIDS to all the children of Africa, it does not make the term suddenly invalid. It is an acronym, not a person. In order to use the word, I do not need to love everyone who was ever involved with the word. Using the word Nazi does not make me respect and admire Hitler. I reject this premise.
Your second premise is that MOBA does not describe Dota, HoN, LoL, etc.
This premise is slightly more solid, but I am afraid I must reject it as well. These are categorical terms, and in many cases they are extremely loose. Many FPS games are in real time and have strategy, for example. Doesn't make them an RTS. These categorical terms exist because of the connotations that exist in relation to the terms.
If I say this game is an RTS, you assume I am not talking about a game where you run around and shoot people, right? If I say this is a simulation game, you don't assume I am talking about a game where you move your army around the map and attempt to take over your opponents base. If I say this is a MOBA game, you assume that we aren't talking about a game like Starcraft.
Why? Well because the term MOBA has been attached to this genre, and it now has a representative meaning. RTS is attached to Starcraft. FPS is attached to Quake.
Nitpicking is stupid at this point. If the term is catching on, just let it catch on.
Oh and I doubt "Defense of the Ancients" is a more accurate way to describe the genre. And people on a Dota2 forum are going to prefer calling the genre Dota. People on LoL or HoN are probably less likely. It is essentially free advertising that anyone who thinks of the genre is instantly jumping on the Dota Bandwagon.
Its like calling RTS's "Starcraft style games". A bit on the ridiculous side...
I reject your premises, I reject your conclusion. I will continue to call it MOBA, because it categorizes the style of the game distinctive of, FPS, RTS, etc.
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So, we shouldn't use the term because its creator was a pedophile?
Anything else, maybe a reason that's significant.
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United States37500 Posts
I can also say you're making a mountain out of a molehill. My choosing to use the "MOBA" term has nothing to do with laziness but more to do with how I don't agree with your point of view. Not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion of my word usage and choice means I support Hunter_. What if I'm support Guinsoo instead, for example?
My biggest problem is how you try to demonize players who use the term "MOBA" (for any reason) and they are suddenly guilty by association. I personally think the term is somewhat apt. It may not be as technically correct as you would want our genre acronym to be but it works for me. RTS, FPS, even MMORPG, they are all general describers of a genre of game.
If this thread was simply about how "MOBA" is a bad acronym for our genre because it's not accurately descriptive, I could nod and agree with you. But you spent way too much time talking about Hunter_ and what he's done. He's a terrible support for your argument.
P.S. The poll you were referring to was held in the old DotA/HoN megathread. Hardly representative of "TL itself". I'm pretty sure most LoL players are ok or don't even care about the term "MOBA".
Edit: Wow, did you honestly just try to draw and analogy between what you're talking about (gaming terms) and Black people vs "Niggers"? Unfuckingbelivable...
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Oh, the OP compared MOBA to nigger. I am sorry, we have all been trolled... but for the sake of the children...
These are nothing similar, and by comparing the two, you have simultaneously devalued the war against that word, and thrust your ignorance front and center. There is no negative connotation with MOBA. Do you get demeaned and insulted when someone called a game a MOBA? Are the successes of these games harmed by the term being attached to them?
Just because when you hear the word MOBA, you think of mincing paedophiles, does not make the word have a negative association for anyone except you.
When I taste cheese whiz, I taste garbage bags. When I smell woodchips, I think of melons. When I drink root beer, I think of toothpaste. These are personal associations of mine and are by no means universal.
MOBA is not derogatory. MOBA is not insulting. MOBA is not inherently negative.
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I have just watched How I Met Your Mother so I read the entire thing in Ted's voice except the quotations which the good sir Neil Patrick Harris kindly volunteered for. It was hilarious.
On a side note, I agree with you. MOBA just sounds retarded. Let's just call the genre DotA.
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On October 28 2011 05:59 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 05:41 NeoIllusions wrote:
So much unbelievable hearsay in the OP. The best argument you have is "Let's not use a term popularized, not even coined, by an alleged pedophile"?
Really?
Only substantial point I got from this is that Hunter_ is a bad apple in the eyes of some people. Edit: Do you call black people niggers, [ politically incorrect and scummy in nature just like moba ] cuz that's what you wanna use? Even if you despise the racist white people who popularized it?
Holy moly
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You know, I suspect most people who hate the term MOBA are simply just Riot/LoL haters, since Riot uses the term and any use of that term promotes LoL more than other games.
Too bad. It's already the dominant term used by the media. Even EG used the MOBA term in their article about the new Dota2 team. MYM uses the term also. Tobi-wan talked about the video he made for some Moba site introducing Dota2.
If deep down inside this is what the OP feels, then he should just admit it. This would actually be a much better reason for disliking the term than trying to associate the term with a pedophile.
While I think ARTS is better description for the genre, it doesn't sound cool at all. And MOBA rhymes with Dota while still being a better description than Dota. Regardless of how accurate the description is, MOBA is cooler sounder to the general public, and is a homage to Dota.
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On October 28 2011 06:13 NeoIllusions wrote:
I can also say you're making a mountain out of a molehill. My choosing to use the "MOBA" term has nothing to do with laziness but more to do with how I don't agree with your point of view. Not sure why you're jumping to the conclusion of my word usage and choice means I support Hunter_. What if I'm support Guinsoo instead, for example?
My biggest problem is how you try to demonize players who use the term "MOBA" (for any reason) and they are suddenly guilty by association. I personally think the term is somewhat apt. It may not be as technically correct as you would want our genre acronym to be but it works for me. RTS, FPS, even MMORPG, they are all general describers of a genre of game.
Wait, so you chose to use MOBA because you don't agree with my point of view?
You sat there and said..hmmm what should I call these games collectively as a genre. Oh I know, I'll take Ack's opinion and do the opposite of what he does.
I am not up in arms or raging at people who use moba or ' making a mountain out of a molehill '
You can use it if you want. The OP is just information for people who didn't know about it. If you want to use MOBA and don't care then don't post? Isn't that how it works at TL?
The facts are:
1.There is no singular widespread agreed term for the genre.
2.Most people who say moba have no idea what or where its from, they just use it cuz they heard it.
3.If you don't care, then ok, keep using MOBA. I already know people use MOBA and people will continue to use it.
You conveniently forget that in starcraft 2 if any tournament or organizer doesn't pay out their players or shuts down their support or even has shitty VOD support they are antagonized by the community so that they can improve and the entire sc2 scene benefits.
So when hunter, who doesn't pay out, doesn't finish tournaments, hides himself after being revealed, even tries to start a new project through a TL post, is let off the hook so easy you can see the irony.
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On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything.
Um every single genre description is that
Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS
Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing
MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO
FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons.
Who cares if the term MOBA was originated by a dickweed? If it's apt then it's apt, and if people use it to mean something then that's what it will mean. 99.9% of people don't know where it comes from and don't care (for, frankly, a good reason -- it doesn't matter at all).
Where exactly is this Hunter_ guy being let off the hook? Because he's an asshole and a term that he coined is becoming the most commonly used one to describe a subset of video games? Nobody using it even knows it was him, he gains nothing from it monetarily, so who cares? You're afraid he's going to get some sort of psychological satisfaction from it?
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Do you use MOBA ganfei? Y/N and explain why you do or don't.
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United States37500 Posts
What in the world...
If you're going to quote parts of my post, at least quote the right friggin' parts, Ack.
I personally think the term is somewhat apt. It may not be as technically correct as you would want our genre acronym to be but it works for me.
Your opinion is your own, I can either agree or disagree but I'm certainly not drawing my own conclusion just by going opposite of what you decide.
My last comment on this issue: arguing "MOBA" has a subpar acronym = no problem. Fight the fight.
Trying to bring Hunter_ into any part of your argument = you getting laughed at.
Hunter is no part of TL and the post you try to highlight is over a year ago. He is a terrible reason as why not to use the term "MOBA".
Btw, "MOBA" is a widely accepted term. I type in "MOBA" or "MOBA genre" into google, I find games of our genre. "ARTS" or "ARTS genre"? I find websites about artwork. Don't even get me started on "TARPS"... lol.
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I call them DotA and DotA type games xD
all this MOBA, ARTS, AOS etc is crap and I cringe when all these community people sirscoots, djwheat, slasher, hellspawn etc keep saying MOBA.
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Yes-because saying DotA gets confused with the WC3 Mod game, and MOBA has a nice ring to it. That ought to be enough.
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On October 28 2011 06:30 Ganfei2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything. Um every single genre description is that Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons.
HI GANFEI~! ( ´・‿-) ~ ♥
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sEwxA.png)
Do you see why object B can fit under A, but B doesn't completely describe A? YAY!
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On October 28 2011 06:41 Kentakky wrote:
I call them DotA and DotA type games xD
all this MOBA, ARTS, AOS etc is crap and I cringe when all these community people sirscoots, djwheat, slasher, hellspawn etc keep saying MOBA.
I get a big smile when MOBA is used because I know nerds are cringing and raging.
Even bigger smile when it's used in PR release.
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Honestly, if the entire community has been unable to come up with a better term at this point, to me that is the best reason to just keep calling them MOBA.
It's not a great term, it's not terrible. It could be alot worse and it seems nobody is able to come up with anything better so we might as well go with it.
OP, you can't ask people not to use a term (especially when your argument is awful) without giving an alternative.
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Lalalaland34495 Posts
Funnily enough, I was one of the first 20 members of HunteR_'s first venture into exploiting this stuff. Was my first time venturing into competitive DotA as well. Wasn't a good experience. :/
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On October 28 2011 06:45 iinsight wrote:
OP, you can't ask people not to use a term (especially when your argument is awful) without giving an alternative.
Poster, you can't ask OP for an alternative when you didn't even read the OP.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cnfq5.png)
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On October 28 2011 06:38 NeoIllusions wrote:What in the world... If you're going to quote parts of my post, at least quote the right friggin' parts, Ack. Show nested quote +I personally think the term is somewhat apt. It may not be as technically correct as you would want our genre acronym to be but it works for me. Your opinion is your own, I can either agree or disagree but I'm certainly not drawing my own conclusion just by going opposite of what you decide. My last comment on this issue: arguing "MOBA" has a subpar acronym = no problem. Fight the fight. Trying to bring Hunter_ into any part of your argument = you getting laughed at. Hunter is no part of TL and the post you try to highlight is over a year ago. He is a terrible reason as why not to use the term "MOBA". Btw, "MOBA" is a widely accepted term. I type in "MOBA" or "MOBA genre" into google, I find games of our genre. "ARTS" or "ARTS genre"? I find websites about artwork. Don't even get me started on "TARPS"... lol.
So arguing if MOBA is subpar or not is fine, yet I can't talk about person who used it the most and made the first website with MOBA in the name?
Again, you did not read. I said there is no singular widespread agreed term. I can google search fifty synonyms for having sex. Just because I get a buncha results does that mean that any of those are a single agreed term? If I google a song and what genre it is..etc...
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The facts are:
1.There is no singular widespread agreed term for the genre.
2.Most people who say moba have no idea what or where its from, they just use it cuz they heard it.
3.If you don't care, then ok, keep using MOBA. I already know people use MOBA and people will continue to use it.
1. The genre is relatively new. At first it was a mod for WC3, so people just called it DoTA. It is only recently that this has spawned a wide variety of games that can now be classified as separate from others. Agreeing on a term is something that takes a long time, and there will never been an official document signed that will describe them. Certain terms will simply... catch on... eventually.*
2. I don't know the origin of the vast majority of words or acronyms I use. Does not mean I cannot use them or know what they mean.
3. So why did you make this thread? Your thread attempts to convince people that they shouldnt use the term MOBA, and now you say "if you don't care, then ok". thats... odd.
My own:
4. Why does it matter? Mountains out of molehills has already been said... but simply put, why try to stop or slow or direct something that is as natural and powerful as language progression? Just let it happen. Its not like people will start calling it the NIGGER genre or something... (although judging by my time spent in those games, I wouldn't be all THAT surprised).
*I believe something that is slowing down a universal acceptance of a term is the rampant fanboyism and general attitude of the MOBA communities. Anyone who has spent any extended time playing them can probably agree that the communities are some of the worst, most BM and rude communities in gaming. Not only that, but there is such split fanboyism between them that they are probably going to vehemently disagree with one another, for no better reason then to disagree.
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On October 28 2011 06:44 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:30 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything. Um every single genre description is that Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons. HI GANFEI~! ( ´・‿-) ~ ♥ Do you see why object B can fit under A, but B doesn't completely describe A? YAY!
You know, that picture is a pretty good description of what most people who want to get into the genre think.
MOBA = fun, social, multiplayer.
non-MOBA = boring single player POS.
ARTS = neutered dumbed down version of a real RTS, like Starcraft.
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I don't believe a person is only good or only bad, and that anything a "bad" person touches must be eschewed. That's childish logic. If this Hunter guy did bad things, then hating on him for them is appropriate. But there is nothing inherently bad about coming up with a descriptor/name for a gaming genre. It's exactly the kind of activity that brings with it no moral consideration whatsoever.
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United States37500 Posts
On October 28 2011 06:50 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:38 NeoIllusions wrote:What in the world... If you're going to quote parts of my post, at least quote the right friggin' parts, Ack. I personally think the term is somewhat apt. It may not be as technically correct as you would want our genre acronym to be but it works for me. Your opinion is your own, I can either agree or disagree but I'm certainly not drawing my own conclusion just by going opposite of what you decide. My last comment on this issue: arguing "MOBA" has a subpar acronym = no problem. Fight the fight. Trying to bring Hunter_ into any part of your argument = you getting laughed at. Hunter is no part of TL and the post you try to highlight is over a year ago. He is a terrible reason as why not to use the term "MOBA". Btw, "MOBA" is a widely accepted term. I type in "MOBA" or "MOBA genre" into google, I find games of our genre. "ARTS" or "ARTS genre"? I find websites about artwork. Don't even get me started on "TARPS"... lol. So arguing if MOBA is subpar or not is fine, yet I can't talk about person who used it the most and made the first website with MOBA in the name? Again, you did not read. I said there is no singular widespread agreed term. I can google search fifty synonyms for having sex. Just because I get a buncha results does that mean that any of those are a single agreed term? If I google a song and what genre it is..etc...
le sigh, cause the person who coined the acronym, no one really gives a fuck about, k?
99% of the gamers who use "MOBA" don't know about Hunter_. Even if they did find out about Hunter, they probably wouldn't care about him.
Do you know who coined "RTS"? What do you know about that guy's history? Yeah, my point exactly.
I read plenty. I think MOBA is a widespread term. It's referred as so on Blizzard's website for their DotA. HoNcast for their roundtable streams. EG referred to their new DotA2 team as playing in a MOBA genre game. There are plenty of examples. Not sure why you're in denial about how it isn't widespread.
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On October 28 2011 06:47 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:45 iinsight wrote:
OP, you can't ask people not to use a term (especially when your argument is awful) without giving an alternative. Poster, you can't ask OP for an alternative when you didn't even read the OP.
The only reason for picking ARTS is that it's the term used by Valve/Dota2, and MOBA is used by Riot/LoL.
There is no humble reason. It's hard for fanboys to use a term associated with a competitor. I'll laugh at anyone who tries to deny that.
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Oh look, an acronym that accurately portrays a style of game and is understood by the gaming community is used to describe games of that style.
The "fact" that there's a guy who may or may not be reputable who may or may not be involved in popularizing the term is completely irrelevant.
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The facts are:
1.There is no singular widespread agreed term for the genre.
2.Most people who say moba have no idea what or where its from, they just use it cuz they heard it.
3.If you don't care, then ok, keep using MOBA. I already know people use MOBA and people will continue to use it.
1. YES there is, its called....wait for it..... MOBA, thats what everyone calls it only the people who have been playing dota for 7 years and think they are some sort of elitists dotn want to call it that, its moba get over it
2.thats not true
3.agree
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On October 28 2011 07:03 cilinder007 wrote:Show nested quote +
The facts are:
1.There is no singular widespread agreed term for the genre.
2.Most people who say moba have no idea what or where its from, they just use it cuz they heard it.
3.If you don't care, then ok, keep using MOBA. I already know people use MOBA and people will continue to use it.
1. YES there is, its called....wait for it..... MOBA, thats what everyone calls it only the people who have been playing dota for 7 years and think they are some sort of elitists dotn want to call it that, its moba get over it 2.thats not true 3.agree
1. Except that that's not true. Very few of the total number of HoN/DotA players use MOBA.
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Arguing with statistics made up on the spot is cool.
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On October 28 2011 07:08 LurkersGonnaLurk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 07:03 cilinder007 wrote:
The facts are:
1.There is no singular widespread agreed term for the genre.
2.Most people who say moba have no idea what or where its from, they just use it cuz they heard it.
3.If you don't care, then ok, keep using MOBA. I already know people use MOBA and people will continue to use it.
1. YES there is, its called....wait for it..... MOBA, thats what everyone calls it only the people who have been playing dota for 7 years and think they are some sort of elitists dotn want to call it that, its moba get over it 2.thats not true 3.agree 1. Except that that's not true. Very few of the total number of HoN/DotA players use MOBA.
I thought it was AoS, short for 'Attack other Side', spawned from 'Aeons of Strife'.
On October 28 2011 07:10 Craton wrote:
Arguing with statistics made up on the spot is cool.
83% of statistics are made up on the spot.
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I'm pretty sure every time I say MOBA people aren't associating me with a child molester.
I'm also not going to use dota because that's a whole different game. I don't call every mmo "maplestory" (not sure what the first mmorpg was) because that was the first mmo. I don't give a fuck where the term came from, it fits the game just fine - about as well as RTS describes starcraft. I'm not the one helping perpetuate this Hunter_ guy. You are.
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1) I had fuck no idea who or what hunter was.
2) I think MOBA sounds (kinda) cool.
3) I think ARTS sounds too much like... arts.
4) Calling a fucking genre after the first game of it is plain stupid.
"Multiplayer Online Battle Arena" sounds stupid. I agree. However, it doesn't fucking matter. It's an acronym.
LDL HDL DNA LSD AIDS BMX CFC SS SA BDM BDSM PHP - I'd be suprised if most people can tell what half of those actually MEAN, but I'm pretty damn sure everyone has an idea what they're about.
The whole idea of an acronym is to make things short and uncomplicated.
If it sounds good, has no other meaning with which it can be confused (thats why ARTS is bullshit - if Valve uses that for real they have no clue about marketing in that case) and if people can have a vague idea what it means, it's great.
Personally, I heard the terms "ARTS", "RTSRPG" and "AoS" for the first time today to describe this genre. I'm a huge nerd. They can't be that widespread. Also this is the first time I hear someone actively defending to name a genre after a single game (DotA). "Dota-like games" would be fine, but DLG sounds stupid again.
Edit: tl;dr - where are those great alternatives for the term "MOBA" you told us about again? I can't see any.
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I'd never heard of this Hunter_ character before this thread. I had definitely heard the term MOBA before though.
There are plenty of FPS that show an "over the shoulder" view instead of first person. Should we change them all to TPS? (Third-person, of course) How about all the RPGs with no actual role-playing in them, and merely collections of stats and items and levelling up? What do you call those now?
When you say "FPS" a certain framework comes into your head -- you're a single character, you have a gun, you shoot things with it.
When you say "RPG", you know there will be statistics, equipments, and levelling up, in either a real-time or turn-based battle system that relies more on the amount of time spent grinding than any actual skill.
When you say "MOBA", you understand inherently the genre framework you're working in. And without putting too fine a point on it, at this stage in its development, yes, it will be some sort of DotA clone/knock off. But even then, let's look at League of Legends for a bit. You can look at Dominion and see a completely different style of gameplay, but the same premise is there -- Champions that level up, minions that give XP, money available for items that are the true power in the game. The objectives and win conditions are completely different. Is it still a MOBA? Undoubtedly yes. You could even say it's a "King of the Hill" style MOBA and still be completely accurate, just like a King of the Hill or Capture the Flag mode exists in FPS games that are still called FPS games.
And I hate to even answer your...other...points...about using things that were invented by terrible people. I hate to break it to your pure little mind, but more or less everything you use in your day-to-day life was invented by someone who did terrible things -- unless you're saying you promote slavery, corruption, greed, theft, affairs, child abuse...and that's just the start of a list related to turning your computer on and connecting to the internet.
Get over yourself and get used to using the term that is already fairly widely accepted. Or if you're that passionate about it for real reasons, like the term actually being inaccurate, then do something to be involved deeply in the community and try to change it from the inside out by talking to the community members who already spend countless hours inside promoting and growing it.
.....I actually feel dirty that I spent that long replying to a post that I'm pretty sure is a troll.....
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If Dota is an ARTS then so is Counter Strike.
The ignorance of the meaning of RTS on a SC BW site baffles me. And let's not talk about the role the Action-part plays in making the distinction between RTS and Dota-style games.
MOBA is in itself a vague and maybe weak acronym. But it is new and can be used without any problems.
On October 28 2011 06:28 Ack1027 wrote:
Wait, so you chose to use MOBA because you don't agree with my point of view?
Ooh the irony...
[insert fully deserved insult here]
There are plenty of FPS that show an "over the shoulder" view instead of first person. Should we change them all to TPS?
Yes. Because that is what they are. What's the point in calling an FPS an FPS when we also call third person view games first person view games? You would also support calling a real time game turn based and vice versa?
Can't believe someone can say something like this. I also don't believe you when you say that third person view games are called first person view games by anyone relevant.
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"action rts" rofl? are you serious?
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On playdota.com, if anyone uses the term moba. They are pretty much written off.
Example:
NewGuy: "So I was playing Terrorblade the other day, but I died. How do I better learn this MOBA game? It's so hard, the instructions are unclear where I should be farming at the 10minute mark, so I end up being ganked often.
What should I do?
CommonResponseGuy: "Stopped reading at MOBA 0_0"
When people use MOBA in the real Dota community ( i.e. Old fags who played Dota for 2+ years),
people will instantly call you a noob or a no-body. Why? Because MOBA = HoN/LoL for them. Which is like an insult.
Generally thou, most of the time Dota players don't worry about the "genre" we just play the game.
If I had to call it a genre it would be something to do with the fact that it's two sides fighting for their "homelands".
At the end of the day, terms like moba, rpg, rts, arts, etc are more important for advertisers than players.
For the players it's mostly an easy way to identify new/ignorant fags on forums and subsequently write them off from conversation.
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ive never even give this any thought, although MOBA sounds stupid as shit.
how about we call it defense of the ancients.
we could shorten it to dota. everything else is just... lol.
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On October 28 2011 07:59 paschl wrote:
ive never even give this any thought, although MOBA sounds stupid as shit.
how about we call it defense of the ancients.
we could shorten it to dota. everything else is just... lol.
I'm going to give you a nice example of why arguing in such a way is not useful.
I've never even given this any though, although dota sounds stupid as shit.
How about we call it multiplayer online battle arena.
We could shorten it to MOBA. Everything else is just... lol.
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i should really post more, my trolling skills are decreasing.
maybe if i write it LoL instead of lol it would be better but i dont like being too on the nose with it.
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Is anything in the OP actually true? o.O
I thought MOBA was a name created because RTS-minigame would've been demeaning.
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On October 28 2011 07:01 Craton wrote:
Oh look, an acronym that accurately portrays a style of game and is understood by the gaming community is used to describe games of that style.
The "fact" that there's a guy who may or may not be reputable who may or may not be involved in popularizing the term is completely irrelevant.
It does not accurately describe it, and by "gaming community" you mean LoL players. No other person refers to it as such.
Though yes, the idea of not using a term because it was possibly popularized by a scamming pedo is rather silly.
On October 28 2011 07:42 Suisen wrote:
If Dota is an ARTS then so is Counter Strike.
MOBA fits Counter-strike much better than ARTS.
I personally like the idea of "ARTS" if only because it is referential to War3, though that's only when compared to the current competition.
On October 28 2011 07:41 ArcticFox wrote:
I'd never heard of this Hunter_ character before this thread. I had definitely heard the term MOBA before though.
There are plenty of FPS that show an "over the shoulder" view instead of first person. Should we change them all to TPS? (Third-person, of course)
Yes, if the game was set in a third person perspective, I would call it as such. Why on earth would I call something third person a First Person Shooter?
They're both subsets of shooters, much like DotA-style games are a subset of RTS.
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moba is such a dumb name, i cant believe people even use it. anyone that played dota will never use that word =/
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imo there shouldnt be more than 1 of these games mainstream.. i mean they are all basically the exact same thing just diff colors and character names.
DoTA2 must rise over all these wanna-be's so the genre can be just called dota
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On October 28 2011 08:29 krews wrote:
moba is such a dumb name, i cant believe people even use it. anyone that played dota will never use that word =/
I played dota, I use the term. Argument refuted. Next!
On October 28 2011 08:45 MMello wrote:imo there shouldnt be more than 1 of these games mainstream.. i mean they are all basically the exact same thing just diff colors and character names. DoTA2 must rise over all these wanna-be's so the genre can be just called dota
Don't need Starcraft either I guess. Already got Warcraft.
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There is only 1 DotA and the genre is called DotA.
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Threads like these are why post counts go up while post quality goes down because apparently saying MOBA is racist towards pedophiles, or is a sexual crime against minority children.
Imo OP should just wait and see, if everyone at playdota despises the term, then it will surely fall away, but then again if other sites that are pretty big deals (coL) use the term, then it will surely succeed, but I don't think a SC website (albeit in the DotA forum) is where the tide of the battle will turn for or against.
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I always call games of this genre "AoS" games, because I always thought that AoS was the first of this genre to be released. I don't know if that's correct, but to me all DoTA/LoL/HoN-esque games are AoS in my eyes.
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I dun like the term MOBA either, and I understand the anti-Dota name but to me it is the Dota-genre with its one unit-hero (excluding creeps/chicken) control to max 25 lvls, lane pushing, map control, etc. ARTS is ok but all of them do not perfectly describe 'the game'. It is simply Dota-like and in my humble opinion, should just be called Dota-genre. ^^
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Have to crosspost this from the LoL forums 'cause I think it's pretty spot on:
On October 28 2011 09:38 overt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 09:27 c.Deadly wrote:On October 28 2011 08:29 myopia wrote:On October 28 2011 07:59 NeoIllusions wrote:
You can't call an entire genre of games after the first of its type...
That makes absolutely zero sense. It's worse than MOBA or ARTS (I'd take ARTS over DotA any day as a genre describer)
But we do. 'Roguelikes' -> games like Rogue (though tbh this is the only example I can think of) I use dota-like, but the term leaves just as much to be desired as MOBA or ARTS, i.e. it doesn't relay a useful description to the uninformed. The purpose of an acronym shouldn't be to offer a useful or detailed description of a genre, otherwise they would be impossibly long. Acronym's are useful because you can attribute meaning to them that has nothing to do with the words they expand to. Think of RPG - almost any game is a "role playing game", the acronym does nothing to describe that the genre typically is a medieval/sci-fi setting, has a progression system of leveling-up, an epic storyline, etc.. but we know all of these things when someone says "RPG". This is why it's pointless to argue if one acronym is better than another, eventually the same meaning will be attributed to both so it doesn't make a difference. The problem for people trying to argue against MOBA though is that MOBA already is what the community calls this genre of games. There are only two reasons this discussion is even happening and they both stem from the same thing. People who play DotA don't like games that aren't DotA. That's why they don't like the term MOBA because to them LoL/HoN are inferior (which is fine, they can have that opinion). The second reason is because Valve/Gabe Newell are trying to call DotA2 an Action RTS. However, while some people think this is them trying to rename the genre or do a one-up on Riot I think it's more because Valve knows and understands their market. They know that people who play DotA don't like the term MOBA, they know that the people who play DotA hardcore are elitists. These are the people they want to switch over and play DotA2. If they referred to DotA2 as a MOBA game the DotA community would not be happy about it. And so the discussion begins on whether it should be MOBA, ARTS, or just DotAlike. The problem with this discussion is that MOBA already is the term people use to refer to HoN/LoL/DotA/Realm of Titans/whatever other games are in the genre. The other problem is that it's essentially caving into DotA elitists who by and large are never going to play a game in the genre other than DotA. Valve knows their market and wants as many DotA players as possible to come over to DotA2. People who are still playing DotA and not HoN/LoL don't want their game lumped into the same category as games they view as copycats and inferior. It's an argument in semantics fueled by elitists. edit: Just wanted to point out that I'm not saying people who think MOBA is stupid or who prefer ARTS/DotAesqe are DotA elitist. I'm just pointing out that the only reason this discussion is happening is because the DotA community is filled with elitists.
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On October 28 2011 09:38 MonkSEA wrote:
I always call games of this genre "AoS" games, because I always thought that AoS was the first of this genre to be released. I don't know if that's correct, but to me all DoTA/LoL/HoN-esque games are AoS in my eyes.
I'm pretty sure AoS was created after WC3 came out and DOTA became a THING. AoS was just the BW UMS version of it.
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"ARTS" is even worse in my opinion.
"Action" is so incredible vague, and HoN/LoL/DotA don't have any more action than a game like Starcraft has.
MOBA has widespread usage and is accepted by more people than any other. I don't care if it was popularized (not even created) by someone pretty shady. I use thousands of words and acronyms every day, should I go research the popularization of every single word and eliminate every one from my vocabulary that was popularized by someone without perfect moral standing?
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On October 28 2011 09:58 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 09:38 MonkSEA wrote:
I always call games of this genre "AoS" games, because I always thought that AoS was the first of this genre to be released. I don't know if that's correct, but to me all DoTA/LoL/HoN-esque games are AoS in my eyes. I'm pretty sure AoS was created after WC3 came out and DOTA became a THING. AoS was just the BW UMS version of it.
Aeon of Strife was the BW version, it was a little while after DotA, some people hadn't heard of Aeon of Strife, and 'worked out' what the acronym meant on their own.
Attack other Side is good imo, screw all this MOBA/ARTS/Other crap.
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I think the other thread fits the discussion better, I just say DOTA-like. Still, I couldn't care less about some label, ARTS and MOBA are both pretty stupid and if people say MOBA describes everything, well ARTS basically describes every RTS (starcraft doesn't exactly lack "action"). You could probably call it something like HRTS (Hero and make it sound like hearts), but it's less catchy and people would still cry about it.
I really don't think there are enough games that people really should even care about defining it. Unless we have some hardcore SOTIS players, does anyone really play anything besides the three titles of DOTA(2)/LoL/HoN?
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Anyone who says that the LoL community isn't this genre of games community doesn't actually know what they're talking about. Sure 99% of the LoL players are casual as fuck but the amount of people that play it is insane. Like >10 millio people. I can't remember whether the amount they gave was 13 million or 15 million. They have 600,000 people simulatenously playing the game at once most of the time. Not sitting in the lobby but playing.
Compare that to HoN's community which is around 600,000 last I heard. I have no idea about how many people play DotA nowadays so i can't really comment on that but I'm sure it's not >10million.
So if the LoL community starts calling it MOBA, then the majority of people who play the genre are calling it MOBA.
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It's too late. MOBA is incredibly dumb, but people recognise it, so game over. MOBA will stay.
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On October 28 2011 11:08 JoFritzMD wrote:
I have no idea about how many people play DotA nowadays so i can't really comment on that but I'm sure it's not >10million. It's similar, because of China. However, that isn't likely to transfer to Dota 2 at least in the near future, because of the higher system requirements.
On October 28 2011 10:20 PartyBiscuit wrote:
I think the other thread fits the discussion better Agreed, here's the link again: MOBA/ARTS/Dota, does it really matter?
We don't have to repeat the whole thread here, if needed we can just continue the old discussion.
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On October 28 2011 09:58 Offhand wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 09:38 MonkSEA wrote:
I always call games of this genre "AoS" games, because I always thought that AoS was the first of this genre to be released. I don't know if that's correct, but to me all DoTA/LoL/HoN-esque games are AoS in my eyes. I'm pretty sure AoS was created after WC3 came out and DOTA became a THING. AoS was just the BW UMS version of it.
The story I always knew was that Eul based the first DOTA on AoS (Wikipedia confirms this but its sources aren't great). This was not DOTA allstars but "DOTA," and was nothing resembling a competitive game. Guinsoo then based a map off of it called DOTA Allstars, and mixed in a lot of stuff from Tides of Blood(the TOB additions even continued to the day of Icefrog: Kunkaa is very similar to the classic pirate hero from TOB). At the time of Eul first beginning to develop the map TOB was far more advanced in hero design, but its mystery developer did not release a single new version from 0.99c and it had very few heroes. Eul capitalized on this by taking a lot of the game-play elements and mixing them with the proliferation of heroes from DOTA. Eventually Eul handed off development to Icefrog, who turned it from an unbalanced casual game to a balanced competitive e-sport, and one by one he replaced the huge number of cookie cutter heroes(a lot of the heroes basically had a stun spell, and some passives), with more interesting versions.
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This is such a dumb thread. MOBA is a term, not a marketing tool unless you deliberately want to fight it in that way (as Valve has done in its elitism). It's a term as harmless as RPG or FPS. In fact, it describes DotA infinitely better than ARTS. DotA is not an RTS; it has as much resource management as a standard RPG and as much unit control as a standard RPG. Yet, it is a multiplayer, online, and a battle arena.
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Just think of MoBA as calling people Indians as opposed to Native Americans, yes its almost 100% wrong and yes its a stupid label. But its become popular enough to the ignorant masses that trying to use terms like DotA and ARTS, while infinitely more correct, logical, and reasonable, just feels like elitism and snobbery. Just be glad you're using the correct terms and stop trying to correct others. Because MoBA players will get what you're talking about if u say DotA-like or whatever.
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On October 28 2011 11:08 JoFritzMD wrote:
Anyone who says that the LoL community isn't this genre of games community doesn't actually know what they're talking about. Sure 99% of the LoL players are casual as fuck but the amount of people that play it is insane. Like >10 millio people. I can't remember whether the amount they gave was 13 million or 15 million. They have 600,000 people simulatenously playing the game at once most of the time. Not sitting in the lobby but playing.
Compare that to HoN's community which is around 600,000 last I heard. I have no idea about how many people play DotA nowadays so i can't really comment on that but I'm sure it's not >10million.
So if the LoL community starts calling it MOBA, then the majority of people who play the genre are calling it MOBA.
wrong there are more than that in china alone
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On October 28 2011 13:16 Enderbantoo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 11:08 JoFritzMD wrote:
Anyone who says that the LoL community isn't this genre of games community doesn't actually know what they're talking about. Sure 99% of the LoL players are casual as fuck but the amount of people that play it is insane. Like >10 millio people. I can't remember whether the amount they gave was 13 million or 15 million. They have 600,000 people simulatenously playing the game at once most of the time. Not sitting in the lobby but playing.
Compare that to HoN's community which is around 600,000 last I heard. I have no idea about how many people play DotA nowadays so i can't really comment on that but I'm sure it's not >10million.
So if the LoL community starts calling it MOBA, then the majority of people who play the genre are calling it MOBA. wrong there are more than that in china alone
I forgot about China lol.
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Look, none of you guys were apparently there when Hunter set NA DotA back a year literally. The very fact that there hasn't been a place like DXD to play vouch league DotA in NA in terms of consistency (like lasting as long as it did) and player base should tell you what he did to the community. It's not a silly argument over acronyms, its the fact that this fucking term came out of his fucking mouth and some equally dumb "journalist" decided to run with it.
Honestly, if it didn't come from Hunter, I wouldn't care, but it did and his name gets associated with the future of DotA? Fuck that. No douchebag that destroyed an entire fucking scene should have that privilege.
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On October 28 2011 06:44 paper wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:30 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything. Um every single genre description is that Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons. HI GANFEI~! ( ´・‿-) ~ ♥ Do you see why object B can fit under A, but B doesn't completely describe A? YAY!
Is this for real? Do you realize you're bolstering my point? lol.
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"Evil Geniuses returns to the MOBA genre with new DotA 2 team."
from EG's article about their Dota 2 team
Obviously EG, Riot, etc are supporting pedophiles, we should definitely boycott them until they don't use MOBA as an acronym anymore
This hunter_ guy needs to be shown who is boss, lets all stop playing DotA and any "MOBA" games until these pedophile supporters realize their wrongs.
I totally agree with you OP, Teamliquid definitely can not be seen as a site that supports pedophiles.
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But seriously, what the hell does Hunter_ have to do with me using the term MOBA, I didn't even know that he existed until I read your post. Going to call these games MOBA games still despite the fact that I know I'm support pedophiles. Guess I'm just that lazy/think that it's the best acronym out of all the ones that you gave.
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On October 28 2011 13:29 Ganfei2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 06:44 paper wrote:On October 28 2011 06:30 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything. Um every single genre description is that Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons. HI GANFEI~! ( ´・‿-) ~ ♥ Do you see why object B can fit under A, but B doesn't completely describe A? YAY! Is this for real? Do you realize you're bolstering my point? lol.
It is, but your point is wrong. Tetris is not an RTS, RTS is defined by commanding "units" against an opponent in a real time scenario, since tetris doesn't have an opponent (AI or human), it can't be considered an RTS. RPG involves playing a specific character from a "personal" perspective and directly determining its actions and relationships in the game world. Playing the "commander" role of an army from a standard RTS point doesn't fit the genre. MMO? It is actually defined not by the absolute amount of players, but by the amount of players in a persistent, single server. Millions of people will play Diablo 3, and that doesn't make it an MMO because it's not a single, persistent server or world, but is rather played on different ones.
MOBA, on the other hand, has no real definition, and can pretty much describe anything. It's a bad term.
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So I think its safe to say in summary that this thread is completely worthless and the OP is horrifically written, poorly worded, and an insult upon the world's intelligence.
I'm going to go back to playing my MOBA of choice, Dota 2.
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I can't believe I read the entire OP, waiting for him to get to the point, until I got to the end and realized: there is none!
I knew all of that stuff about Hunter already, since I was involved in the LoL/HoN betas as well. The conclusion: who fucking cares?
He popularized the term and he's a scammer, oh noes. If you found out that the term RTS was popularized by someone who robbed grandmas of their medicare money, would you stop using it? Probably not.
The funniest thing to me about your entire post is that you start it out by saying that the term was coined by Guinsoo, NOT Hunter. Guinsoo is a fine man, so what's your problem in using a term that he created? This fact seems to contradict the entirety of the rest of your post.
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Canada2068 Posts
On October 28 2011 13:45 mordk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 13:29 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 06:44 paper wrote:On October 28 2011 06:30 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything. Um every single genre description is that Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons. HI GANFEI~! ( ´・‿-) ~ ♥ Do you see why object B can fit under A, but B doesn't completely describe A? YAY! Is this for real? Do you realize you're bolstering my point? lol. It is, but your point is wrong. Tetris is not an RTS, RTS is defined by commanding "units" against an opponent in a real time scenario, since tetris doesn't have an opponent (AI or human), it can't be considered an RTS. RPG involves playing a specific character from a "personal" perspective and directly determining its actions and relationships in the game world. Playing the "commander" role of an army from a standard RTS point doesn't fit the genre. MMO? It is actually defined not by the absolute amount of players, but by the amount of players in a persistent, single server. Millions of people will play Diablo 3, and that doesn't make it an MMO because it's not a single, persistent server or world, but is rather played on different ones. MOBA, on the other hand, has no real definition, and can pretty much describe anything. It's a bad term.
But don't you realize what you're doing? You're saying "RTS is defined by commanding units against an opponent in a real time scenario", which is giving it a "connotation" that goes beyond the simple "definition" of Real Time Strategy. Ganfei was being facetious by taking the term at face value and including Tetris under the RTS category pointing out that Tetris also happens in real time and involves strategy.
Most people who try to argue the point that MOBA can include games like Starcraft or WoW are doing the same thing Ganfei is doing except Ganfei is actually aware what he (implicit assumption since we are on the internet) is doing is ridiculous—namely taking MOBA at its definition (and ignoring any possible connotation), but holding terms like RTS and FPS to a way looser standard.
OT: Let sleeping ghosts lie. In 10 years time, no one will remember the term was coined by a no-name scammer. At best, it will be noted down as an interesting anecdote somewhere.
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I was expecting to read a bunch of reasons on why I shouldn't use MOBA and instead I got a rant about what someone thinks of some guy that has zero relevance to the topic. I agree with the count. Almost any genre term when taken as its actual definition can encompass way more than it's supposed to.
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On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything.
This is the worst excuse someone could give. Its like saying all game can be called shoot'em up, even though shoot'em up is a distinct genre of games. It can be extended to music where you can say all sad music should be called blues. It doesn't make sense. When you hear MOBA or you hear shmup, you know exactly the type of game you are talking about.
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Instead of calling a game by its genre we should just call the game what it is called. Its wierd I know but why not?
LOL/HON/DOTA are not the same why do we need to classify then together.
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I am absolutely astounded by the fact that your entire argument consists of nothing more than a personal vendetta against someone. This does nothing to address the actual "correctness" of the term and stems from petty spite.
Whatever the term meant originally, what it NOW means to the vast majority of people (espeically those who aren't as integrated in the scene such as idk...potential sponsors) IS the "dota genre"
Language changes and it means what the majority wants it to mean. To complain about something as trivial as this now smacks of elitism and is not what people should subscribe to if they want this marginal scene to become an "e-sport
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Um, hunter did massive amounts of damage to the genre of moba. He was also viviendi , right? Forming a company that did not exist at all to pay casters and tournaments, seriously damaging the reputation of hon as a competitive game. Sure, s2 didn't the best job in that area but he undercut their efforts throughout all of their lengthy beta.
This isn't really an ad hom argument - I don't care that he was a pedophile. I care that he did almost everything he could to damage the moba community, and his term "moba" is still being used. It's like a far right guy coming up with the term climate change instead of global warming (which fits closer to his agenda).
I've always been a fan of RPRTS - it's an rts based on role-playing game's mechanics, that effectively uses this mechanics in a real time simulation that creates a strategy game based upon a flow of time.
It's hard to come up with a similar example for teamliquid as there aren't many infamous users who still post. Basically, imagine if the person who wrote a really negative article on esports coined a new term for it (like f-sports (fake-sports) and then everyone in popular media started using that term instead of e-sports).
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Oh yeah, by the way, all the bad stuff Hunter did is fact, but don't keep spreading the rumor that he's a pedophile based on what one guy who holds a grudge against him says he saw. Maybe they were just pics of 15-16 year old girls, or maybe the pics don't exist at all, who fucking knows. It's a rumor that developed from thin air.
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Besides all its history, MOBA, in spite of its generic nature, better describes a game similar to Wow arena or Avatar arena and a plethora of other custom games in contrast to Dota.
Yes, using very generic definitions, many games could be called "real time strategy", but the whole point of categorizing things is to separate things from other things. Real time describes the time and control intensive nature of this type of strategy game; turn based is another kind of game that lacks this emphasis of time. Likewise, Real time tactics refers to the more micromanagement, less economical subset of these games (the term tactics does not carry the implication of economic management in this case). Sure, the terms are not 100% precise, but each word in these genre names does imply something specific about the game. The idea of a battle arena did NOT come from dota, but better corresponds to games like Wow Arena, Bloodline champions, etc. Simply put, in the history of video games, Dota and its derivatives are not "Battle Arenas" in the normal sense of the term.
ARTS, while not a perfect term, does combine two terms familiar to gamer lingo: Action, and RTS. Action as a genre is widely used, and has the basic meaning of "controlling one character", and implies a game which requires quick reflexes, thinking, and accuracy. RTS brings to mind economy management, unit control, and time based combat. While Dota certainly lacks certain qualities that we expect from an RTS game, for example, a multitude of units, a match of Dota certainly resembles RTS games in some ways in its chrateristics. I would argue a proper name for the genre would ideally bring out the Action, RPG (Leveling and items), Strategy, Time, and Team aspects of Dota. ARTS gets 3/5 of these, while MOBA gets gets arguably 1? The point is, we could do a lot better than MOBA, and we're at a stage in the life of this genre where we can still decide on a proper name, or multiple names if the need arises (Like RTS vs RTT). If you don't believe this point, simply look at the polls of which genre name people prefer; clearly there's no consensus which name is the official one yet and there's at least room for debate.
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But 5-s and Nevuk I only hate hunter and made this thread punching my keyboard in rage and wondering why people use a word coined by a pedo. My entire OP is only vendetta against hunter duh.
Also I can google moba, it's the proper name kthx.
+ Show Spoiler +
Edit: Also, I'm a racist and a grammar nazi.
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On October 28 2011 13:56 CountChocula wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 13:45 mordk wrote:On October 28 2011 13:29 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 06:44 paper wrote:On October 28 2011 06:30 Ganfei2 wrote:On October 28 2011 04:39 paper wrote:
It blows my mind that people use MOBA to describe a genre when it could describe any game. It's like renouncing every noun in the dictionary and using the word "thing" to describe anything and everything. Um every single genre description is that Real Time Strategy? Almost every game has that. Tetris is an RTS Role Playing Game? Any game that involves playing anything other than yourself is role playing MMO? Any game with thousands of people and online is a MMO FPS is probably the most descriptive of any of the genres descriptors, but still is vague -- Oblivion is an FPS when you're using a bow and arrow. Oh but wait, what's that? FPS games always involve guns? Why? Because they term has been used categorically enough that it has entered the English lexicon as connoting shooting guns and not other weapons. HI GANFEI~! ( ´・‿-) ~ ♥ Do you see why object B can fit under A, but B doesn't completely describe A? YAY! Is this for real? Do you realize you're bolstering my point? lol. It is, but your point is wrong. Tetris is not an RTS, RTS is defined by commanding "units" against an opponent in a real time scenario, since tetris doesn't have an opponent (AI or human), it can't be considered an RTS. RPG involves playing a specific character from a "personal" perspective and directly determining its actions and relationships in the game world. Playing the "commander" role of an army from a standard RTS point doesn't fit the genre. MMO? It is actually defined not by the absolute amount of players, but by the amount of players in a persistent, single server. Millions of people will play Diablo 3, and that doesn't make it an MMO because it's not a single, persistent server or world, but is rather played on different ones. MOBA, on the other hand, has no real definition, and can pretty much describe anything. It's a bad term. But don't you realize what you're doing? You're saying "RTS is defined by commanding units against an opponent in a real time scenario", which is giving it a "connotation" that goes beyond the simple "definition" of Real Time Strategy. Ganfei was being facetious by taking the term at face value and including Tetris under the RTS category pointing out that Tetris also happens in real time and involves strategy. Most people who try to argue the point that MOBA can include games like Starcraft or WoW are doing the same thing Ganfei is doing except Ganfei is actually aware what he ( implicit assumption since we are on the internet) is doing is ridiculous—namely taking MOBA at its definition (and ignoring any possible connotation), but holding terms like RTS and FPS to a way looser standard. OT: Let sleeping ghosts lie. In 10 years time, no one will remember the term was coined by a no-name scammer. At best, it will be noted down as an interesting anecdote somewhere.
No one is taking RTS and FPS to a looser standard because these acronyms got to the heart of the genre itself a very long time ago. Sure, you can misconstrue their literal meanings, but that's completely retarded because discounting the main focus of the genre for some small tidbit that applies to the game is inane. (Ganfei calling Tetris, a puzzle game, an RTS just because there's strategy in it rofl u srs brah? I think we should all agree to call him a complete idiot even though there might only be a little idiocy in him.)
The main point is that DotA is a relatively new genre, and to give it such a generic and inaccurate acronym like MOBA after the gaming community has established such a wide and diverse categorization method that has worked for ages is SENSELESS.
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It shall be called RTHA = Real Time Hero Arena and now I rest.
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On October 28 2011 05:59 Ack1027 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 05:41 NeoIllusions wrote:
So much unbelievable hearsay in the OP. The best argument you have is "Let's not use a term popularized, not even coined, by an alleged pedophile"?
Really?
Only substantial point I got from this is that Hunter_ is a bad apple in the eyes of some people. It's not unbelievable, and it's not hearsay. The point is: There is an opportunity to use a word other than MOBA while the genre is still being developed. Polls on TL itself show that MOBA is not even the most popular term. There are a lot of reasons to not use it. You are essentially identifying yourself with someone who is trash because you are too lazy to use another term which has no negative connotations and is more technically correct in every way. A lot of people can't read....like for example: Show nested quote +On October 28 2011 05:48 Fkyx wrote:
Grammar nazi? Maybe you should pay attention to your own grammar before you make that claim. I said I was not a grammar nazi so your whole post is useless. Edit: Do you call black people niggers, [ politically incorrect and scummy in nature just like moba ] cuz that's what you wanna use? Even if you despise the racist white people who popularized it? My point is not cause<>effect. You are co-relating yourself with a word like nigger just because you [ some dota/hon/lol follower ] wants to use the word MOBA. Funny how the people defending moba can't comprehend rational information and think far enough ahead to see that its not just an ad-hominem based plea for avoidance. User was warned for this post
yeah you just need to chill abit mate 
words made by bad men have not gone away because they're bad...
hell since someone used the "grammar nazi" stuff, it jolted my memory
the good old american sport, american football, have a nice little term "a blitz"
taken from the nice little tactic made popular by nazi germany during the second world war... "the blitzkrieg
now hop off and try to get that tern out of the minds of avarage men
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EPT
