EPT[H] Sad PvT loss - Page 3
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pezzaperry
142 Posts
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m000j000
Canada33 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:17 Skaggs wrote: Aww shucks... we don't want to turn this thread into this, do we? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_Global_StarCraft_II_League_October/Code_S#Racial_Distribution http://imgur.com/Jvlvy No good link for this one, but MMA 2-0'd NesTea and MC in the AOL the other night. And in 2 hours MarineKing will be owning TricksteR and LosirA. I mean... come on. This isn't opinion; this is fact. Oh man. Lots of Terran's are in GSL! ...Good thing they are winning a lot more than usual, right?...Wait, they are only winning 6% more? Oh. One of the best Terran's 2-0'd NesTea and MC? Guess that means it's Terran being OP, and MMA is just horrible. Insulting beside, I'm a diamond P and PvT is my easiest matchup atm, Zealot/Archon is ridiculously strong right now against T (unless they incorporate heavy, heavy ghost play). It also happens to be a strong counter against both Marauders and Tanks, both of which you seemed to have issues with. Good for shutting down drops, too. You can keep a few Zealots at each expo to shut them down, or Zealots+a HT if you want to keep them from getting away. Just my 2c. | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:21 Skaggs wrote: Korean pro level or foreigner pro level? Surely it's not both. Imbalance is only at Korean vs Korean level! If your macro isn't pristine and you engage when you shouldn't once in a while, imbalance can't possibly affect you! Everyone knows this. Where exactly is the cut off, skill-wise, to having a 1/1/1 murder you over and over on ladder? I really didn't make this thread to get people to get up in arms about PvT, but I never subscribed to the idea that imbalance can only be felt at the Pro vs Pro level. We're all playing the same game, after all. Sure, I could macro better... but so could my opponent. He still gets Mules and mass repair, after all... I think thts exactly why u made this thread. Ur OP is pretty much a whine post about Terran, with you believe u outplayed ur opponent even tho u absolutely didn't while also having a cry about mules and stating tht Terran imbalance is a "fact". Ur time could be better spent listening to the advice and getting better at this game rather than sitting behind your 50 million cannons and complaining about balance. | ||
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Skaggs
United States57 Posts
Goddamn you insecure nerds, settle down. I don't accept ANYTHING I'm told without question. If I can't figure out why someone wants me to believe in a particular thing, then I question them and ask for an explanation. I'm not just talking Starcraft here; I'm talking life. | ||
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Picklebread
808 Posts
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borny
China481 Posts
Korean pro level or foreigner pro level? Surely it's not both. Imbalance is only at Korean vs Korean level! If your macro isn't pristine and you engage when you shouldn't once in a while, imbalance can't possibly affect you! Everyone knows this. Stop whining about T being OP then? Because obviously, balance doesn't affect you. | ||
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m000j000
Canada33 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:33 borny wrote: Stop whining about T being OP then? Because obviously, balance doesn't affect you. Whoooosh... | ||
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Skaggs
United States57 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:29 m000j000 wrote: Oh man. Lots of Terran's are in GSL! ...Good thing they are winning a lot more than usual, right?...Wait, they are only winning 6% more? Oh. One of the best Terran's 2-0'd NesTea and MC? Guess that means it's Terran being OP, and MMA is just horrible. Insulting beside, I'm a diamond P and PvT is my easiest matchup atm, Zealot/Archon is ridiculously strong right now against T (unless they incorporate heavy, heavy ghost play). It also happens to be a strong counter against both Marauders and Tanks, both of which you seemed to have issues with. Good for shutting down drops, too. You can keep a few Zealots at each expo to shut them down, or Zealots+a HT if you want to keep them from getting away. Just my 2c. No, you're right... the 5th or 6th best Terran in the world 2-0'ing the best Zerg and the best Protoss in the world without breaking a sweat doesn't really show imbalance... at least not in a vacuum... But when exactly has Terran not been #1? The stats image is right there. Through the history of SC they have always been on top. Recently nearly every tournament has had a Terran victory, with many of them a TvT final. Honestly, I didn't actually expect much debate on the subject. It seems to me like an obvious fact that Terran is the most complete race in the game at the moment. It doesn't mean the other races can't win and it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But it serves us no good to not acknowledge a fact. In my experience Zealot/Archon hasn't been very effective for me. It seems like most Terrans I play against use Ghosts early and often and they kind of nullify the power of Archons. I've had much more luck with Colossi. | ||
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m000j000
Canada33 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:36 Skaggs wrote: No, you're right... the 5th or 6th best Terran in the world 2-0'ing the best Zerg and the best Protoss in the world without breaking a sweat doesn't really show imbalance in a vacuum... But when exactly has Terran not been #1? The stats image is right there. Through the history of SC they have always been on top. Recently nearly every tournament has had a Terran victory, with many of them a TvT final. Honestly, I didn't actually expect much debate on the subject. It seems to me like an obvious fact that Terran is the most complete race in the game at the moment. It doesn't mean the other races can't win and it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. But it serves us no good to not acknowledge a fact. In my experience Zealot/Archon hasn't been very effective for me. It seems like most Terrans I play against use Ghosts early and often and they kind of nullify the power of Archons. I've had much more luck with Colossi. Even when I go Zealot/Archon, ghosts are not a huge issue for me. Simply spread your units before a fight, and Ghosts are extremely easy to snipe with feedback (and typically I never even do that. Pure archon is fun too ;P) Besides, the bulk of your army should consist of Zealots. I honestly consider Chargelots almost overpowered against Terran at this point. They are so rediculously strong against both Mech and Bio units, and I'm not 100% sure what even counters them... Either way, I would try experimenting with them. Double Forge + a F*ckload of gates can really hurt a Terran. (PS: MMA is really good lol.) | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:30 Skaggs wrote: People seem to be getting really upset over me explaining why I chose to do the things I did... as if I'm somehow rejecting all of the advice I got (which, by the way, I thanked people for). I'm just trying to put my strategic choices out in the open so people can comment if I'm making glaring mistakes in my strategy. If people think I just screwed up, when in reality I intended to do something, it doesn't help me. Goddamn you insecure nerds, settle down. I don't accept ANYTHING I'm told without question. If I can't figure out why someone wants me to believe in a particular thing, then I question them and ask for an explanation. I'm not just talking Starcraft here; I'm talking life. So whining about Terran and believe u outplayed your opponent is puting ur strategic choices out in the open? | ||
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Skaggs
United States57 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:42 m000j000 wrote: Even when I go Zealot/Archon, ghosts are not a huge issue for me. Simply spread your units before a fight, and Ghosts are extremely easy to snipe with feedback (and typically I never even do that. Pure archon is fun too ;P) Besides, the bulk of your army should consist of Zealots. I honestly consider Chargelots almost overpowered against Terran at this point. They are so rediculously strong against both Mech and Bio units, and I'm not 100% sure what even counters them... Either way, I would try experimenting with them. Double Forge + a F*ckload of gates can really hurt a Terran. (PS: MMA is really good lol.) Well, I'll try that. And yeah, MMA is really good... but he's no IMMvp. Alright, since I've allowed this thread to get totally and completely derailed, let me try to steer it back in the right direction. Though I can't help but point out the irony that the people over here at TL have no problem shelling out advice, questioning every move you make and every post you make (New hit single?), yet get all up in arms when you question the things they say. But let me just ask some specific questions so that I can actually gain some knowledge from this whole ordeal: 1. Did I come out at a loss during the attack where I killed his third? 2. Was it a bad idea to try to engage him in the middle of the map when I flanked him with DTs? (My plan was to focus down his tanks with the flanking Dark Templar while I engaged his bio head-on) 3. What about the cannons? I feel like I allocated a reasonable amount of resources to Photon Cannons to defend my third base and to defend against drops... yet I've been getting flack for this. I don't really feel confident in my ability to instantly Feedback a Medivac drop with an HT. 4. Was the Warp Prism + HT harass a waste of time and APM? It didn't really seem to pay dividends. 5. Double Forge question mark? | ||
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Skaggs
United States57 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:48 blooblooblahblah wrote: So whining about Terran and believe u outplayed your opponent is puting ur strategic choices out in the open? You should consider reading this thread before you post =) | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:53 Skaggs wrote: You should consider reading this thread before you post =) ok....dosen't change wat i said | ||
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Skaggs
United States57 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:54 blooblooblahblah wrote: ok....dosen't change wat i said oh, okay | ||
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SoKHo
Korea (South)1081 Posts
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pezzaperry
142 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:51 Skaggs wrote: Well, I'll try that. And yeah, MMA is really good... but he's no IMMvp. Alright, since I've allowed this thread to get totally and completely derailed, let me try to steer it back in the right direction. Though I can't help but point out the irony that the people over here at TL have no problem shelling out advice, questioning every move you make and every post you make (New hit single?), yet get all up in arms when you question the things they say. But let me just ask some specific questions so that I can actually gain some knowledge from this whole ordeal: 1. Did I come out at a loss during the attack where I killed his third? 2. Was it a bad idea to try to engage him in the middle of the map when I flanked him with DTs? (My plan was to focus down his tanks with the flanking Dark Templar while I engaged his bio head-on) 3. What about the cannons? I feel like I allocated a reasonable amount of resources to Photon Cannons to defend my third base and to defend against drops... yet I've been getting flack for this. I don't really feel confident in my ability to instantly Feedback a Medivac drop with an HT. 4. Was the Warp Prism + HT harass a waste of time and APM? It didn't really seem to pay dividends. 5. Double Forge question mark? 1. Yes, if you backed out once your zealots died you would have had a very strong lead. 2. Yes, you just didn't have enough units, and he set up some pretty nifty positioning. 3. Not reasonable, I don't see how a drop could do more damage than 15 cannons worth of minerals, think about it like this. You could have had 15 more gateways, double expanded with gateways, It's just unreasonable to assume a drop could outright kill you. Feedbacks don't always kill medivacs anyway, it's army positioning and observer positioning you need to focus on if you're that worried about drops. 4. I don't think you killed that many SCVs, it wasnt a waste of time, you just had to pick a more saturated base. They were also idle for some time. Your high templar control needs practice that's for sure. 5. Hard question, I don't actually know the answer to this, but he wasn't being overly aggressive so I don't know why you WOULDN'T get a double forge. I think a single forge is more-so if the opponent is constantly attacking and that 100/100+150 could be better used on a couple of stalkers and so forth. Don't get that common misbelief that people spam APM stuck in your head, rolling through gateways and cycles is not spamming, it's actually useful. You should be trying to get your apm up because I seldom see people in masters get below 100. I feel like my APM is very low when it's actually at 110, and I usually average 150~ | ||
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Demonace34
United States2493 Posts
On September 18 2011 17:09 SoKHo wrote: Your mindset that you can BM someone b/c you outplayed him and lost is trash. You lost because you could have done better. You didn't outplay the guy, your macro was better, but your decision making was worse. Accept that you lost because of your deficiencies and you will improve faster Was going to say the exact same thing, if you have a mindset that X race is always better and that you can never win because of the race, then you aren't going to look at your mistakes and correct them. Be positive, realize that predetermined imbalance of a certain race isn't going to help you get rid of your minerals any faster or help you micro and not throw away units wastefully. You are getting railed on because of all your imbalance talk when you aren't good at the game. Don't worry neither am I, but I know that my mistakes are what are holding me back and not some balance issue. | ||
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elliminist
Japan121 Posts
On September 18 2011 16:51 Skaggs wrote: 1. Did I come out at a loss during the attack where I killed his third? 2. Was it a bad idea to try to engage him in the middle of the map when I flanked him with DTs? (My plan was to focus down his tanks with the flanking Dark Templar while I engaged his bio head-on) 3. What about the cannons? I feel like I allocated a reasonable amount of resources to Photon Cannons to defend my third base and to defend against drops... yet I've been getting flack for this. I don't really feel confident in my ability to instantly Feedback a Medivac drop with an HT. 4. Was the Warp Prism + HT harass a waste of time and APM? It didn't really seem to pay dividends. 5. Double Forge question mark? I watched the replay and tbh those questions are really irrelevant for someone of your skill level. Why? because your mechanics are behind what an average diamond level player should be. Diamond level players shouldn't worker cut unless they're going all-in/defending an all-in on special circumstances. If they are it's because they've got poor execution of their build. Playing things like storm drops shouldn't be done when you've got sub 120 APM. You will waste too much time thinking about them and not focus on spending money which should be done as a priority. Too many rl friends who protoss like to do cute stuff like TC without any macro base behind it. Leave the cute stuff to after you have a solid ability to make 1-A armies. By using money as efficiently as possible, you will then learn where u have money to fit in tech. Your decision to not double forge was a bad idea. Why? Why would u want to be 'only even' with Terran upgrades when you also have to factor in shield upgrades? You need to either overpower his upgrades because cost for cost Gateway units (excl Twilight tech) are less cost effective than MM units. There's a reason they should be - Terran units can't warp in 40 rally seconds closer to their opponents with only a pylon/warp prism requirement. One of the perks to play the race, honestly. Supply blocks. Less supply blocks = less money stockpiled = more stuff. Tech. You should always prepare a hard tech switch in the midgame. E.g. Show HT then mass collosi. Mass collosi then switch to archon. Throw DTs and force them to spread out units then push hard into one point. More importantly is to decide whether your unit composition is supposed to be passive (Robo) or active (TC tech/Stargate styles) Minimal static defense. The reason it's better to have less cannons is because u should rely on your map presence/vision to deal with all the harrass. If you aren't confident Feedbacking medivacs maybe you should learn how to do it then. If you always try to close your weakness by building more cannons your opponents at a certain level will just ignore the base and expand earlier than you or skimp out on their own defenses because they know you're overinvesting money there. Decision making and strategy are another realm to worry about once your mechanics are better. If you don't want to improve your mechanics to allow your strategy to shine, your choice, but your loss. I personally believe alot of your decision making/control was very questionable that game - part of the reason why the Terran was able to win out a lot more in engagements. But since you really want to know the answers to your questions 1. Yes. Losing army is not worth it if you're trying to stay more COST efficient. 2. Why not just counter attack his bases and force him to go home or get impatient and overextend his army? 3. pezzaperry wrote a good explanation for this. 4. Do those things once your multitasking picks up. I'm not kidding; I've seen so many players QQ after gaining a huge lead with something cute but not macroing and I just catch up extremely quickly. 5. Double forge should be a standard. Single style upgrade builds aren't geared for macro. I hope you realise even if there was ACTUAL imbalance (which there isn't. A time slice right now only shows the Terran's ability to force themselves to innovate builds to win unlike the typical player from other races) it shouldn't affect people's choice to develop their skills in races other than that imbalanced race. Look at the rise in Protoss styles BECAUSE they had to evolve. Actually Protoss has innovated the least for most of the 1 year of Starcraft II. Annoyed remark aside, you're not as good as you think. This is a critique and it's for you to accept it or just not bother continuing this thread. | ||
vGl-CoW
Belgium8305 Posts
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