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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
As a Terran player I can see why Blueflame got the nerfbat, SlayersS really tore up a lot of opponents with them, although 150/150 for now just +5 dmg against a single unit type (light) on a single unit might be a bit much.
I haven't used Blueflame much myself but I've seen how much it decimates light units in casts and replays.
Terran Barracks buildtime increase I plainly don't get, currently the Barracks and OC upgrade always lined up perfectly with the SCV on 15, now it will be off by 5 seconds.
All these Reapers, Bunkers and Barracks nerfs make me feel as if Blizzard is out to kill off early Terran aggression bit by bit. The only early aggression I considered unbalanced was 5rax Reaper and that died a long time ago.
Are bunker rushes still so powerful on the lower leagues that this is needed? (I don't bunker rush myself so I wouldn't know)
Seeker missile speed buff is nice, but its slow speed wasn't the main issue it doesn't see the light of day, it's mostly the expensiveness of the Raven, the amount of energy the SM needs and the 150/150 upgrade for the missile itself.
The other race changes I can't say much about although I'm curious to see the Immortal change.
+1 range will give it the same range as Stalkers, will have to see how that turns out.
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On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong.
That's more of a user error than a balance change. If your problem is your immortals keep ending up behind stalkers why not just hotkey them with your zealots so they are always in front of your stalkers, but behind your zealots?
The range buff isn't going to just fix immortals so they make army compositions easier. I think that would eventually make Protoss OP. The goal of the buff is most likely to allow the immortal to get some shots off vs things like m&m, sieged tanks with backup, bunkers, roaches, ultralisks, infestors, stalkers, and colossi.
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On September 05 2011 22:21 Amber[LighT] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong. That's more of a user error than a balance change. If your problem is your immortals keep ending up behind stalkers why not just hotkey them with your zealots so they are always in front of your stalkers, but behind your zealots?
I heard Tyler talk about that on SOTG and I was like: "Oh......duh....thanks Tyler" haha
So now, Immortals hotkeyed with Zealots. Stalkers in own group. Sentries in own group.
Wonder what of the above would Collosus fit best with? Don't think it matters since all of the above walk "under" the Collosus, and their ranges are different.
And Archons? I usually hotkey them with zealots too, but is that the best option?
(maybe novice questions, I'm only a gold random =P )
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On September 05 2011 22:25 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:21 Amber[LighT] wrote:On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong. That's more of a user error than a balance change. If your problem is your immortals keep ending up behind stalkers why not just hotkey them with your zealots so they are always in front of your stalkers, but behind your zealots? I heard Tyler talk about that on SOTG and I was like: "Oh......duh....thanks Tyler" haha So now, Immortals hotkeyed with Zealots. Stalkers in own group. Sentries in own group. Wonder what of the above would Collosus fit best with? Don't think it matters since all of the above walk "under" the Collosus, and their ranges are different. And Archons? I usually hotkey them with zealots too, but is that the best option? (maybe novice questions, I'm only a gold random =P )
Anything that doesn't require you to tab cycle through to a spell should go on one hotkey. Stalkers on their own for blink and sentries on their own for ff & gs is a good idea for your hotkeys. Archons and Zealots on the same hotkey are really good as well since the basic premise is to keep your lower ranged units in front of your stalkers to get some good DPS and meat shield setup.
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Seems like a lot of players will use Warp Prism now more often, though i dont like the Infernal Preigniter nerf (yes, speaking as Protoss). They seem to do fine dmg there, didnt see nothin wrong with that ~~
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On September 05 2011 22:10 Thezzy wrote:
Terran Barracks buildtime increase I plainly don't get, currently the Barracks and OC upgrade always lined up perfectly with the SCV on 15, now it will be off by 5 seconds.
Why is this such a big deal? Terran always has been able to continuously produce scvs, while protoss and zerg has to wait for a few seconds
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Giving immortals stalker range will help pro players use them more effectively, too. The flip side to getting them stuck behind your stalkers at the start of the battle is getting them stuck in front of your stalkers in the middle of the battle. Getting the immortal out of harm's way after its shields have been depleted makes for a bit of active micro that can improve the efficiency of protoss armies pre-tier-3 splash, when they need it most. Though blizzard might have had a different purpose for the design of it at the beginning, I think hardened shields are best used to make your opponent think twice about trying to focus fire the immortal.
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On September 05 2011 22:36 Fist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:10 Thezzy wrote:
Terran Barracks buildtime increase I plainly don't get, currently the Barracks and OC upgrade always lined up perfectly with the SCV on 15, now it will be off by 5 seconds.
Why is this such a big deal? Terran always has been able to continuously produce scvs, while protoss and zerg has to wait for a few seconds
it doesn't seems like a big deal but is the patch really that necessary?
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On September 05 2011 22:36 Fist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:10 Thezzy wrote:
Terran Barracks buildtime increase I plainly don't get, currently the Barracks and OC upgrade always lined up perfectly with the SCV on 15, now it will be off by 5 seconds.
Why is this such a big deal? Terran always has been able to continuously produce scvs, while protoss and zerg has to wait for a few seconds
We have to stop producing SCVs while making the Orbital 
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On September 05 2011 22:36 Fist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:10 Thezzy wrote:
Terran Barracks buildtime increase I plainly don't get, currently the Barracks and OC upgrade always lined up perfectly with the SCV on 15, now it will be off by 5 seconds.
Why is this such a big deal? Terran always has been able to continuously produce scvs, while protoss and zerg has to wait for a few seconds
True, however, whilst building the Barracks we have an SCV not mining (but still taking up supply and vulnerable) and while the Orbital is going up you cannot produce anything out of it.
My point was not so much about the lining up of SCV and Orbital but the extra 5 second build time.
All it does is just delay marines by 5 more seconds, but I fail to see why Blizzard wants this.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On September 05 2011 22:25 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:21 Amber[LighT] wrote:On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong. That's more of a user error than a balance change. If your problem is your immortals keep ending up behind stalkers why not just hotkey them with your zealots so they are always in front of your stalkers, but behind your zealots? I heard Tyler talk about that on SOTG and I was like: "Oh......duh....thanks Tyler" haha So now, Immortals hotkeyed with Zealots. Stalkers in own group. Sentries in own group. Wonder what of the above would Collosus fit best with? Don't think it matters since all of the above walk "under" the Collosus, and their ranges are different. And Archons? I usually hotkey them with zealots too, but is that the best option? (maybe novice questions, I'm only a gold random =P )
Keying colossus with zealots should be a criminal offense, at least.
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I queue everything by speed. I think you need sentries on hotkey 1 with the zealots because otherwise your FF doesnt go off because its out of range.
1. Zealots, sentry, Immo
2. Stalkers, Colo
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On September 05 2011 22:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:25 bittman wrote:On September 05 2011 22:21 Amber[LighT] wrote:On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong. That's more of a user error than a balance change. If your problem is your immortals keep ending up behind stalkers why not just hotkey them with your zealots so they are always in front of your stalkers, but behind your zealots? I heard Tyler talk about that on SOTG and I was like: "Oh......duh....thanks Tyler" haha So now, Immortals hotkeyed with Zealots. Stalkers in own group. Sentries in own group. Wonder what of the above would Collosus fit best with? Don't think it matters since all of the above walk "under" the Collosus, and their ranges are different. And Archons? I usually hotkey them with zealots too, but is that the best option? (maybe novice questions, I'm only a gold random =P ) Keying colossus with zealots should be a criminal offense, at least.
It is a crime that is also its own punishment.
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Colossus should have their own hotkey, or at least should be microed alone in battle. If they're on the same hotkey as stalkers, stalkers will waste too much shots when you ff with your colossi. And ffing with colossi is an useful skill toi have, I'd say it's the most important thing to do in battle when you have 3+ colossi.
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On September 05 2011 22:51 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On September 05 2011 22:25 bittman wrote:On September 05 2011 22:21 Amber[LighT] wrote:On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong. That's more of a user error than a balance change. If your problem is your immortals keep ending up behind stalkers why not just hotkey them with your zealots so they are always in front of your stalkers, but behind your zealots? I heard Tyler talk about that on SOTG and I was like: "Oh......duh....thanks Tyler" haha So now, Immortals hotkeyed with Zealots. Stalkers in own group. Sentries in own group. Wonder what of the above would Collosus fit best with? Don't think it matters since all of the above walk "under" the Collosus, and their ranges are different. And Archons? I usually hotkey them with zealots too, but is that the best option? (maybe novice questions, I'm only a gold random =P ) Keying colossus with zealots should be a criminal offense, at least.
It still is actually not that uncommon - since you need your own group for blink-stalkers (otherwise it will be the usual ball of zealots/stalkers who get in the way of one another) and you need your own group for HTs....obvious reasons.
Unless you want to use 4 control-groups, having colossi and zealots on the same hotkey has one advantage: this would be the "a-move" hotkey, while the spells/micro happens on the other ones. Furthermore, colossi can be repositioned by selecting them quite easily, since they are huge.
For me, the question how to properly hotkey colossi has always been annoying and harder than I'd want it to be.
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Would have rather seen an increase in cost of hellions rather than a damage nerf.
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On September 05 2011 23:31 tomtom2234 wrote:
Would have rather seen an increase in cost of hellions rather than a damage nerf.
This would've forced Blue Flame even more actually since you'd want to put those more expensive Hellions even more to good use than before.
Cost would also not reduce the amount of damage they can do when dropped (since the damage would have remained the same).
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On September 05 2011 19:11 OkidokiSEA wrote:
I had a dream last night that I was playing on Blizzard's newest patch. They made it so that bunkers couldn't be built outside your spawning base area for the first 5 mins. I actually thought that was a good idea by Blizzard in my dream, negating the need for more bunker and barracks nerf.
OMGOMGOMG
Make bunkers only build-able within range of any supply depot (say the same range as a creep tumor). That way bunker rushing would be as hard to do as spine rushing. Terran could still reasonably defend and there wouldn't have to be any other rules about what constitutes as your base and keeps them available right after the barracks.
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On September 05 2011 22:10 Thezzy wrote:
As a Terran player I can see why Blueflame got the nerfbat, SlayersS really tore up a lot of opponents with them, although 150/150 for now just +5 dmg against a single unit type (light) on a single unit might be a bit much.
I haven't used Blueflame much myself but I've seen how much it decimates light units in casts and replays.
Terran Barracks buildtime increase I plainly don't get, currently the Barracks and OC upgrade always lined up perfectly with the SCV on 15, now it will be off by 5 seconds.
All these Reapers, Bunkers and Barracks nerfs make me feel as if Blizzard is out to kill off early Terran aggression bit by bit. The only early aggression I considered unbalanced was 5rax Reaper and that died a long time ago.
Are bunker rushes still so powerful on the lower leagues that this is needed? (I don't bunker rush myself so I wouldn't know)
Seeker missile speed buff is nice, but its slow speed wasn't the main issue it doesn't see the light of day, it's mostly the expensiveness of the Raven, the amount of energy the SM needs and the 150/150 upgrade for the missile itself.
The other race changes I can't say much about although I'm curious to see the Immortal change.
+1 range will give it the same range as Stalkers, will have to see how that turns out.
It has nothing to do with lower leagues that the bunker rush got nerfed.
Bunkers are still taking games in TvZ in the GSL...almost every single match actually, contains at least one bunker rush, and the 11/11, especially with a proxy, can be extremely hard to hold off.
And Even if the zerg held it off, they'd be severely behind due to the larvae mechanic.
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EPT
