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On September 14 2011 20:16 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 20:02 th2pun1sh3r wrote:
how has this terrible thread not been closed yet? Lol if I posted something like this crying about balance (disguised as a discussion) I guarantee it would be shot down faster than an overlord that flew over 30 marines. We are very thankful for your great contribution to this thread. And we admire your attitude towards the game being man enough to forget about balance and learning to play. Thank you for helping moderators to do their job and pointing point out this terrible thread flooded with whining posts.
in my defense.. I haven't had the morning coffee yet ..grrr
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On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle
So wrong on so many levels... extreme examples like this make zero sense. Go make a equal COST army, not supply, and gateway units LOSE every time.
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On September 14 2011 20:20 izgodlee wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle So wrong on so many levels... extreme examples like this make zero sense. Go make a equal COST army, not supply, and gateway units LOSE every time.
Actually, I'm pretty sure 200/200 bio would destroy 200/200 gateway units. 200/200 Roach/Ling would lose because of the supply inefficiency of Roaches, but 200/200 Ling/Bling could do very well in a relatively open space.
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On September 12 2011 18:11 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. It was a serious question, not a rhetorical one. Basic Protoss Gateway units stacked up next to basic Terran Barracks and Zerg Hatch units are collectively stronger. If they do lose, and overall they do seem to do so, it's not because of their supposed weakness but because, I think, of the numerical strength of Terran units (through such mechanisms as Reactors) and Zerg units (through Larva Inject). These, especially with Terran, are then complicated by a range of other abilities like Stim and Concussive shell with which Blizzard has littered the game (meaning X beats Y but Y+Z beats X and then X needs W to beat Y+Z and so on) . But, at the basic level, Gateway units are not weak with respect to Barracks units and Hatch units. If this is the case, the WG mechanism is the only thing keeping Protoss in the game; and such abilities as the Sentry FF/GS do not compensate for the weakness of Gateway units (an idea which does not make sense if you really think about it; why not just make Gateway units stronger and let them stand alone then without the Sentry?), but rather for the numerical superiority of Terran/Zerg in those early game engagements. FF allows for the splitting of armies, especially on ramps, and GS allows for minimisation of DPS thus allowing Protoss Gateway units to cut down the numbers of opposing units to a manageable size. Gateway units can't be buffed too much, because WG or not, if they were strong enough to match Zerg and Terran early game armies without relying on the Sentry they would be horrendously OP in the mid to late game.
Speedlings are cost effective against Zealots, Stalkers AND Sentries if you are not in a wall or a choke, and you dont allow him to get ahead of you in upgrades.
a 75/25 roach beats a 125/50 stalker with 3-3 and is also faster on ground
3 marines beat 1 stalker before stim (marines are 25 more expensive, but 0 of that is gas, and T has mules)
1 marauder trashes 1 stalker before stim, and conc shells, an upgrade that is done before warpgate in every marauder upgrade, allows them to kill zealots and sentries without taking damage. Charge comes out for 200/200 after a 140 second research from a 100/150 building and after that, a 100/25 marauder can still beat 2 or 3 chargelots at 100/0 each, even though it is anti-armor
Protoss gateway has the illusion of strengh largely due to Z/T just not having anywhere near their army size in units (mis-reaction to a warpgate push) or due to forcefields cutting up an army and forcing units away or out of range.
I am not denying gateway units are decent, but if you meet a 4gate with the exact same unit cost with just pure speedling... It is lights out for the protoss, maybe even GG. The reason we dont see this much is because people drone past 20 when defending 4gate since the timing change, whereas stopping at 20 and pumping pure speedling means you kill their entire force with very few losses, instant gg for toss, the risk is that they are doing some kind of funky expand, but the original point i am trying to make is that gateway looses to speedling unless in a choke or abusing ff's and speedlings are also so fast you cannot retreat.
In order to win, protoss has to do one of several things:
1. Hit a timing and take z/t off guard, getting a burst of units so that they simply have more stuff than their opponent, mostly seen in 4gates due to people droning a little too hard in order to be "economically safe", though this is not neccesary vs such a delayed expand (or allin)
2. Abuse forcefields in some way, isolating part of the army, blocking ramps, etc
3. Get a tech advantage, and do some kind of push before the correct counters are in place
That pretty much sums up my analysis of current pro games, if im wrong please say so, but it appears that protoss cant really play a harass based style or engage outside of timing windows without using heavy amounts of blink stalkers, which die straight up to marines, marauders, tanks etc without doing all that much damage, especially without a lot of zeal/sentry support, and no colossi/storms past 100 supply puts you in an extremely dangerous situation.
Infact if i have noticed one thing, it is that protoss can be 100 supply ahead and still loose if they are not VERY VERY careful. If an obs or two gets sniped, or you mess up slightly, you are blanked EMP'd so you loose all of your shields, cant blink, cant storm and if you loose colossi you just die. There is a similar situation for terran, they have troubles loosing army easily and reinforcing, but in general, 30 supply of MMM will kill a much higher supply count of gateway, easily double without tech support unless there are full energy sentries in the mix, allowing for comebacks in a lot of situations
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On September 14 2011 20:25 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 20:20 izgodlee wrote:On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle So wrong on so many levels... extreme examples like this make zero sense. Go make a equal COST army, not supply, and gateway units LOSE every time. Actually, I'm pretty sure 200/200 bio would destroy 200/200 gateway units. 200/200 Roach/Ling would lose because of the supply inefficiency of Roaches, but 200/200 Ling/Bling could do very well in a relatively open space.
200 supply of cracklings murders 200 supply of chargelots, im not sure how chargelot with stalker behind would hold out, but even in a choke the zeals cant hold out vs the massive ling dps, which is fine, because lings are paper and get 1shot by colossi at 2 or 3 weapons
Banelings being 0.5 supply is a complete JOKE, any toss army in the game can be blanked fungalled from some high ground you didnt see for example and it doesnt matter if you have 10k banked and 7-8 bases, if you are blanked fungalled and zerg has 2-300 banelings in overlords, you will loose your entire army and he will loose some 20% of his banes
Edit: I dont mean to be toss biased i just kinda let out my thoughts on the thread
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On September 14 2011 20:36 Cyro wrote:
200 supply of cracklings murders 200 supply of chargelots
Come on, please test such things before saying them. I just threw 150 supply of lings against 150 supply zealots, and it's pretty even with the lings barely coming out on top with adrenal. In a good choke it would a slaughter in favour of the zealots.
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Well if you just directly compare toss against terran here are the figures I got, based on what I directly anaylzed from Liquidpedia (Feel free to correct me if I am wrong).
On a typical matchup of Basic Tier 1 units allowing for their upgrades along that tier, we have as follows:
Terran has Stim (170 sec), Combat Shield (110 sec) and concussive shell (60 sec).
Protoss has hallucination (80 sec) and guardian shield ( 0 sec) and warpgate (160 sec).
Now with regards to what mix there is, its 1 zealot, 1 sentry and 1 stalker.
For the terran its 2 marines, 1 marauder and 1 reaper.
Looking at it from the timings along, we can gather than terran doesn't have time already to get all three researches to compare against what the protoss need to research. So you would have to assume or leave one out of the equation (either combat shield or stim, never both)
Now from the data alone, Protoss has a total armor and shields or 390. (160 for stalker, 150 for zealot and 80 for sentry) For the Terran they have a total armor/life of 265 (285 with combat shield).
Now based on the DPS total I got from the math Protoss should deal 26.2 DPS regularly (29 dps if armored).
If it's terran, they would deal 28 DPS regularly (37.1 DPS if light, 47.4 DPS with stim against light, 34.7 DPS against armored, 48.3 DPS against armored with stim)
Now all units of terran are ranged, before the zealot and sentry even have a chance to attack or shoot the terran does 37.1 DPS to either of the two. Assuming you have guardian shield on that's 35.1 DPS dealt immediately to your protoss frontline. Before the zealot can engage anyone of the nearest units, he will need 2 starcraft seconds given he has a 2.25 movespeed and the nearest unit is the reaper, not the marine.
Within that time frame, only the stalker and the sentry have a chance to shoot/engage dealing around 12.9 DPS only for that time frame as its either the marine or reaper who are engaging closer. At 12.9 dps X 2 seconds, you get a total of 25.8 DMG only dealt to the front line for the protoss side, while the Terran has already dealt a considerable 70.2 DMG, almost enough either kill the sentry next shot or already half life's the zealot.
This already excludes kiting scenario as when we include that it is a no brainer and the protoss just flat out looses as the zealot will take a whole lot of time before he can engage and damage would be more than half his total life already.
Assuming no kiting, the zealot finally engages at the third second against the reaper to lower dmg against light, 25.8 DMG (2 sec mark) + 26.2 DPS = 52 DMG (@ 3rd second) = enough to finally kill the reaper. Also at the 3rd second mark, the terran has dealt 70.2 DMG (2 sec mark) + 35.1 DPS (@ 3rd second) = 105.3 DMG = enough to kill the sentry (40 HP/40 shield = 80 total) or lower the zealot to just 44.7 armor.
@ the 4th second, zealot engages the 1st marine, total DPS dealt now is 26.2 DPS, terran adds on 20.7 DPS. Both need 2.2 ~ 2.5 seconds to take out 1 marine and the zealot.
After the 6th second, we only have 1 marine + 1 marauder against 1 sentry and 1 stalker. Engaging the stalker, we now deal 20.4 DPS if we were to engage the stalker, or 13.7 DPS if we were to engage the sentry, less 2 DPS as long as guardian shield is up.
At this time, you have a total of just 55 + 125 for the terran and 160 + 80 for the protoss.
This might look like the advantage to the protoss and the units might look stronger if we just put it in this scenario but in order for this to happen, the terran shouldn't move and just stand there and fire. This whole arithmetic or how "weakened" the gateway units are because of the warpgate feature falls true just because you already put in user input (micro) into the equation, we haven't even considered what if he got stim yet.
If the whole terran group just stuttered step a bit then fired then it would take longer for the zealot to reach them, I'm assuming half a second addition to the DPS, every stutter step. I know this doesn't consider yet reinforcing variables such as reactors and pylon position, but just by looking at how the damage needs to be done in order for the protoss to come out on top means that the opposing team doesn't respond or give any input.
I didn't include zerg as it was impossible to consider for splash damage as it pretty much is an open variable, and I was confused at what liquipedia meant by DPS for the zergling and baneling damage, if it meant strictly just 1 or half the food count or both already and that the baneling damage doesn't appear to one shot non combat shield marines as the total shows 35 only in liquipedia.
Anyway, toss gateway units do appear and act weaker compared to their counterparts once you put in other variables just because they had to be weakened for the warpgate tech not to make them too strong and decimate the opponent.
I know the scenario doesn't consider yet conjuring up 2 zealots using the remaining energy of the sentry for hallucination but I think most would get the gyst of it of how relatively weak the units are compared their counterparts just because of the warp in design.
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On September 08 2011 19:25 Pzar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2011 19:07 MCMXVI wrote:
Good read, and I agree. Not only is it easier for terran to macro than for protoss and zerg (warp in and larva injects instead of queue queue queue), but to your question; how should they make offensive warp-ins weaker? Units spawn with less shields or armor or something? Well, jus thinking out loud here, but I never understood why warpgates allowed for higher production throughput than gateways. It made more sense to me that you should be giving up -something- (resources or time) to gain the front-loaded anywhere there's a power field style of unit creation. Especially given that you can convert warpgates back to gateways. Plus it'd be cool to see gateways<->warpgates happening as protoss move between defensive and offensive =P
This is a really interesting point. Although if gateways were to be buffed, proxy gates would gain too much usage. Really dig your thinking though.
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On September 14 2011 18:11 Rutok wrote:
How about 2 cannons and 2 zealots?
Or switch from xel naga to the shakuras natural.
I've said multiple times that narrow choke naturals are the most fair maps for Protoss.
Also for cannons you need a forge, have to add that cost/time in as well. So 2 zealots, 1 cannon 1 forge.
Its the early early early scales where Toss sucks, because of the forge cost.
Everyone comparing 150 or 200 food armies is missing the point. I'm talking about freakin 1gate expos. You have <30 food at that point. And in a defensive context. No creep or bunkers or spines, and no choke. Why should Protoss require map designers to make naturals with chokes?
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sorry, when i said 200food of gateway units beats 200food of hatch tech, i didnt intend for cracklings or speed banelings to be possible
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of bio units. stim/conc/combat shields upgrades, nothing upgraded for the protoss. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what allows the toss to win is because even if the terran only stims his front units, each stim still takes so much health away from the terran units and with 200food of gateway units, the toss has unlimited forcefields and guardian shields and with average micro will destroy the terran easily
terran is not allowed to have any medivacs
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of hatch tech units. ling speed can be upgraded. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what makes toss gateunits units powerful is they are very supply effective so they snowball alot. guardian shield makes marauders and marines do such low dps to zealots that as long as you have plenty sentries it makes the bio units do much less damage and then forcefields and zealots/stalkers rip it up
ive tested it in the unit tester about a dozen times with a few master terran friends as long as the toss isnt a retard with his FF's he will win
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Very well thought out post, I never considered Warp Gate in such a way. I can imagine a shield battery would make immortals suuuper useful and awesome defensive tools. Man I'd kill for a shield battery.
I think a problem lies with the absurdly low dps stalkers do. If they did more, it'd break timing pushes like 6-gate blink. But on the otherhand, Stalkers are so pathetic in the late game with their measley 17 damage vs armored. I really think little can be done about that unfortunately so I'll live with it.
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On September 15 2011 07:45 roymarthyup wrote:
sorry, when i said 200food of gateway units beats 200food of hatch tech, i didnt intend for cracklings or speed banelings to be possible
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of bio units. stim/conc/combat shields upgrades, nothing upgraded for the protoss. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what allows the toss to win is because even if the terran only stims his front units, each stim still takes so much health away from the terran units and with 200food of gateway units, the toss has unlimited forcefields and guardian shields and with average micro will destroy the terran easily
terran is not allowed to have any medivacs
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of hatch tech units. ling speed can be upgraded. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what makes toss gateunits units powerful is they are very supply effective so they snowball alot. guardian shield makes marauders and marines do such low dps to zealots that as long as you have plenty sentries it makes the bio units do much less damage and then forcefields and zealots/stalkers rip it up
ive tested it in the unit tester about a dozen times with a few master terran friends as long as the toss isnt a retard with his FF's he will win
ummm
this is so dependant on the unit composition of both races, that u cant really say 200 this beat 200 that
all depends how many zealots sentries and stalkers u went, compared to how many maur and marine he went
different amounts of each will beat the other
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Well, jus thinking out loud here, but I never understood why warpgates allowed for higher production throughput than gateways.
im not saying it's a good idea or not but the reasoning is probably that warp gate tech is an upgrade and it's an expensive early-game upgrade so why not give it 2 buffs instead of one
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THIS is the way to talk about balance/game mechanics, well done.
I don't agree with everything you stated but certainly P's defenders advantage is relatively weak and there is a seeming lack of viable builds for P. I still believe HOTS will fix most of these problems even as the upcoming patch will help to balance the current game.
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On September 15 2011 07:37 susySquark wrote:
Why should Protoss require map designers to make naturals with chokes?
this
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Protoss are the new Zerg of TL.
On September 14 2011 20:25 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 20:20 izgodlee wrote:On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle So wrong on so many levels... extreme examples like this make zero sense. Go make a equal COST army, not supply, and gateway units LOSE every time. Actually, I'm pretty sure 200/200 bio would destroy 200/200 gateway units. 200/200 Roach/Ling would lose because of the supply inefficiency of Roaches, but 200/200 Ling/Bling could do very well in a relatively open space.
Correctly use sentry's and win.
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On September 15 2011 07:45 roymarthyup wrote:
sorry, when i said 200food of gateway units beats 200food of hatch tech, i didnt intend for cracklings or speed banelings to be possible
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of bio units. stim/conc/combat shields upgrades, nothing upgraded for the protoss. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what allows the toss to win is because even if the terran only stims his front units, each stim still takes so much health away from the terran units and with 200food of gateway units, the toss has unlimited forcefields and guardian shields and with average micro will destroy the terran easily
terran is not allowed to have any medivacs
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of hatch tech units. ling speed can be upgraded. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what makes toss gateunits units powerful is they are very supply effective so they snowball alot. guardian shield makes marauders and marines do such low dps to zealots that as long as you have plenty sentries it makes the bio units do much less damage and then forcefields and zealots/stalkers rip it up
ive tested it in the unit tester about a dozen times with a few master terran friends as long as the toss isnt a retard with his FF's he will win
If protoss can have voidrays why cant terran have medivacs? also the terran can get ghosts out relatively early and they count as bio. Also, simulated engagements do not happen in this game. when do you go up against a toss who has 200 food worth of gateway units and zerg with 200 food worth of hatch tech with no upgrades. Shit like this is not even worth posting because it doesnt accomplish anything. Terran bio has emp quite early which makes sentries null and void. Also assuming 200/200 maxed armies , if the Terran micro's the zealots should only get one or two hits off when charge cd is used. maruaders have 6 range stalkers have 6 as well.
Stalker--- shit ton of zealots ---6--- maruader
stalker----------------~ greater than 6------------------- maruader
distance between both is greater than 6 which means the stalker is not doing any dps
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On September 15 2011 10:10 spicyredcurry wrote:Show nested quote +On September 15 2011 07:45 roymarthyup wrote:
sorry, when i said 200food of gateway units beats 200food of hatch tech, i didnt intend for cracklings or speed banelings to be possible
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of bio units. stim/conc/combat shields upgrades, nothing upgraded for the protoss. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what allows the toss to win is because even if the terran only stims his front units, each stim still takes so much health away from the terran units and with 200food of gateway units, the toss has unlimited forcefields and guardian shields and with average micro will destroy the terran easily
terran is not allowed to have any medivacs
200food of gateway units (zealot/sentry/voidray) beats 200food of hatch tech units. ling speed can be upgraded. 3/3/3 vs 3/3 or no upgrades the toss wins
what makes toss gateunits units powerful is they are very supply effective so they snowball alot. guardian shield makes marauders and marines do such low dps to zealots that as long as you have plenty sentries it makes the bio units do much less damage and then forcefields and zealots/stalkers rip it up
ive tested it in the unit tester about a dozen times with a few master terran friends as long as the toss isnt a retard with his FF's he will win If protoss can have voidrays why cant terran have medivacs? also the terran can get ghosts out relatively early and they count as bio. Also, simulated engagements do not happen in this game. when do you go up against a toss who has 200 food worth of gateway units and zerg with 200 food worth of hatch tech with no upgrades. Shit like this is not even worth posting because it doesnt accomplish anything. Terran bio has emp quite early which makes sentries null and void. Also assuming 200/200 maxed armies , if the Terran micro's the zealots should only get one or two hits off when charge cd is used. maruaders have 6 range stalkers have 6 as well. Stalker--- shit ton of zealots ---6--- maruader stalker----------------~ greater than 6------------------- maruader distance between both is greater than 6 which means the stalker is not doing any dps
i meant stalker instead of voidray
i am only trying to make the argument that protoss gateway units are not weaker than other races T1 units
voidrays are not a gateway unit. i didnt mean voidrays, i meant stalker
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I think the argument that Zerg has more of a defender's advantage than Protoss is laughable.
You use the ramp as an example? When have you ever seen Zerg defending a push with a single base?
That ramp is what Protoss uses to crush the Zerg's chance of defense, i.e. forcefielding it to prevent reinforcements.
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Shield battery is a good idea. Offensively, I can imagine building shield batteries under warp prisms during battle. Oh shit!! That would be so cool!
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EPT
