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What makes protoss weak isn't how they spawn gateway units, but rather how weak gateway units are, how much Protoss depend on colossus, the inability to harass or punish effectively, and the cost inefficiency off every protoss unit, etc.
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On September 11 2011 10:33 Gheed wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 09:39 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 06:02 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 01:16 HolyHenk wrote:
Warp gate is the big problem of protoss and it is probably extremely hard to balance for blizzard. The problem is that warp gates give a huge offensive advantage. Imagine terran or zerg having warp gates and instantly teleporting units to your base. This would be completely insane and thats why protoss units are made weaker. This way protoss might still have a small offensive advantage but the weaker units give a defensive disadvantage. Combine this with weak static defences and a lack of detection and you can see why protoss early game is so vulnerable. Protoss does have sentries to defend but the other races are figuring out ways to nullify them and they aren't that effecient on every map. The reason that the 1 - 1 -1 build is so strong is because it exploits the weaknesses of protoss. Forcefields are quite useless, you need observers and you need the power to defeat the opponents army. Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. man.. seriously what are you talking about? first of all what does tier 3+ mean? do you know at which time in the game you have cloaked banshees? that's right, very early. the same thing with colossus, it is considered to be 'tier 3' but it comes really early if you rush for it. the only true tier 3 units i can think about off the top of my head are ultralisk and broodlord - these two do come REALLY late. The most important thing you forget though is that protoss doesn't know if terran goes cloak or not on his banshees. that's why he has to get robo and detection even though terran maybe won't eventually go for cloak. and protoss just cannot afford to go robo AND have enough (weak) gateway units to deal with powerful unit compositions like marine tank banshee. it seems to me like you forget how flexible the terran race is with their swapping add-ons and stuff. if you don't play protoss, please do not post nonsense. no offence whatsoever but calling banshees tier 3 is just wrong and untrue. Banshees come out of the third tier of terran structures; they are tier 3. Cloak requires research. An observer comes out of the second tier of protoss structures; it is tier 2.
Banshee requires Rax, Factory and Starport (techlab can be built at the same time as any previous building).
Observer requires Pylon, Gateway, Cyber Core, Robotics.
I am not sure how you count your "tiers" (there is no official definition) but obviously Banshee requires 3 builds in order yet Observer requires 4. The total build time to get to Starport is 170 seconds yet 205 seconds for robotics.
As for some AoE shield generator, it would be good addition to fix a bunch of stuff, especially in PvP which I think has the biggest balance problems. Terran and Zerg already has two defensive buildings.
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On September 11 2011 16:33 Sweeper8 wrote:
What makes protoss weak isn't how they spawn gateway units, but rather how weak gateway units are, how much Protoss depend on colossus, the inability to harass or punish effectively, and the cost inefficiency off every protoss unit, etc.
I can't believe nobody is reading the OP. The reason the gateway units are weak is because warping in strong units would be OP offensively. That's the premise of the OP.
It's obviously not "how they spawn units" which is the weakness, but the consequence of balancing that for offense involves neutering gate units, to prevent offensive warp-ins from being OP.
So, outside of offense situations, gateway units don't really hold up because they are inherently weak (in terms of unit stats) but can spawn right at the enemy's doorstep. But when they're not spawning at the enemy's doorstep (e.g. defensive situation) then they don't really cut it anymore.
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You are wrong about the defendor advantage in my opinion, protoss with easy wall in, photon canon and force field has a better defense than zerg. The problem with warp gate lies in the strenght of it : since you can warp in a round of unit in a limited time anywhere on the map, protoss' timing attacks are godly. To balance that, protoss gateway army has been nerfed down (zealot with less shield, stalker low dmg, sentry nerfed back in the beta).
So, in the end, protoss army is situationnal : at some point you have an advantage if you go for a timing attack (4 gate, 6 gate a really strong... but timing based of course) but overall if the zerg or the terran opponent build an army in time and don't play too greedy maccro wise, know the timing, then they can defend.
But in big army vs big army, the gateway army act like a big wall of unit, with no dps : only templar, archon (well... a bit) comes from the gateways and deal some dmg. Mass stalker is also a good end game combination since it can almost deal with everything, is easy to replenish, with good HP and really nice mobility.
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On September 11 2011 19:05 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 10:33 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 09:39 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 06:02 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 01:16 HolyHenk wrote:
Warp gate is the big problem of protoss and it is probably extremely hard to balance for blizzard. The problem is that warp gates give a huge offensive advantage. Imagine terran or zerg having warp gates and instantly teleporting units to your base. This would be completely insane and thats why protoss units are made weaker. This way protoss might still have a small offensive advantage but the weaker units give a defensive disadvantage. Combine this with weak static defences and a lack of detection and you can see why protoss early game is so vulnerable. Protoss does have sentries to defend but the other races are figuring out ways to nullify them and they aren't that effecient on every map. The reason that the 1 - 1 -1 build is so strong is because it exploits the weaknesses of protoss. Forcefields are quite useless, you need observers and you need the power to defeat the opponents army. Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. man.. seriously what are you talking about? first of all what does tier 3+ mean? do you know at which time in the game you have cloaked banshees? that's right, very early. the same thing with colossus, it is considered to be 'tier 3' but it comes really early if you rush for it. the only true tier 3 units i can think about off the top of my head are ultralisk and broodlord - these two do come REALLY late. The most important thing you forget though is that protoss doesn't know if terran goes cloak or not on his banshees. that's why he has to get robo and detection even though terran maybe won't eventually go for cloak. and protoss just cannot afford to go robo AND have enough (weak) gateway units to deal with powerful unit compositions like marine tank banshee. it seems to me like you forget how flexible the terran race is with their swapping add-ons and stuff. if you don't play protoss, please do not post nonsense. no offence whatsoever but calling banshees tier 3 is just wrong and untrue. Banshees come out of the third tier of terran structures; they are tier 3. Cloak requires research. An observer comes out of the second tier of protoss structures; it is tier 2. Banshee requires Rax, Factory and Starport (techlab can be built at the same time as any previous building). Observer requires Pylon, Gateway, Cyber Core, Robotics. I am not sure how you count your "tiers" (there is no official definition) but obviously Banshee requires 3 builds in order yet Observer requires 4. The total build time to get to Starport is 170 seconds yet 205 seconds for robotics. As for some AoE shield generator, it would be good addition to fix a bunch of stuff, especially in PvP which I think has the biggest balance problems. Terran and Zerg already has two defensive buildings.
You forgot the depo. Don't add in the pylon then leave out the depo just to make your point.
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So many people are just too dumb to understand the point the OP made. Many posts make me believe they haven't read the thread at all.
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I've been saying this for ages since before retail at least. A shield battery type ability was infact available pre-beta, on the dark pylon thing i believe. They didn't think about warp gate implementation at all apparently, the fact it breaks defenders advantage and removes rush distances. It's absurd.
You can't give an ability like teleport, chuck it right in at tier 1 and then balance the game around it. It's madness... BW maps were carefully made to be some exact number of seconds rush distance to ensure the best balance, it should be just as important now.
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I havn't read the whole thread but besides the differences of cooldown, the cost of a unit is another important factor of producing. Maybe its not the cooldown or producing time, that needs a bit of tweaking.
Just a sample: warpgate unit cost remains the same - gateway unit cost is slightly reduced.
Zealot: 80/0 instead of 100/0
Stalker: 100/50 instead of 125/50
Sentry: 50/80 instead of 50/100
HT: 50/125 instead of 50/150
DT: 110/110 instead of 125/125
I don't know, if this would be too much or wouldn't affect the producing in any way. But no one mentioned it before.
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It's an interesting read but I don't think much will change this far into the game.
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I had honestly almost forgotten about the shield battery, but now that I think of it, I would love to see it return in SC2. I think it would work just fine, and serve the same role as it did in BW: I.E. an emergency defense, and nothing else... which is exactly what protoss would need to hold off all-ins better. Would really like to see it out on PTR to see what would happen.
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On September 11 2011 21:46 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 19:05 Paladia wrote:On September 11 2011 10:33 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 09:39 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 06:02 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 01:16 HolyHenk wrote:
Warp gate is the big problem of protoss and it is probably extremely hard to balance for blizzard. The problem is that warp gates give a huge offensive advantage. Imagine terran or zerg having warp gates and instantly teleporting units to your base. This would be completely insane and thats why protoss units are made weaker. This way protoss might still have a small offensive advantage but the weaker units give a defensive disadvantage. Combine this with weak static defences and a lack of detection and you can see why protoss early game is so vulnerable. Protoss does have sentries to defend but the other races are figuring out ways to nullify them and they aren't that effecient on every map. The reason that the 1 - 1 -1 build is so strong is because it exploits the weaknesses of protoss. Forcefields are quite useless, you need observers and you need the power to defeat the opponents army. Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. man.. seriously what are you talking about? first of all what does tier 3+ mean? do you know at which time in the game you have cloaked banshees? that's right, very early. the same thing with colossus, it is considered to be 'tier 3' but it comes really early if you rush for it. the only true tier 3 units i can think about off the top of my head are ultralisk and broodlord - these two do come REALLY late. The most important thing you forget though is that protoss doesn't know if terran goes cloak or not on his banshees. that's why he has to get robo and detection even though terran maybe won't eventually go for cloak. and protoss just cannot afford to go robo AND have enough (weak) gateway units to deal with powerful unit compositions like marine tank banshee. it seems to me like you forget how flexible the terran race is with their swapping add-ons and stuff. if you don't play protoss, please do not post nonsense. no offence whatsoever but calling banshees tier 3 is just wrong and untrue. Banshees come out of the third tier of terran structures; they are tier 3. Cloak requires research. An observer comes out of the second tier of protoss structures; it is tier 2. Banshee requires Rax, Factory and Starport (techlab can be built at the same time as any previous building). Observer requires Pylon, Gateway, Cyber Core, Robotics. I am not sure how you count your "tiers" (there is no official definition) but obviously Banshee requires 3 builds in order yet Observer requires 4. The total build time to get to Starport is 170 seconds yet 205 seconds for robotics. As for some AoE shield generator, it would be good addition to fix a bunch of stuff, especially in PvP which I think has the biggest balance problems. Terran and Zerg already has two defensive buildings. You forgot the depo. Don't add in the pylon then leave out the depo just to make your point.
Doesn't matter. The point was that Banshee isn't tier 3 while observer is tier 2. If anything, they are the same tier.
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There could be many solutions that would help with differentiating offensive and defensive Protoss, and these are just a couple that came to mind that could be viable in my eyes:
1. adding a shield battery or equivalent structure
- PvP or rather PvX defender advantage for that matter
- would be funky if used offensively early game
2. changing the gateways/warp gates cooldowns
- make warp gates cooldown 1/3 or 1/4 longer than gateway
- requires 1/3 or 1/4 more production buildings respectively to keep production at the same level when warping in @ proxy, so it would give the defender that much defender advantage
- not sure it would be a good idea to make the cooldowns lower than they already are
3. make warpgate upgrade at cycore warp in only next to gates
- add proxy pylon upgrade at cycore that requires citadel/stargate/robo bay/buildingX to unlock
- make maybe enable warp prism to warp in without proxy warp in upgrade
4. adding a "tax" for warping in at proxy instead @ gateways
- hard to say how much, 10-15%(?)
- tooltips could get confusing
- maybe have proxy warp in upgrade from point 3. to remove the tax later in game
- or making the tax inverse, making the units cheaper when producing out of gateways
5. any combination of above
I realize most of these affect PvP the most, but that is the goal, since other matchups don't have that many troubles of getting past early game. We still don't know how 1.4 will affect Protoss holding off the 3-1-1 all-in so I would be hesitant suggesting bigger changes that would turn pretty much every matchup at every stage of the game upside down.
Most of the solutions would make switching from gateways > warp gates and vice versa a decision, unlike the gimmick that it is at the moment, set and forget.
So here's to hoping that they will make some adjustments along those lines in HOTS or WitHitV (What in the Hell in the Void), I think it should make the Protoss race that more diverse and fun to play
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On September 11 2011 23:35. Jaiden Wrote:
I havn't read the whole thread but besides the differences of cooldown, the cost of a unit is another important factor of producing. Maybe its not the cooldown or producing time, that needs a bit of tweaking.
Just a sample: warpgate unit cost remains the same - gateway unit cost is slightly reduced.
Zealot: 80/0 instead of 100/0
Stalker: 100/50 instead of 125/50
Sentry: 50/80 instead of 50/100
HT: 50/125 instead of 50/150
DT: 110/110 instead of 125/125
I don't know, if this would be too much or wouldn't affect the producing in any way. But no one mentioned it before.
I mentioned this on page 29, but i had them buff the units, then increase the cost of warping in.
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On September 11 2011 23:51 Paladia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 21:46 Numy wrote:On September 11 2011 19:05 Paladia wrote:On September 11 2011 10:33 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 09:39 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 06:02 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 01:16 HolyHenk wrote:
Warp gate is the big problem of protoss and it is probably extremely hard to balance for blizzard. The problem is that warp gates give a huge offensive advantage. Imagine terran or zerg having warp gates and instantly teleporting units to your base. This would be completely insane and thats why protoss units are made weaker. This way protoss might still have a small offensive advantage but the weaker units give a defensive disadvantage. Combine this with weak static defences and a lack of detection and you can see why protoss early game is so vulnerable. Protoss does have sentries to defend but the other races are figuring out ways to nullify them and they aren't that effecient on every map. The reason that the 1 - 1 -1 build is so strong is because it exploits the weaknesses of protoss. Forcefields are quite useless, you need observers and you need the power to defeat the opponents army. Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. man.. seriously what are you talking about? first of all what does tier 3+ mean? do you know at which time in the game you have cloaked banshees? that's right, very early. the same thing with colossus, it is considered to be 'tier 3' but it comes really early if you rush for it. the only true tier 3 units i can think about off the top of my head are ultralisk and broodlord - these two do come REALLY late. The most important thing you forget though is that protoss doesn't know if terran goes cloak or not on his banshees. that's why he has to get robo and detection even though terran maybe won't eventually go for cloak. and protoss just cannot afford to go robo AND have enough (weak) gateway units to deal with powerful unit compositions like marine tank banshee. it seems to me like you forget how flexible the terran race is with their swapping add-ons and stuff. if you don't play protoss, please do not post nonsense. no offence whatsoever but calling banshees tier 3 is just wrong and untrue. Banshees come out of the third tier of terran structures; they are tier 3. Cloak requires research. An observer comes out of the second tier of protoss structures; it is tier 2. Banshee requires Rax, Factory and Starport (techlab can be built at the same time as any previous building). Observer requires Pylon, Gateway, Cyber Core, Robotics. I am not sure how you count your "tiers" (there is no official definition) but obviously Banshee requires 3 builds in order yet Observer requires 4. The total build time to get to Starport is 170 seconds yet 205 seconds for robotics. As for some AoE shield generator, it would be good addition to fix a bunch of stuff, especially in PvP which I think has the biggest balance problems. Terran and Zerg already has two defensive buildings. You forgot the depo. Don't add in the pylon then leave out the depo just to make your point. Doesn't matter. The point was that Banshee isn't tier 3 while observer is tier 2. If anything, they are the same tier.
There are no tiers. It's a pointless concept. So the point was your times were wrong.
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On September 12 2011 00:23 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 23:51 Paladia wrote:On September 11 2011 21:46 Numy wrote:On September 11 2011 19:05 Paladia wrote:On September 11 2011 10:33 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 09:39 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 06:02 Gheed wrote:On September 11 2011 05:48 iblink wrote:On September 11 2011 01:16 HolyHenk wrote:
Warp gate is the big problem of protoss and it is probably extremely hard to balance for blizzard. The problem is that warp gates give a huge offensive advantage. Imagine terran or zerg having warp gates and instantly teleporting units to your base. This would be completely insane and thats why protoss units are made weaker. This way protoss might still have a small offensive advantage but the weaker units give a defensive disadvantage. Combine this with weak static defences and a lack of detection and you can see why protoss early game is so vulnerable. Protoss does have sentries to defend but the other races are figuring out ways to nullify them and they aren't that effecient on every map. The reason that the 1 - 1 -1 build is so strong is because it exploits the weaknesses of protoss. Forcefields are quite useless, you need observers and you need the power to defeat the opponents army. Give this man a medal. But seriously the problem when playing against 1-1-1 and the problem with protoss early game in general is exactly that: PROTOSS NEEDS DETECTION WITHOUT NECESSARILY GOING ROBO. Protoss needs more options for detection. Making your point bold and underlined doesn't make it correct. Cloaked banshees are tier 3 + upgrade, and not every 111 all-in uses them. It's perfectly reasonable to expect a player to have to build a tier 2 unit to detect a tier 3 cloaked unit. What would be the point of cloaked units if the effect of their cloaking was so easy nullified? That's not what the thread is about, anyway. man.. seriously what are you talking about? first of all what does tier 3+ mean? do you know at which time in the game you have cloaked banshees? that's right, very early. the same thing with colossus, it is considered to be 'tier 3' but it comes really early if you rush for it. the only true tier 3 units i can think about off the top of my head are ultralisk and broodlord - these two do come REALLY late. The most important thing you forget though is that protoss doesn't know if terran goes cloak or not on his banshees. that's why he has to get robo and detection even though terran maybe won't eventually go for cloak. and protoss just cannot afford to go robo AND have enough (weak) gateway units to deal with powerful unit compositions like marine tank banshee. it seems to me like you forget how flexible the terran race is with their swapping add-ons and stuff. if you don't play protoss, please do not post nonsense. no offence whatsoever but calling banshees tier 3 is just wrong and untrue. Banshees come out of the third tier of terran structures; they are tier 3. Cloak requires research. An observer comes out of the second tier of protoss structures; it is tier 2. Banshee requires Rax, Factory and Starport (techlab can be built at the same time as any previous building). Observer requires Pylon, Gateway, Cyber Core, Robotics. I am not sure how you count your "tiers" (there is no official definition) but obviously Banshee requires 3 builds in order yet Observer requires 4. The total build time to get to Starport is 170 seconds yet 205 seconds for robotics. As for some AoE shield generator, it would be good addition to fix a bunch of stuff, especially in PvP which I think has the biggest balance problems. Terran and Zerg already has two defensive buildings. You forgot the depo. Don't add in the pylon then leave out the depo just to make your point. Doesn't matter. The point was that Banshee isn't tier 3 while observer is tier 2. If anything, they are the same tier. There are no tiers. It's a pointless concept. So the point was your times were wrong.
The Cyber core is essentially the Tech Lab, or the Orbital command. If you insist on having a "tier" conversation, which is silly anyway, then you should leave the Core out.
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It messes up the basic fact of defenders advantage that most RTS thrive on to have longer more stable games
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On September 10 2011 17:57 susySquark wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 16:32 CaptTerrible wrote:On September 10 2011 15:58 MShaw006 wrote:
The OP seems to imply that warp-ins make Protoss' defender's advantage weaker. Not true. The choice of where to warp-in can only help Protoss; it can't hurt it. Protoss always has the close rally perk in PvT and PvZ, because it has the close rally perk everywhere, whether attacking or defending. PvP is balanced by definition (both sides have the perk).
It seems to me that the best way to solve Protoss' lack of early defensive structure is to make the Photon Cannon weaker at the outset and include a midgame upgrade for it, bringing it to its current strength. Not only would this solve the problem of needing an early forge to expand, it would reduce the effectiveness of the ever-annoying cannon rush. Finally if we're talking about balance then it is hard for me to say if Protoss need help defending or should even have help opening up extremely economy oriented. I personally feel like you guys can keep up fairly well in terms of economy with chronoboost and sentries, and your two base timings are just so darn good that I would feel uneasy if Protoss had access to higher economy all ins with well fortified bases. If anything the changes that would be made would have to be very carefully thought out, it seems like it would be too easy to make something overpowered. First off, cannons are right where they belong, just like turrets and spores. Toss just has no bunker/spine equivalent, tech wise. Sentries fill this role of early defense... But by making sentries to defend, you have less attacking units, so the number of gateways you have to produce before expanding with a good defense is more than the other races. And its not like sentries are free! 50/100 is EXPENSIVE. Extra sentries means more gas, which means less minerals. More sentries means more gateways for other units, which means less minerals. Which all adds up to a later expansion. Also, Protoss has the slowest econ growth of the 3 races. Some chrono must be devoted to early units and warp gate for any defense to be viable at all, and MULEs and inject are much more efficient at growing an economy. Show nested quote +On September 10 2011 17:50 Truedot wrote:
you're right, the race is inefficient. It needs to be streamlined so that you pay as little as possible for as much tech as possible. I mean, its not like there was ever the need for forge in brood war for the cannons. Its not like forge is needed for the upgrades for timing pushes which incidentally opens up cannons. And you've just gone into sarcasm mode. Great, how does anyone discuss anything at all anymore
Warp Mechanic does not make the defenders advantage weaker. THe defenders advantage is mosly comprised of travel time, vision, defensive structors, and concave. Tosses units are not weaker especially with sentries able to enhance all the defender advantages.
About the above post, u make an analogy where sentries are like a spine or a bunker, then whine about how u cant be offensive if you make sentries. Also last time i checked sentries could move and can block ramps of ur opponent.
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On September 11 2011 19:56 Brotocol wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2011 16:33 Sweeper8 wrote:
What makes protoss weak isn't how they spawn gateway units, but rather how weak gateway units are, how much Protoss depend on colossus, the inability to harass or punish effectively, and the cost inefficiency off every protoss unit, etc. I can't believe nobody is reading the OP. The reason the gateway units are weak is because warping in strong units would be OP offensively. That's the premise of the OP. It's obviously not "how they spawn units" which is the weakness, but the consequence of balancing that for offense involves neutering gate units, to prevent offensive warp-ins from being OP. So, outside of offense situations, gateway units don't really hold up because they are inherently weak (in terms of unit stats) but can spawn right at the enemy's doorstep. But when they're not spawning at the enemy's doorstep (e.g. defensive situation) then they don't really cut it anymore.
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
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On September 12 2011 10:40 aZealot wrote:
How are Gateway units weak? Weak in what sense and with respect to what? People keep saying so that it seems to be becoming received wisdom, but I am not sure if this correct. If they are not weak, then the whole premise is wrong as is the focus on WG mechanic.
How are gateway units not weak?
Of hatch tech, rax units, and gateway units gateway units lose every time.
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EPT
