|
With the reduced vision when walking up ramps protoss should at least gain a little bit of a better defenders advantage.
I also cant really see an inherent disadvantage here. If anything its the fault of protoss getting either too greedy or too comfortable.
The op mentions zerg having the upper hand when defending by placing a spine crawler at their natural.. Well.. then what keeps the attacker from simply walking past that?
Protoss may have the biggest defenders advantage of all races: The ability to completely wall off with buildings and STILL being able to warp in units outside of their base to flank / counterattack.
I also dont think you can write cannons off simply because they require an "absurd deviation from normal tech" The only protoss builds that dont get a forge are the ones that rely on some form of all in timing push.. and those dont need any defense anyway.
Also trying to illustrate the defense of the xel naga natural and then giving the protoss 1 sentry just because it may cost the same as 1 bunker with 2 marines is not really the best example. How about 2 zealots? Or 1 stalker 1 zealot? (costs a bit more but still "achievable") But doesnt sound so impossible now against light pressure right?
Perhaps the point i am trying to make would be better explained by not calling it "defenders advantage" but rather "attackers disadvantage"
If i as a Terran or Zerg try to attack a Protoss, my reinforcements have to walk across the whole map. That takes a lot of time (varies obiously..). That means with or without warpgates, every other race is limited when it comes to maintaining constant pressure without overextending.
|
On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time.
It was a serious question, not a rhetorical one. Basic Protoss Gateway units stacked up next to basic Terran Barracks and Zerg Hatch units are collectively stronger. If they do lose, and overall they do seem to do so, it's not because of their supposed weakness but because, I think, of the numerical strength of Terran units (through such mechanisms as Reactors) and Zerg units (through Larva Inject). These, especially with Terran, are then complicated by a range of other abilities like Stim and Concussive shell with which Blizzard has littered the game (meaning X beats Y but Y+Z beats X and then X needs W to beat Y+Z and so on) . But, at the basic level, Gateway units are not weak with respect to Barracks units and Hatch units.
If this is the case, the WG mechanism is the only thing keeping Protoss in the game; and such abilities as the Sentry FF/GS do not compensate for the weakness of Gateway units (an idea which does not make sense if you really think about it; why not just make Gateway units stronger and let them stand alone then without the Sentry?), but rather for the numerical superiority of Terran/Zerg in those early game engagements. FF allows for the splitting of armies, especially on ramps, and GS allows for minimisation of DPS thus allowing Protoss Gateway units to cut down the numbers of opposing units to a manageable size. Gateway units can't be buffed too much, because WG or not, if they were strong enough to match Zerg and Terran early game armies without relying on the Sentry they would be horrendously OP in the mid to late game.
|
I've been saying it to myself since sc2 came out and now it seems there is some (debatable) concrete evidence to support my thoery of old...
Shield Battery, where art thou?
|
What I don't understand is why warpgate is so cheap. If it were more expensive, gateway units wouldn't have to be nerfed so hard because shelling money into the upgrade would make any army post-warpgate that much smaller. It just seems ridiculous that such a powerful ability is given a 50/50 price tag and then everything is balanced around that.
|
Warp is the most fun mechanic taking the boring drugery that was BW protoss mechanics and making it exciting.
Mechanically Protoss is easier than terran. Or at least thats how it feels to me.
|
On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time.
200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded
200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed)
if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle
|
Gateway units are not weak. Guys, they're fine in non-defensive engagements. Theres just no context in which a smaller force can kill a larger one other than chokes, and even then that requires a critical mass of sentries.
Put it this way, if you wanted to defend a natural on XNCaverns, which would you rather have off of tier 1?
2 fullish bunkers (6-7 marines), which can be repaired, and salvaged later
4 spines
2 sentries 1 stalker 1 zealot
costs about equal. On maps with a ramp, sentries are pretty good. Otherwise, 2 aint gonna do crap for you. Its obvious that the other races can defend early expos better. Is this balanced? Maybe. But it should be looked at.
|
How about 2 cannons and 2 zealots?
Or switch from xel naga to the shakuras natural.
|
On September 08 2011 19:07 MCMXVI wrote:
Good read, and I agree. Not only is it easier for terran to macro than for protoss and zerg (warp in and larva injects instead of queue queue queue), but to your question; how should they make offensive warp-ins weaker? Units spawn with less shields or armor or something?
I'd have to disagree on the macroing part to be honest, keeping up with rallies to not loose units and constantly que like 10+ units is alot harder than holding either Z, S, E, D or T and spamming your mouse for 1 second. Not to mention how much more convinient it is during big engagements as protoss to keep up with your macro, assuming you have decent enough pylons spread out.
I can see how it might be easier for someone who is used to constantly queing units, having played other RTS games before, but it's not by any means an easier mechanic.
I play protoss aswell, and i would agree with most of that, apart from the macro comment, it's just ridiculous.
|
On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle
50 zeals+50 stalkers will be raped hard by 100 marine+50 marauders. Test it if you don't believe. You may even do it without studder step micro. If you wanna add sentries, then you should consider couple of ghosts or medivacs, since we're talking about casters.
|
"But what about Protoss? "
Force field
Cannon
Guardian Shield
Hallucinated units
|
On September 14 2011 18:44 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle 50 zeals+50 stalkers will be raped hard by 100 marine+50 marauders. Test it if you don't believe. You may even do it without studder step micro. If you wanna add sentries, then you should consider couple of ghosts or medivacs, since we're talking about casters.
Emm no, he is talking about basic units. Protoss has sentries as well when he builds the cybercore, you cannot just take those away. And they will allow protoss gateway units to rape any combination of basic barracks units (marine, marauder, reaper).
|
make gateway build times quicker with warp ins slower....that way we get interesting mechanics
|
I don't think that the warpgate tech broke toss...but more the combination of warpgate tech and tier 1,5 forcefields. Without sentries, toss in its current state would get roflstomped hard in the early game both vs zerg and vs terran. Not only the easy reinforcements, but furthermore the forcefields that allow for a much greater cost-efficiency are the reason why zealots/stalkers are pretty crappy units.
|
On September 14 2011 18:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 18:44 bokeevboke wrote:On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle 50 zeals+50 stalkers will be raped hard by 100 marine+50 marauders. Test it if you don't believe. You may even do it without studder step micro. If you wanna add sentries, then you should consider couple of ghosts or medivacs, since we're talking about casters. Emm no, he is talking about basic units. Protoss has sentries as well when he builds the cybercore, you cannot just take those away. And they will allow protoss gateway units to rape any combination of basic barracks units (marine, marauder, reaper).
How about you actually test that. The 100 Marines alone will roll the 50/50 Zealot Stalkers or w.e Zealot/Sentry/Stalker combination
|
On September 14 2011 18:59 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2011 18:44 bokeevboke wrote:On September 14 2011 14:52 roymarthyup wrote:On September 12 2011 14:56 Sweeper8 wrote:On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak? Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time. 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of hatch tech units. 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded 200food of gateway units (zeal/stalker/sentry) will completely rape 200food of rax units (marine/marauder/reaper available. stim/shields/conc upgraded). 0/0 upgrades OR fully upgraded (roach burrow not allowed) if anything, gateway units are STRONGER pound for pound than other races tier1 units. this is a signature strength of the protoss race. protoss has stronger units in a 200food battle 50 zeals+50 stalkers will be raped hard by 100 marine+50 marauders. Test it if you don't believe. You may even do it without studder step micro. If you wanna add sentries, then you should consider couple of ghosts or medivacs, since we're talking about casters. Emm no, he is talking about basic units. Protoss has sentries as well when he builds the cybercore, you cannot just take those away. And they will allow protoss gateway units to rape any combination of basic barracks units (marine, marauder, reaper).
Well, you may not be aware but ghosts have already become basic unit in TvP. Ghost academy is not that hard to get, its cheap (relatively) and you can get it quickly right after building barrack. Its on the same level as cybercore. Ghost's gas cost is same as sentry, and it comes with EMP by default. The lack of ghost usage by terrans implies that they simply get away with just marine/marauder, which means MM is already strong enough. I'm sure u get the idea.
|
how has this terrible thread not been closed yet? Lol if I posted something like this crying about balance (disguised as a discussion) I guarantee it would be shot down faster than an overlord that flew over 30 marines.
|
On September 14 2011 20:02 th2pun1sh3r wrote:
how has this terrible thread not been closed yet? Lol if I posted something like this crying about balance (disguised as a discussion) I guarantee it would be shot down faster than an overlord that flew over 30 marines.
Yes, I also think overlords should have more hitpoints!
OT: Always interesting to see these discussions, as long a they keep focus of the topic at hand. Some interesting points were made in this thread 
|
This article is ridiculous have can you have a bigger advantage than being able to almost instantly get units anywhere u have a pylon the defenders advantage remains the same except in PvP As the other races still have to rally accross the map of anything it negates the defender advantage for the other races as it allows the toss to insta reinforce, if this has been said i apologise but asking for a buff to warp gates is flat out retarded they just need a way of fixing PvP the other matchs toss already gets an advantage in regards to reinforcements etc
|
On September 14 2011 20:02 th2pun1sh3r wrote:
how has this terrible thread not been closed yet? Lol if I posted something like this crying about balance (disguised as a discussion) I guarantee it would be shot down faster than an overlord that flew over 30 marines.
We are very thankful for your great contribution to this thread. And we admire your attitude towards the game being man enough to forget about balance and learning to play. Thank you for helping moderators to do their job and pointing point out this terrible thread flooded with whining posts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
