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Since this whole topic degenerated into the usual balance flamefest where every topic ends up if unmoderated it's time for it to clean up. Locking this down for a while. Any posts made after my post [page 233] not addressing the changes in this patch directly and containting flames or general balance whine will get banned for at least a week. ~Nyovne
There is way too much flaming in this thread right now. Calm down before you post! (Page 271) ~iamke55 |
On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down.
Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker.
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On September 04 2011 19:22 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down. Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker.
I think the way the vision change works is you can't see as far up a ramp when standing on the bottom. It should not affect how far up you have to go for high ground vision. So it only affects stalkers blinking past forcefields to give vision and warping in on ramps which should not work with well placed forcefields.
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On September 04 2011 19:22 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down. Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker.
yes but banshy can see upergraund  so that will i think not efect poking on the ramp in 1-1-1 scenario....
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On September 04 2011 20:22 bole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 19:22 DarQraven wrote:On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down. Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker. yes but banshy can see upergraund so that will i think not efect poking on the ramp in 1-1-1 scenario....
If you know of a way to get Banshees as Protoss, I'd love to hear it ^^
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On September 04 2011 14:48 Gatored wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 12:14 Belial88 wrote:On September 04 2011 11:54 Goldfish wrote:
To elaborate on fungal change - It will help a lot in TvZ.
6 damage reduced is huge, it means the difference between life and death for Marines. Also it means decreased DPS (DPS reduced by 1.5[it was 9 DPS, now 7.5 DPS. This is still 3.5 more DPS more than the previous 4 DPS of 8 second fungal]). Medivacs can now out heal Fungal again (actually they could evenly match heal Fungal before but now they'll be able to actually heal units HP up while they're still fungaled [instead of keeping them at the same HP while fungaled]). People keep saying things like this over and over, and they are wrong. It actually doesn't mean anything for marines. Marines will still die in 2 FG. Medivacs also always out-healed FG. Numerous FG over and over on a marine with medivac didn't kill it before patch, and won't after this. Given the DOT nature of FG, a medivac will still only heal on a single marine, even if it did 4 damage, the medivac would only focus on a single marine. All the FG change has done is made it so ghosts and vikings take one more FG to kill. Just as before, if you aren't prepared with vikings and ghosts, you will get fucking rolled. People will still QQ about infestors, just like before. What I don't understand about the change, is that it does nothing to change what people QQd about (marines, gateway, HT, roaches), and only hurts the reason infestors were buffed in the first place (to deal with VR/Colossi, which take +1/+2 more shots now). Infestors are perfectly balanced as it is, and a lot of people agree with that, and the ones that don't agree with that, didn't think infestors were OP because FG killed their colossi or VR too fast, or that their superbly prepared ghost/viking composition died out. They QQd because of their marines or mass stalkers. Really? They are perfectly balanced? That explains why Blizzard is nerfing them. Genius. Also, where are all these people that agree infestors are balanced? Zergs in denial? Yea, that is about all the people that will agree with you on that one. I have heard from top zergs that they currently think infestors are too strong.
infestors are perfectly balanced the only problem is that terran protoss players are usually afraid or just too stupid so they don't see them coming (lack of scouting is a problem indeed) and even if they do they just don't react at all and that is just stupid if you see infestors you can counter them with HT/ghost and it's really an easy win if only depends on unit combo if you see destiny games you will see that it's really easy to counter infestors. it's just that people don't know how to use an army combo that requires more than A moving
blizzard made it that way that infestors will be able to crush A moving armies and that the T or P spellcaster will be able to crush infestors and help vs A moving armies in the same way so stop QQing
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On September 04 2011 14:48 Gatored wrote:
Really? They are perfectly balanced? That explains why Blizzard is nerfing them. Genius. Also, where are all these people that agree infestors are balanced? Zergs in denial? Yea, that is about all the people that will agree with you on that one. I have heard from top zergs that they currently think infestors are too strong.
If you looked at the math, you'll see they're barely nerfed. everything that took 2 or 3 fungals to kill something, still takes exactly 2 or 3 fungals to kill. It's only for units with loads of hp that some stuff changes.
and I didn't think this nerf was needed.BUT, I think the "nerf" IS needed because of the bug fix they made with neural correctly using the units upgrades now.
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On September 04 2011 20:25 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 20:22 bole wrote:On September 04 2011 19:22 DarQraven wrote:On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down. Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker. yes but banshy can see upergraund so that will i think not efect poking on the ramp in 1-1-1 scenario.... If you know of a way to get Banshees as Protoss, I'd love to hear it ^^
i thouth that he think that -1 ramp vision will afect 1-1-1... ? or ? but banshy see up ramps so i dont think it will afect 1-1-1...in other words its not nerf for 1-1-1... maby imortall will do bether...but dont know.. 
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Does anyone has an idea when will patch 1.4 go live on the normal servers?
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On September 04 2011 21:19 minimalistic wrote:
Does anyone has an idea when will patch 1.4 go live on the normal servers?
Maybe they're waiting for the Code S final to be played ?
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On September 04 2011 21:31 NormandyBoy wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 21:19 minimalistic wrote:
Does anyone has an idea when will patch 1.4 go live on the normal servers? Maybe they're waiting for the Code S final to be played ?
That would be a first.
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(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong.
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On September 04 2011 21:12 bole wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 20:25 DarQraven wrote:On September 04 2011 20:22 bole wrote:On September 04 2011 19:22 DarQraven wrote:On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down. Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker. yes but banshy can see upergraund so that will i think not efect poking on the ramp in 1-1-1 scenario.... If you know of a way to get Banshees as Protoss, I'd love to hear it ^^ i thouth that he think that -1 ramp vision will afect 1-1-1... ? or ? but banshy see up ramps so i dont think it will afect 1-1-1...in other words its not nerf for 1-1-1... maby imortall will do bether...but dont know..
Nah, the reason he mentioned 1/1/1 is because a Zealot/Stalker poke is one of the few ways of trying to find out if a 1/1/1 is coming your way, and guessing which type it is going to be.
While the shorter vision up ramps might be meant to help PvP break out of the 4gate vs 4gate state it is in, it might have the unwanted effect of making it even harder to scout 1/1/1 than it already is.
On September 04 2011 20:46 OzRe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 14:48 Gatored wrote:On September 04 2011 12:14 Belial88 wrote:On September 04 2011 11:54 Goldfish wrote:
To elaborate on fungal change - It will help a lot in TvZ.
6 damage reduced is huge, it means the difference between life and death for Marines. Also it means decreased DPS (DPS reduced by 1.5[it was 9 DPS, now 7.5 DPS. This is still 3.5 more DPS more than the previous 4 DPS of 8 second fungal]). Medivacs can now out heal Fungal again (actually they could evenly match heal Fungal before but now they'll be able to actually heal units HP up while they're still fungaled [instead of keeping them at the same HP while fungaled]). People keep saying things like this over and over, and they are wrong. It actually doesn't mean anything for marines. Marines will still die in 2 FG. Medivacs also always out-healed FG. Numerous FG over and over on a marine with medivac didn't kill it before patch, and won't after this. Given the DOT nature of FG, a medivac will still only heal on a single marine, even if it did 4 damage, the medivac would only focus on a single marine. All the FG change has done is made it so ghosts and vikings take one more FG to kill. Just as before, if you aren't prepared with vikings and ghosts, you will get fucking rolled. People will still QQ about infestors, just like before. What I don't understand about the change, is that it does nothing to change what people QQd about (marines, gateway, HT, roaches), and only hurts the reason infestors were buffed in the first place (to deal with VR/Colossi, which take +1/+2 more shots now). Infestors are perfectly balanced as it is, and a lot of people agree with that, and the ones that don't agree with that, didn't think infestors were OP because FG killed their colossi or VR too fast, or that their superbly prepared ghost/viking composition died out. They QQd because of their marines or mass stalkers. Really? They are perfectly balanced? That explains why Blizzard is nerfing them. Genius. Also, where are all these people that agree infestors are balanced? Zergs in denial? Yea, that is about all the people that will agree with you on that one. I have heard from top zergs that they currently think infestors are too strong. infestors are perfectly balanced the only problem is that terran protoss players are usually afraid or just too stupid so they don't see them coming (lack of scouting is a problem indeed) and even if they do they just don't react at all and that is just stupid if you see infestors you can counter them with HT/ghost and it's really an easy win if only depends on unit combo if you see destiny games you will see that it's really easy to counter infestors. it's just that people don't know how to use an army combo that requires more than A moving blizzard made it that way that infestors will be able to crush A moving armies and that the T or P spellcaster will be able to crush infestors and help vs A moving armies in the same way so stop QQing
Placing FF, popping GS, positioning Colossi/Immortals, Blinking hurt Stalkers is "A-moving"?
Okay.
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Deleted, accidental double post.
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Italy12248 Posts
On September 04 2011 21:42 TotalNightmare wrote:
(1st Post :DDD!)
Well, I Kinda like the patch in General but I have one thing that bothers me: Before the patch, Immortals always got stuck behind Stalkers due to their lower Range. Now when they have equal range they are still slower than Stalkers what results in them getting stuck and not dealing their horrific damage, except against Roaches. Any thoughts on this? Also I hope to be wrong.
Try keeping stalkers in one group and zealots/sentries/immortals in the other, same as before. Microing immortals will be just a bit less annoying.
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I never really noticed the immortals range until I saw these patch notes a week or so back. After that, they always seemed to be out of range.
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On September 04 2011 21:42 DarQraven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 21:12 bole wrote:On September 04 2011 20:25 DarQraven wrote:On September 04 2011 20:22 bole wrote:On September 04 2011 19:22 DarQraven wrote:On September 04 2011 12:01 Hikari wrote:
Any toss on the PTR gain experience with the vision change yet? Poking up ramps with stalkers would be harder to do because marines have another second or two to shoot at your stalker before it is granted vision above ramp.
While the immortal change no doubt would help a *bit* vs 1-1-1 marine tank banshee pushes, not being able to poke ramps "effectively" is somewhat of a let down. Good point, I hadn't thought of that. Doing a Zealot/Stalker poke seems a lot more dangerous now. You'll have to run in so far that if the Terran has concussive, you just lose the Stalker. yes but banshy can see upergraund so that will i think not efect poking on the ramp in 1-1-1 scenario.... If you know of a way to get Banshees as Protoss, I'd love to hear it ^^ i thouth that he think that -1 ramp vision will afect 1-1-1... ? or ? but banshy see up ramps so i dont think it will afect 1-1-1...in other words its not nerf for 1-1-1... maby imortall will do bether...but dont know.. Nah, the reason he mentioned 1/1/1 is because a Zealot/Stalker poke is one of the few ways of trying to find out if a 1/1/1 is coming your way, and guessing which type it is going to be. While the shorter vision up ramps might be meant to help PvP break out of the 4gate vs 4gate state it is in, it might have the unwanted effect of making it even harder to scout 1/1/1 than it already is. Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 20:46 OzRe wrote:On September 04 2011 14:48 Gatored wrote:On September 04 2011 12:14 Belial88 wrote:On September 04 2011 11:54 Goldfish wrote:
To elaborate on fungal change - It will help a lot in TvZ.
6 damage reduced is huge, it means the difference between life and death for Marines. Also it means decreased DPS (DPS reduced by 1.5[it was 9 DPS, now 7.5 DPS. This is still 3.5 more DPS more than the previous 4 DPS of 8 second fungal]). Medivacs can now out heal Fungal again (actually they could evenly match heal Fungal before but now they'll be able to actually heal units HP up while they're still fungaled [instead of keeping them at the same HP while fungaled]). People keep saying things like this over and over, and they are wrong. It actually doesn't mean anything for marines. Marines will still die in 2 FG. Medivacs also always out-healed FG. Numerous FG over and over on a marine with medivac didn't kill it before patch, and won't after this. Given the DOT nature of FG, a medivac will still only heal on a single marine, even if it did 4 damage, the medivac would only focus on a single marine. All the FG change has done is made it so ghosts and vikings take one more FG to kill. Just as before, if you aren't prepared with vikings and ghosts, you will get fucking rolled. People will still QQ about infestors, just like before. What I don't understand about the change, is that it does nothing to change what people QQd about (marines, gateway, HT, roaches), and only hurts the reason infestors were buffed in the first place (to deal with VR/Colossi, which take +1/+2 more shots now). Infestors are perfectly balanced as it is, and a lot of people agree with that, and the ones that don't agree with that, didn't think infestors were OP because FG killed their colossi or VR too fast, or that their superbly prepared ghost/viking composition died out. They QQd because of their marines or mass stalkers. Really? They are perfectly balanced? That explains why Blizzard is nerfing them. Genius. Also, where are all these people that agree infestors are balanced? Zergs in denial? Yea, that is about all the people that will agree with you on that one. I have heard from top zergs that they currently think infestors are too strong. infestors are perfectly balanced the only problem is that terran protoss players are usually afraid or just too stupid so they don't see them coming (lack of scouting is a problem indeed) and even if they do they just don't react at all and that is just stupid if you see infestors you can counter them with HT/ghost and it's really an easy win if only depends on unit combo if you see destiny games you will see that it's really easy to counter infestors. it's just that people don't know how to use an army combo that requires more than A moving blizzard made it that way that infestors will be able to crush A moving armies and that the T or P spellcaster will be able to crush infestors and help vs A moving armies in the same way so stop QQing Placing FF, popping GS, positioning Colossi/Immortals, Blinking hurt Stalkers is "A-moving"? Okay.
that's basic army control,every race need to do that and that is called a moving (except blink stalker micro)
bu that's not the point the point is that most protoss/terran players won't get HT/ghost to counter infestor and then go to the fourms to whine about how much infetors are imba and op
it's like going marine tank and not getting vikings to counter brood lords that's dumb as fuck but people just don't understand that infestors are like brood lords and that you can't let his big investment to go kill you unchecked
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On September 04 2011 22:18 OzRe wrote:
that's basic army control,every race need to do that and that is called a moving (except blink stalker micro)
Nah that's Protoss specific stuff. Protoss is the most micro heavy race, ask MC. Or Morrow who has played Terran and Zerg so has no reason to be biased towards toss.
bu that's not the point the point is that most protoss/terran players won't get HT/ghost to counter infestor and then go to the fourms to whine about how much infetors are imba and op
it's like going marine tank and not getting vikings to counter brood lords that's dumb as fuck but people just don't understand that infestors are like brood lords and that you can't let his big investment to go kill you unchecked
Your argument is moot since Blizzard thinks infestors are too strong.
I don't think they intended infestors to be the backbone of Zerg armies so, they're probably right.
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Hey guys what do you think about the Ultralisk build time decrease? I don't see it much as it is but now that it takes less time to build (without any stat adjustments) do you feel like you'd use it more? Or just not care that much (since it's not the backbone of too many armies AFAIK).
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Show nested quote +
Placing FF, popping GS, positioning Colossi/Immortals, Blinking hurt Stalkers is "A-moving"?
Okay.
that's basic army control,every race need to do that and that is called a moving (except blink stalker micro) bu that's not the point the point is that most protoss/terran players won't get HT/ghost to counter infestor and then go to the fourms to whine about how much infetors are imba and op it's like going marine tank and not getting vikings to counter brood lords that's dumb as fuck but people just don't understand that infestors are like brood lords and that you can't let his big investment to go kill you unchecked
You have an interesting definition of a-moving. If using 2 different spells multiple times, repositioning core units and individually microing back hurt units using another spell isn't micro, exactly what is, in your opinion? Only when it's not Protoss or Terran?
That aside, you're setting up a false argument. The people just playing bad/not reacting and then complaining about Infestors are not the only ones saying Infestor are very hard to deal with.
For fuck's sake, there is Destiny out there who has based an entire playstyle on Infestors alone. Explain that if the unit isn't a tad difficult to deal with for other races.
If there were players around owning up GM with nothing but Templar you wouldn't hear the end of it.
Yes, I get Templar when I suspect Infestors. Yes, Terrans probably get Ghosts. They still lose disproportionately. Have you tried Feedbacking 8+ Infestors before they can get Fungals off, recently?
On September 04 2011 22:34 IntoTheheart wrote:
Hey guys what do you think about the Ultralisk build time decrease? I don't see it much as it is but now that it takes less time to build (without any stat adjustments) do you feel like you'd use it more? Or just not care that much (since it's not the backbone of too many armies AFAIK).
Personally I can't play on PTR, but I am having my suspicions that a quick Ultra tech switch can be devastating now. In my experience you need a very specific army comp (as Protoss, at least) to be able to hold them off without losing everything (with Forcefield not really working and all...).
I'll withhold judgement until I actually see such attacks on me, though.
It might be the lategame buff Zerg needs to break away from the need for Broodlords, it might also be the thing that allows for devastatingly fast tech switches. I'm not sure which, yet.
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On September 04 2011 20:55 Talho wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2011 14:48 Gatored wrote:
Really? They are perfectly balanced? That explains why Blizzard is nerfing them. Genius. Also, where are all these people that agree infestors are balanced? Zergs in denial? Yea, that is about all the people that will agree with you on that one. I have heard from top zergs that they currently think infestors are too strong. If you looked at the math, you'll see they're barely nerfed. everything that took 2 or 3 fungals to kill something, still takes exactly 2 or 3 fungals to kill. It's only for units with loads of hp that some stuff changes. and I didn't think this nerf was needed.BUT, I think the "nerf" IS needed because of the bug fix they made with neural correctly using the units upgrades now. The most notable changes are actually in ZvZ...
Mutas from 4 to 5.
Zerglings from 1 to 2.
Banelings from 1 to 2.
Infestors from 2 to 3.
It does affect fungal on marines with medivacs a lot though, but that's arguably the only usage of the infestor that is really overpowered (but makes up for the idiocy that is the baneling).
So, yeah, people like to whine, mostly when the counter to infestors also own everything else zerg can field, and they miss the fact that a buff to ultralisks is also a buff to infestor play, for obvious reasons, so blizzard can't consider them that overpowered.
On another note, I do hope something ends up fixing 1-1-1... That's a tough one.
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