Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55
On September 18 2011 11:45 locant wrote: i cant understand some zerg players atm, isnt still having neural still work on massive better then not having it at all?
I know the range nerf makes it harder but personaly i'd rather have it like that then not at all
I think this compromise is a bit rediculous dont you think? Was the no NP on massive really going to go through? Now its seems like Blizzard are really nice guys by nerfing something else. If you look at the changes to the infestor in issolation, thats a lot of nerfing to a single unit in one swoop. Im not saying it wont be good for the game, i just would have liked a more gradual reduction in the units abilities.
I like the NP nerf. The problem with infestors is that, as a terran player, they literally counter everything. Bio, bio mech, pure mech, air, any combination of things i throw at the zerg, infestors can be the solution to the threat I present. It doesn't feel right to have a mech army that gets completely NP'ed by a bunch of infestors and can't do anything about it because the few in front that actually are within range of the infestors are NP'ed, and then the zerg can just go on a NP frenzy and boom, the screen goes dark on me because my giant 3-3 mech army I've been building up for the whole game is now his and is killing itself off. Does that require skill from the zerg? Absolutely, but I can't just concentrate my way out of the problem. Zergs like to say to make ghosts to counter their infestors, and in theory that sounds good, but in practicality it only works when the zerg doesn't have many infestors out or is careless with them. FG and IT are already excellent skills that make the infestor a versatile and effective unit, but imo NP makes it just too much of a swiss pocket-knife (it can do whatever u need it to). Terrans don't mind zergs having powerful units (at least I don't), but the concept of a single unit that handles every scenario in the instant the scenario begins to unfold (doesn't have to wait a few seconds to go into siege or anything like that if it gets caught out of position, can just pop out all of its abilities instantly), and can even cloak itself and move around, is too much. I understand that infestors can be difficult to use, as I offrace as zerg, but it's on the zerg to bungle the control for the other player to have the advantage. As a terran, playing against a zerg who knows how to control his infestors is an absolute nightmare.
On September 18 2011 03:45 JamesJohansen wrote: I think the funny part is that this changes absolutely nothing and the game loses content.
FG is still a very OP ability (and I'm zerg). Its what makes the infestor so dominant and really takes away the opponents ability to fight back. Infestors WILL STILL BE HEAVILY RELIED ON. So this changes nothing. All it does is it removes a fun spell from the game that had a promise (as well as being the most satisfying thing in the game to pull off correctly).
The correct way to balance this? Improve the minor zerg units so they aren't just speed bumps for the toss and terran. Hydras are actually expensive speed bumps and desperately need improvement. If this is done? Fine nerf the hell out of FG I don't care, I want a more fleshed out useful race anyways.
NP was fun as hell and its a real shame that its going to be next to worthless now. Trust me, 9 range made for difficult usage as the enemy only had to focus on the giant slug with the tentacle that died to very little focus. If they had any competence, they could easily cause the Z player to waste 150 gas everytime he tried a NP. FG was and still is far superior.
Well as I see it, the change is basically to not have infestor the awesome counter to everything. Don't get me wrong, FG is the reason why the infestor is so powerful, but like people have said before me, the whole race is kind of... reliant(to some extend) on having FG, so they change how NP works, so while the infestor can be used against massive targets, it isn't ideal. I didn't like removing it being used on massive, but I think this is an interesting change in the least.
Ofcourse the best change would be to make hydras better in some way(though again it's a bit hard to find a balanced way, since before aoe, they arent really that bad, aslong as they can get to combat in a timely fashion[mostly thinking vP, lets face it, the design of the rine makes any non aoe unit suck in vT]).
Wat. Can't Zerglings, Roaches and Hydras all fight marines cost-effectively? I know Zerglings match marines with even upgrades (problem being that marines ultimately have more upgrades) and that roaches are pretty damn good against marines, while hydras are reasonably comparable to marines despite being so gas-costly.
Marines aren't that great. They're an incredibly versatile unit and really, really shine when nothing can attack them (drops, hiding behind siege tanks, in bunkers etc) but when you've actually got marines going up against other things in a normal fight, they don't actually shine that brightly.
...at least against Zerg. It might be a different story for protoss, because Stalkers are low dps + high survivability and zealots do good damage, but are slow as shit...
No, lings and roaches are terrible against marines in any significant numbers at all. Lings have to be ahead in upgrades and roaches can just about break even in equal cost fights if you're ahead in carapace over their attack upgrade. Hydras are absolutely abysmal cost wise. Without banelings or infestors it's really fucking hard to deal with marines with stim or just any large ball of marines. And even then if it's banelings you have to find a way to apply them without losing them all to tank shots and to corner the marines to prevent stim micro from killing all of them anyways.
Marines are really fucking good. I don;t know how you can claim they aren't when they are the most complained about unit in the game since GSL open season 2 and probably earlier.
...but they lose in a straight-up fight to either zerglings or roaches that have a single upgrade advantage, be it speed / attack / carapace / whatever.
It isn't like OH GOD MARINES 2X AS COST EFFECTIVE AS ALL ELSE. They're like... 10% more cost effective than normal ol' roaches or zerglings that are on equal ground upgrade-wise. The "problems" with marines start to come in when you start considering they've got more upgrades than any other unit in the game and are supported very well by other core units of the terran arsenal, as well as have a fair number of ways to attack without getting hit, putting them in their element.
Don't get me wrong, marines ARE good... but that's it. You don't NEED AoE to deal with them, you just need a comparable amount of units and upgrades.
On September 18 2011 03:45 JamesJohansen wrote: I think the funny part is that this changes absolutely nothing and the game loses content.
FG is still a very OP ability (and I'm zerg). Its what makes the infestor so dominant and really takes away the opponents ability to fight back. Infestors WILL STILL BE HEAVILY RELIED ON. So this changes nothing. All it does is it removes a fun spell from the game that had a promise (as well as being the most satisfying thing in the game to pull off correctly).
The correct way to balance this? Improve the minor zerg units so they aren't just speed bumps for the toss and terran. Hydras are actually expensive speed bumps and desperately need improvement. If this is done? Fine nerf the hell out of FG I don't care, I want a more fleshed out useful race anyways.
NP was fun as hell and its a real shame that its going to be next to worthless now. Trust me, 9 range made for difficult usage as the enemy only had to focus on the giant slug with the tentacle that died to very little focus. If they had any competence, they could easily cause the Z player to waste 150 gas everytime he tried a NP. FG was and still is far superior.
Well as I see it, the change is basically to not have infestor the awesome counter to everything. Don't get me wrong, FG is the reason why the infestor is so powerful, but like people have said before me, the whole race is kind of... reliant(to some extend) on having FG, so they change how NP works, so while the infestor can be used against massive targets, it isn't ideal. I didn't like removing it being used on massive, but I think this is an interesting change in the least.
Ofcourse the best change would be to make hydras better in some way(though again it's a bit hard to find a balanced way, since before aoe, they arent really that bad, aslong as they can get to combat in a timely fashion[mostly thinking vP, lets face it, the design of the rine makes any non aoe unit suck in vT]).
Wat. Can't Zerglings, Roaches and Hydras all fight marines cost-effectively? I know Zerglings match marines with even upgrades (problem being that marines ultimately have more upgrades) and that roaches are pretty damn good against marines, while hydras are reasonably comparable to marines despite being so gas-costly.
Marines aren't that great. They're an incredibly versatile unit and really, really shine when nothing can attack them (drops, hiding behind siege tanks, in bunkers etc) but when you've actually got marines going up against other things in a normal fight, they don't actually shine that brightly.
...at least against Zerg. It might be a different story for protoss, because Stalkers are low dps + high survivability and zealots do good damage, but are slow as shit...
No, lings and roaches are terrible against marines in any significant numbers at all. Lings have to be ahead in upgrades and roaches can just about break even in equal cost fights if you're ahead in carapace over their attack upgrade. Hydras are absolutely abysmal cost wise. Without banelings or infestors it's really fucking hard to deal with marines with stim or just any large ball of marines. And even then if it's banelings you have to find a way to apply them without losing them all to tank shots and to corner the marines to prevent stim micro from killing all of them anyways.
Marines are really fucking good. I don;t know how you can claim they aren't when they are the most complained about unit in the game since GSL open season 2 and probably earlier.
...but they lose in a straight-up fight to either zerglings or roaches that have a single upgrade advantage, be it speed / attack / carapace / whatever.
It isn't like OH GOD MARINES 2X AS COST EFFECTIVE AS ALL ELSE. They're like... 10% more cost effective than normal ol' roaches or zerglings that are on equal ground upgrade-wise. The "problems" with marines start to come in when you start considering they've got more upgrades than any other unit in the game and are supported very well by other core units of the terran arsenal, as well as have a fair number of ways to attack without getting hit, putting them in their element.
Don't get me wrong, marines ARE good... but that's it. You don't NEED AoE to deal with them, you just need a comparable amount of units and upgrades.
That's not really true since later on Marines are heavily supported by Medivacs, once Medivacs hit the field Lings and Roaches simply do not cut it, without something like Infestors or Banelings you simply cannot kill them.
On September 18 2011 03:45 JamesJohansen wrote: I think the funny part is that this changes absolutely nothing and the game loses content.
FG is still a very OP ability (and I'm zerg). Its what makes the infestor so dominant and really takes away the opponents ability to fight back. Infestors WILL STILL BE HEAVILY RELIED ON. So this changes nothing. All it does is it removes a fun spell from the game that had a promise (as well as being the most satisfying thing in the game to pull off correctly).
The correct way to balance this? Improve the minor zerg units so they aren't just speed bumps for the toss and terran. Hydras are actually expensive speed bumps and desperately need improvement. If this is done? Fine nerf the hell out of FG I don't care, I want a more fleshed out useful race anyways.
NP was fun as hell and its a real shame that its going to be next to worthless now. Trust me, 9 range made for difficult usage as the enemy only had to focus on the giant slug with the tentacle that died to very little focus. If they had any competence, they could easily cause the Z player to waste 150 gas everytime he tried a NP. FG was and still is far superior.
Well as I see it, the change is basically to not have infestor the awesome counter to everything. Don't get me wrong, FG is the reason why the infestor is so powerful, but like people have said before me, the whole race is kind of... reliant(to some extend) on having FG, so they change how NP works, so while the infestor can be used against massive targets, it isn't ideal. I didn't like removing it being used on massive, but I think this is an interesting change in the least.
Ofcourse the best change would be to make hydras better in some way(though again it's a bit hard to find a balanced way, since before aoe, they arent really that bad, aslong as they can get to combat in a timely fashion[mostly thinking vP, lets face it, the design of the rine makes any non aoe unit suck in vT]).
Wat. Can't Zerglings, Roaches and Hydras all fight marines cost-effectively? I know Zerglings match marines with even upgrades (problem being that marines ultimately have more upgrades) and that roaches are pretty damn good against marines, while hydras are reasonably comparable to marines despite being so gas-costly.
Marines aren't that great. They're an incredibly versatile unit and really, really shine when nothing can attack them (drops, hiding behind siege tanks, in bunkers etc) but when you've actually got marines going up against other things in a normal fight, they don't actually shine that brightly.
...at least against Zerg. It might be a different story for protoss, because Stalkers are low dps + high survivability and zealots do good damage, but are slow as shit...
No, lings and roaches are terrible against marines in any significant numbers at all. Lings have to be ahead in upgrades and roaches can just about break even in equal cost fights if you're ahead in carapace over their attack upgrade. Hydras are absolutely abysmal cost wise. Without banelings or infestors it's really fucking hard to deal with marines with stim or just any large ball of marines. And even then if it's banelings you have to find a way to apply them without losing them all to tank shots and to corner the marines to prevent stim micro from killing all of them anyways.
Marines are really fucking good. I don;t know how you can claim they aren't when they are the most complained about unit in the game since GSL open season 2 and probably earlier.
...but they lose in a straight-up fight to either zerglings or roaches that have a single upgrade advantage, be it speed / attack / carapace / whatever.
It isn't like OH GOD MARINES 2X AS COST EFFECTIVE AS ALL ELSE. They're like... 10% more cost effective than normal ol' roaches or zerglings that are on equal ground upgrade-wise. The "problems" with marines start to come in when you start considering they've got more upgrades than any other unit in the game and are supported very well by other core units of the terran arsenal, as well as have a fair number of ways to attack without getting hit, putting them in their element.
Don't get me wrong, marines ARE good... but that's it. You don't NEED AoE to deal with them, you just need a comparable amount of units and upgrades.
That's not really true since later on Marines are heavily supported by Medivacs, once Medivacs hit the field Lings and Roaches simply do not cut it, without something like Infestors or Banelings you simply cannot kill them.
...
"they've got more upgrades than any other unit in the game and are supported very well by other core units of the terran arsenal"
You just like to argue, don't you? Consider the medevac to be an upgrade for marines. If you don't have the upgrade advantage, don't expect to win against a basic unit with your basic unit. AoE is a more efficient or cost effective way to deal with heavily upgraded marines, but marines aren't so problematic that it is absolutely necessary.
The only time you should NEED AoE is when you've got 3/3 speed cracklings going up against 3/3 stim combat shield medevac marines. They've got the upgrade advantage, and you ran out of upgrades to get.
Obviously, you'd be pretty foolish not to get AoE once you're sure your opponent will have a strong marine component in his army... but to say you -need- AoE to deal with it is suggesting marines are a whole lot more imbalanced than they actually are.
On September 18 2011 13:13 ReaperX wrote: I think the next patch will be a nerf on ghosts and Terran 1 Base allins v P
Terran will dominate until either marines or mules are nerfed. Both will probably have to get hit. The way it works now is all Terran has to do is focus on eliminating the opponent's AE units and the overpowered marines will clean up everything else, even if you have half their supply. The DPS is just too high, and their ability to effectively shoot while moving just makes it ten times worse. Two marines do more DPS than a marauder against armored and are cheaper. A marine has barely 33% less HP and DPS than a hydralisk and costs 1/4th as much.
Even HOTS cannot possibly fix this without a marine nerf. You can't design a unit that's balanced against marines. Either it's high AOE damage that can't be countered and just rolls over Terran, or it can be and Terran wins every game because marines are completely untouchable without AoE. They'd have to completely change the matchup dynamic of PvT to balance it without a marine nerf, by giving Protoss an uncounterable unit that slaughters marines while giving Terran a unit that makes mech actually work.
wow is this still the patch 1.4 thread? the amount of whine is ridiculous... people think they know better than blizzard? stop thinking because even if you are right you do not matter as you do not make decisions, and if you want to talk to blizz then by all means infest their forum like the annoying plague you are.
the patch itself is fine, buffs for units that could use them, nerfs for units that seemed to be always the way to go, because why wouldn't you build fast scouting units with the ability to absolutly destroy anything labeled light and 2shot workers on top, or a caster that has the ultimate offensive arsenal of spells...
i hope the sight change for ramps increases the defenders advantage a bit so we do not only see longer games in the gsl, but also can play them (i am plat and expanding is... not happening all too often) so i think blizzard may not adress everything that could use some changing, but they certainly are on the right track.
On September 18 2011 03:45 JamesJohansen wrote: I think the funny part is that this changes absolutely nothing and the game loses content.
FG is still a very OP ability (and I'm zerg). Its what makes the infestor so dominant and really takes away the opponents ability to fight back. Infestors WILL STILL BE HEAVILY RELIED ON. So this changes nothing. All it does is it removes a fun spell from the game that had a promise (as well as being the most satisfying thing in the game to pull off correctly).
The correct way to balance this? Improve the minor zerg units so they aren't just speed bumps for the toss and terran. Hydras are actually expensive speed bumps and desperately need improvement. If this is done? Fine nerf the hell out of FG I don't care, I want a more fleshed out useful race anyways.
NP was fun as hell and its a real shame that its going to be next to worthless now. Trust me, 9 range made for difficult usage as the enemy only had to focus on the giant slug with the tentacle that died to very little focus. If they had any competence, they could easily cause the Z player to waste 150 gas everytime he tried a NP. FG was and still is far superior.
Well as I see it, the change is basically to not have infestor the awesome counter to everything. Don't get me wrong, FG is the reason why the infestor is so powerful, but like people have said before me, the whole race is kind of... reliant(to some extend) on having FG, so they change how NP works, so while the infestor can be used against massive targets, it isn't ideal. I didn't like removing it being used on massive, but I think this is an interesting change in the least.
Ofcourse the best change would be to make hydras better in some way(though again it's a bit hard to find a balanced way, since before aoe, they arent really that bad, aslong as they can get to combat in a timely fashion[mostly thinking vP, lets face it, the design of the rine makes any non aoe unit suck in vT]).
Wat. Can't Zerglings, Roaches and Hydras all fight marines cost-effectively? I know Zerglings match marines with even upgrades (problem being that marines ultimately have more upgrades) and that roaches are pretty damn good against marines, while hydras are reasonably comparable to marines despite being so gas-costly.
Marines aren't that great. They're an incredibly versatile unit and really, really shine when nothing can attack them (drops, hiding behind siege tanks, in bunkers etc) but when you've actually got marines going up against other things in a normal fight, they don't actually shine that brightly.
...at least against Zerg. It might be a different story for protoss, because Stalkers are low dps + high survivability and zealots do good damage, but are slow as shit...
No, lings and roaches are terrible against marines in any significant numbers at all. Lings have to be ahead in upgrades and roaches can just about break even in equal cost fights if you're ahead in carapace over their attack upgrade. Hydras are absolutely abysmal cost wise. Without banelings or infestors it's really fucking hard to deal with marines with stim or just any large ball of marines. And even then if it's banelings you have to find a way to apply them without losing them all to tank shots and to corner the marines to prevent stim micro from killing all of them anyways.
Marines are really fucking good. I don;t know how you can claim they aren't when they are the most complained about unit in the game since GSL open season 2 and probably earlier.
...but they lose in a straight-up fight to either zerglings or roaches that have a single upgrade advantage, be it speed / attack / carapace / whatever.
It isn't like OH GOD MARINES 2X AS COST EFFECTIVE AS ALL ELSE. They're like... 10% more cost effective than normal ol' roaches or zerglings that are on equal ground upgrade-wise. The "problems" with marines start to come in when you start considering they've got more upgrades than any other unit in the game and are supported very well by other core units of the terran arsenal, as well as have a fair number of ways to attack without getting hit, putting them in their element.
Don't get me wrong, marines ARE good... but that's it. You don't NEED AoE to deal with them, you just need a comparable amount of units and upgrades.
nope, you need AoE vs Marines. They are sooooooooooo good. Roaches and Zerglings (and Stalkers and Zealots) seem OK vs them, because in low to mid amounts, they still have a chance. The problem is, that if you continue to go roach/ling vs Marines you lose hardcore. Marines just add up WAY better than those units, because they are so small and have a lot of range, so you get an extreme amount of firepower out of a marine ball, with little surface (little attackspace --> Melee units NEED a lot of surface) If you want to know why Zs and Ps need splash, you can go to youtube and watch 200marines vs 400zerglings or 100zealots. (those vids are old, but apart from the charge change, I think those units have been untouched since the betadays)
On September 18 2011 16:31 Naphal wrote: wow is this still the patch 1.4 thread? the amount of whine is ridiculous... people think they know better than blizzard? stop thinking because even if you are right you do not matter as you do not make decisions, and if you want to talk to blizz then by all means infest their forum like the annoying plague you are.
Blizzard WANTS to know people's opinions. That's why they made the PTR server. The (official) reason for the NP change from massive to 7range, is that people didn't like the idea.
On September 18 2011 03:45 JamesJohansen wrote: I think the funny part is that this changes absolutely nothing and the game loses content.
FG is still a very OP ability (and I'm zerg). Its what makes the infestor so dominant and really takes away the opponents ability to fight back. Infestors WILL STILL BE HEAVILY RELIED ON. So this changes nothing. All it does is it removes a fun spell from the game that had a promise (as well as being the most satisfying thing in the game to pull off correctly).
The correct way to balance this? Improve the minor zerg units so they aren't just speed bumps for the toss and terran. Hydras are actually expensive speed bumps and desperately need improvement. If this is done? Fine nerf the hell out of FG I don't care, I want a more fleshed out useful race anyways.
NP was fun as hell and its a real shame that its going to be next to worthless now. Trust me, 9 range made for difficult usage as the enemy only had to focus on the giant slug with the tentacle that died to very little focus. If they had any competence, they could easily cause the Z player to waste 150 gas everytime he tried a NP. FG was and still is far superior.
Well as I see it, the change is basically to not have infestor the awesome counter to everything. Don't get me wrong, FG is the reason why the infestor is so powerful, but like people have said before me, the whole race is kind of... reliant(to some extend) on having FG, so they change how NP works, so while the infestor can be used against massive targets, it isn't ideal. I didn't like removing it being used on massive, but I think this is an interesting change in the least.
Ofcourse the best change would be to make hydras better in some way(though again it's a bit hard to find a balanced way, since before aoe, they arent really that bad, aslong as they can get to combat in a timely fashion[mostly thinking vP, lets face it, the design of the rine makes any non aoe unit suck in vT]).
Wat. Can't Zerglings, Roaches and Hydras all fight marines cost-effectively? I know Zerglings match marines with even upgrades (problem being that marines ultimately have more upgrades) and that roaches are pretty damn good against marines, while hydras are reasonably comparable to marines despite being so gas-costly.
Marines aren't that great. They're an incredibly versatile unit and really, really shine when nothing can attack them (drops, hiding behind siege tanks, in bunkers etc) but when you've actually got marines going up against other things in a normal fight, they don't actually shine that brightly.
...at least against Zerg. It might be a different story for protoss, because Stalkers are low dps + high survivability and zealots do good damage, but are slow as shit...
No, lings and roaches are terrible against marines in any significant numbers at all. Lings have to be ahead in upgrades and roaches can just about break even in equal cost fights if you're ahead in carapace over their attack upgrade. Hydras are absolutely abysmal cost wise. Without banelings or infestors it's really fucking hard to deal with marines with stim or just any large ball of marines. And even then if it's banelings you have to find a way to apply them without losing them all to tank shots and to corner the marines to prevent stim micro from killing all of them anyways.
Marines are really fucking good. I don;t know how you can claim they aren't when they are the most complained about unit in the game since GSL open season 2 and probably earlier.
...but they lose in a straight-up fight to either zerglings or roaches that have a single upgrade advantage, be it speed / attack / carapace / whatever.
It isn't like OH GOD MARINES 2X AS COST EFFECTIVE AS ALL ELSE. They're like... 10% more cost effective than normal ol' roaches or zerglings that are on equal ground upgrade-wise. The "problems" with marines start to come in when you start considering they've got more upgrades than any other unit in the game and are supported very well by other core units of the terran arsenal, as well as have a fair number of ways to attack without getting hit, putting them in their element.
Don't get me wrong, marines ARE good... but that's it. You don't NEED AoE to deal with them, you just need a comparable amount of units and upgrades.
nope, you need AoE vs Marines. They are sooooooooooo good. Roaches and Zerglings (and Stalkers and Zealots) seem OK vs them, because in low to mid amounts, they still have a chance. The problem is, that if you continue to go roach/ling vs Marines you lose hardcore. Marines just add up WAY better than those units, because they are so small and have a lot of range, so you get an extreme amount of firepower out of a marine ball, with little surface (little attackspace --> Melee units NEED a lot of surface) If you want to know why Zs and Ps need splash, you can go to youtube and watch 200marines vs 400zerglings or 100zealots. (those vids are old, but apart from the charge change, I think those units have been untouched since the betadays)
I agree with this but wanted to add something. Stimpack has to be broken one way or another. It changes damage output too drastically. Either marines do too little damage when not stimmed or too much damage when stimmed. A 50% damage boost would be broken for any unit, 50% is more than can be balanced.
It seems to me that the attempt at balancing stim was lowering marine health so that splash damage is even more effective against them. It is as if Blizzard specifically designed the game so that you must use splash against stimmed marines. And if your splash gets nullified you can't take the army on.
I dont understand while Blizzard is delivering us a watered down version of the game, while there has not been enough time for the infestors to fully develop in all the match-ups.
- The rare use of the Infestor in the GSL means to me that they arent such an easy-win as most people in this forum like to complain to be.
- From the pro-games I have seen, protoss players started using HT to great extent against infestors and even Pheonixes to counter NP.
- Terrans had ghosts and started using them to great success (see the July vs MVP slaughter)
Its really strange to see this "à la WoW" patching in an RTS where innovation is supposed to be the most rewarding factor. By washing down strong strategies, nerfing units that seem overpowered, and toying with unit-relations to have a very clear "this counters that" relationship, we are floating very far away from the grandeur of design that was BW.
If this continues in the same trend, and HotS and LotV do not bring back some of the brilliance of the past installment, I fear that BW will outlive SC2.
I really don't know why Blizz have their focus on Zerg.. I am of the belief that stalkers are in desperate need of a buff vs marine/marauder.
Many pro's (thanks nani) including Terran are standing up and acknowledging the strength of the Terran race (MVP twitter comments and POLT) which I think is great for bringing more awareness. Source:
IMO it doesn't sound like blizz will be doing much about it until HOTS though based on reading this interview:
It seems they feel Terran is fundamentally stronger due to a design flaw, with the issue being the amount of good/flexible units. The other races are going to have units added/removed in the coming expansion(s).
I really think some of the pressure could be alleviated with a stalker buff but ONLY vs terran. I am top 8 masters and the state of TVP is actually making me feel discouraged and want to quit until HOTS comes out or it is patched.
Please don't interpret this or turn it into a mindless QQ..I have kept my comments rage free and as concise as possible. TL does not want to be destroy there relationship with blizz bye hosting blizz bash threads.
On September 18 2011 12:21 Vidar wrote: I like the NP nerf. The problem with infestors is that, as a terran player, they literally counter everything. Bio, bio mech, pure mech, air, any combination of things i throw at the zerg, infestors can be the solution to the threat I present. It doesn't feel right to have a mech army that gets completely NP'ed by a bunch of infestors and can't do anything about it because the few in front that actually are within range of the infestors are NP'ed, and then the zerg can just go on a NP frenzy and boom, the screen goes dark on me because my giant 3-3 mech army I've been building up for the whole game is now his and is killing itself off. Does that require skill from the zerg? Absolutely, but I can't just concentrate my way out of the problem. Zergs like to say to make ghosts to counter their infestors, and in theory that sounds good, but in practicality it only works when the zerg doesn't have many infestors out or is careless with them. FG and IT are already excellent skills that make the infestor a versatile and effective unit, but imo NP makes it just too much of a swiss pocket-knife (it can do whatever u need it to). Terrans don't mind zergs having powerful units (at least I don't), but the concept of a single unit that handles every scenario in the instant the scenario begins to unfold (doesn't have to wait a few seconds to go into siege or anything like that if it gets caught out of position, can just pop out all of its abilities instantly), and can even cloak itself and move around, is too much. I understand that infestors can be difficult to use, as I offrace as zerg, but it's on the zerg to bungle the control for the other player to have the advantage. As a terran, playing against a zerg who knows how to control his infestors is an absolute nightmare.
Let's just face. Either Terran gets a good nerf fast, or Zerg / Protoss get a reliable, strong allround unit like the marine. Protoss has the stalker, but it's damage output is laughable. It has less (if i remember right) DPS than a Marine. Other than that, the stalker is fine. It has good speed, ground to air, and range. But it's damage is too bad to make it a good core unit.
And Zerg lacks a good versatile basic Unit as well. The only unit that can shoot ground to air is the Hydralisk. It has good damage, good damage scaling. But off creep it's slow and hasn't much HP either.
If you now compare the P / Z versatile / allround unit with the marine, you'll notice that both P / Z have heavily flawed and situational units that you don't really want to build AND are very expensive, while as terran, you have the Marine. Good up to exceptional in every aspect, and they are cheap as fuck, there's no reason not to build them.
On September 18 2011 16:31 Naphal wrote: wow is this still the patch 1.4 thread? the amount of whine is ridiculous... people think they know better than blizzard? stop thinking because even if you are right you do not matter as you do not make decisions, and if you want to talk to blizz then by all means infest their forum like the annoying plague you are.
Blizzard WANTS to know people's opinions. That's why they made the PTR server. The (official) reason for the NP change from massive to 7range, is that people didn't like the idea.
they reacted to PTR feedback, the rambling here is pointless... especially since noone seems to be talking about 1.4, but about "how the game should be IMO"
On September 18 2011 13:13 ReaperX wrote: I think the next patch will be a nerf on ghosts and Terran 1 Base allins v P
Maybe they will remove the ability of EMP to work on protoss units at first, and then halve the range?
You don't seem to realise how bad that actually would be for Terran. It would make late game TvP and even mid game TvP impossible. As Terran you need to hit the emps or you just get steamrolled by either collosus or templar. EMP is literally the only thing that keeps a terran ball safe from just getting melted in TvP.
EPT
