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On July 13 2011 22:51 R0YAL wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 22:44 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 20:37 iMp.will. wrote:
Like automining aint enough. Lets ruin the game even more. I've never really understood this mentality. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not a timing/rhythm game. Maybe Dance Dance Revolution would be more your style. It's not only a strategy game, its an esport you need mechanics too. The more elements the more room there is to separate and distinguish yourself from others. If you want a game that is only strategy then go play Starcraft the board game.
Mechanics like splitting are good, because that is part of strategy.
Mechanics like having to send every worker to mine even though it is obvious that you want all new workers mining instead of sitting idly is just repetitive rhythmic clicking that detracts from any strategy aspects. If someone with a better strategy loses because he doesn't click a worker and send it to mine every x seconds then the game is a shitty excuse for a strategy game.
The people begging for interface impediments are probably not good strategists at all and need artificial barriers to keep people who are smarter than them from beating them, simply because they have poured more hours into practicing their repetitive and rhythmic clicking.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who dislikes difficulty which is based upon struggling with the game's interface, even if I'm part of the minority.
I don't know why this game needs artificially created difficulty based upon its interface, and I didn't understand why BW needed it either--there is enough depth in unit control and decisionmaking in both games that it would be almost impossible to reach their skill ceilings if 100% of your economy was automated (put down a base and it automatically harvests everything for you, for instance).
But, I come from a Total Annihilation background, so there you go.
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This is so dumb. Why do people wanna dumb things down even more? I agree with meRz, there is ingame clock, automining,mbs, no max unit selection and you even have a message telling you when you can spawn larvae, mules and chronoboost again (!!!). It's like the players that aint that good wanna cut corners just because they can't stand that some players are dedicated to Starcraft and kows alot about all kinds of stuff.
Imagine if Blizzard allowed modding, all kinds of noob mods would be out and it would be horrible. Everyone who plays HoN knows what im talking about.
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On July 13 2011 22:57 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 22:44 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 20:37 iMp.will. wrote:
Like automining aint enough. Lets ruin the game even more. I've never really understood this mentality. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not a timing/rhythm game. Maybe Dance Dance Revolution would be more your style. It's not a strategy game. It's a REAL TIME strategy game, things as speed, timing, and what not SHOULD matter. If you want pure strategy you have games such as chess which is turn based. I agree with the nay-sayers, this is just one more way to dumb the game down. Little things like this that demand a little, but not great, effort to keep track off is one of those things that adds to the skill ceiling. We already have an in-game watch, automining, mbs etc. If things like these keeps getting added into the game, in the end we'll basically have a pure strategy game and none of the real time elements in it anymore.
Real time strategy just means you have to think and react to your opponent in real time. It is not a reference to repetitive clicking.
Sending a worker to mine every time it comes out is not a reaction to your opponent. It is not real time strategy, it's rhythm and timing (the same genre as dance dance revolution).
If those sort of mechanics improve the game, why not make it so all units forget their orders after 30 seconds and need to have their command given to them again? That increases the repetitive well timed clicking needed and would give more weight to "mechanics" as you call them. By your logic apparently that would make the game better.
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On the topic of adding things to dumb down the game and clutter the screen.
I've always wished we could have a unit production tab like in replays just so i can see if i really built an overlord or not. Do it right now Blizzard or I'll become an angry TL poster.
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On July 13 2011 23:05 Gosi wrote:
This is so dumb. Why do people wanna dumb things down even more? I agree with meRz, there is ingame clock, automining,mbs, no max unit selection and you even have a message telling you when you can spawn larvae, mules and chronoboost again (!!!). It's like the players that aint that good wanna cut corners just because they can't stand that some players are dedicated to Starcraft and kows alot about all kinds of stuff.
Imagine if Blizzard allowed modding, all kinds of noob mods would be out and it would be horrible. Everyone who plays HoN knows what im talking about.
I would call interface impediments like no auto mining and no multiple building selection "dumbing the game down", because it takes away aspects based on intelligence (strategy) and gives weight to practiced repetition.
I personally prefer starcraft be somewhat like a real time chess, rather than a glorified Guitar Hero or DDR.
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A lot of the reactions I've seen here mirror the initial feelings a lot of people had about the in-game timer, and I feel like the issues are fairly similar. At the higher levels it would make no difference, and at the lower levels it could help players improve their game faster. While it may be a little handholdy, I don't see what the problem would be with giving the player information about it own units.
For everyone insisting that it would lower the skill cap: removing the food count from the top right would have an opposite effect as displaying the worker count, but it is good for the game because it helps players refine their builds and leads to slicker, more advanced strategies more quickly.
EDIT: Rhetorical questions are dumb
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On July 13 2011 23:11 Gurblechev wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:05 Gosi wrote:
This is so dumb. Why do people wanna dumb things down even more? I agree with meRz, there is ingame clock, automining,mbs, no max unit selection and you even have a message telling you when you can spawn larvae, mules and chronoboost again (!!!). It's like the players that aint that good wanna cut corners just because they can't stand that some players are dedicated to Starcraft and kows alot about all kinds of stuff.
Imagine if Blizzard allowed modding, all kinds of noob mods would be out and it would be horrible. Everyone who plays HoN knows what im talking about. I would call interface impediments like no auto mining and no multiple building selection "dumbing the game down", because it takes away aspects based on intelligence (strategy) and gives weight to practiced repetition. I personally prefer starcraft be somewhat like a real time chess, rather than a glorified Guitar Hero or DDR.
Let me guess, you don't have that good mechanics do you? It's like you're mad of losing because some people plays alot and just runs over you ingame with their superior mechanics and speed. Starcraft is not the game for you if you can't stand that it's not just about strategy.
And btw, all the "X takes away aspects based on intelligence (strategy) from the game!!" I don't buy. It's not like sending your workers to mine or boxing your mineral lines to check unit count takes away strategy from the game, lol.
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Yeah, I would also like this but this is just another measure to make the game easier and all of these should not be in the game.
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On July 13 2011 23:16 Gosi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:11 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 23:05 Gosi wrote:
This is so dumb. Why do people wanna dumb things down even more? I agree with meRz, there is ingame clock, automining,mbs, no max unit selection and you even have a message telling you when you can spawn larvae, mules and chronoboost again (!!!). It's like the players that aint that good wanna cut corners just because they can't stand that some players are dedicated to Starcraft and kows alot about all kinds of stuff.
Imagine if Blizzard allowed modding, all kinds of noob mods would be out and it would be horrible. Everyone who plays HoN knows what im talking about. I would call interface impediments like no auto mining and no multiple building selection "dumbing the game down", because it takes away aspects based on intelligence (strategy) and gives weight to practiced repetition. I personally prefer starcraft be somewhat like a real time chess, rather than a glorified Guitar Hero or DDR. Let me guess, you don't have that good mechanics do you? It's like you're mad of losing because some people plays alot and just runs over you ingame with their superior mechanics and speed. Starcraft is not the game for you if you can't stand that it's not just about strategy.
Actually my biggest weakness is I suck at strategy. I beat all my friends based on mechanics alone regardless of which strategy I choose.
I just prefer strategy games to rhythm and timing games. Everyone is entitled to their preference of course, but since Starcraft claims to be a real time strategy game I feel it should focus on real time strategy aspects not rhythm and timing.
To each his own.
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So if Broodwar didnt have it, sc2 shouldnt have it? What is the problem of making the UI more efficient? Sc2 pros litter their games with errors, its not like anyone here is near skillcap, so dont talk about making it easy.
You armchair-admins/pros should really open your eyes to improvement instead of repeating the 10 year old arguments just to make you feel old-school and good.
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On July 13 2011 23:05 Gurblechev wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 22:57 meRz wrote:On July 13 2011 22:44 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 20:37 iMp.will. wrote:
Like automining aint enough. Lets ruin the game even more. I've never really understood this mentality. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not a timing/rhythm game. Maybe Dance Dance Revolution would be more your style. It's not a strategy game. It's a REAL TIME strategy game, things as speed, timing, and what not SHOULD matter. If you want pure strategy you have games such as chess which is turn based. I agree with the nay-sayers, this is just one more way to dumb the game down. Little things like this that demand a little, but not great, effort to keep track off is one of those things that adds to the skill ceiling. We already have an in-game watch, automining, mbs etc. If things like these keeps getting added into the game, in the end we'll basically have a pure strategy game and none of the real time elements in it anymore. Real time strategy just means you have to think and react to your opponent in real time. It is not a reference to repetitive clicking. Sending a worker to mine every time it comes out is not a reaction to your opponent. It is not real time strategy, it's rhythm and timing (the same genre as dance dance revolution). If those sort of mechanics improve the game, why not make it so all units forget their orders after 30 seconds and need to have their command given to them again? That increases the repetitive well timed clicking needed and would give more weight to "mechanics" as you call them. By your logic apparently that would make the game better.
I'm not talking about "repetitive clicking". While things like these may seem like unecessary repetitve stuff they are all things you can figure out by just _thinking_ a little and have a sense of what's going on. Removing all these things makes the game AI controlled and suited for people who wants to sit with one hand on their mouse, the other on their chin going "Hmm......" while they're planning their next mastermind move. RTS has always been tempobased with a lot of speed involved, requiring decisionmaking and strategy while doing all the other things, that's what makes RTS great, and also adds to the skill ceiling. Removing these things just makes the game "easier".
The amount of triggers and timings you had built into your head in BW was sick for example. You didn't have a clock to watch, you had things such as "if I FE, I know that if I put my gas down on 24, it's time to transfer my workers to my CC when the gas is 3/4th done, that way my SCVs arrive just in time for the CC to complete". Things like these were figured out and added an extra element to the game. By adding in all these things you remove those, that's what I mean, not just repetitively sending your workers to mine every round.
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I absolutely dont support this idea. Its like feeding easy information to the players. Come on the whole point of the game is worker management and battle strats.. I even hated the geyser change where it now shows how many workers are extracting gas.
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On July 13 2011 23:19 meRz wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:05 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 22:57 meRz wrote:On July 13 2011 22:44 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 20:37 iMp.will. wrote:
Like automining aint enough. Lets ruin the game even more. I've never really understood this mentality. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not a timing/rhythm game. Maybe Dance Dance Revolution would be more your style. It's not a strategy game. It's a REAL TIME strategy game, things as speed, timing, and what not SHOULD matter. If you want pure strategy you have games such as chess which is turn based. I agree with the nay-sayers, this is just one more way to dumb the game down. Little things like this that demand a little, but not great, effort to keep track off is one of those things that adds to the skill ceiling. We already have an in-game watch, automining, mbs etc. If things like these keeps getting added into the game, in the end we'll basically have a pure strategy game and none of the real time elements in it anymore. Real time strategy just means you have to think and react to your opponent in real time. It is not a reference to repetitive clicking. Sending a worker to mine every time it comes out is not a reaction to your opponent. It is not real time strategy, it's rhythm and timing (the same genre as dance dance revolution). If those sort of mechanics improve the game, why not make it so all units forget their orders after 30 seconds and need to have their command given to them again? That increases the repetitive well timed clicking needed and would give more weight to "mechanics" as you call them. By your logic apparently that would make the game better. I'm not talking about "repetitive clicking". While things like these may seem like unecessary repetitve stuff they are all things you can figure out by just _thinking_ a little and have a sense of what's going on. Removing all these things makes the game AI controlled and suited for people who wants to sit with one hand on their mouse, the other on their chin going "Hmm......" while they're planning their next mastermind move. RTS has always been tempobased with a lot of speed involved, requiring decisionmaking and strategy while doing all the other things, that's what makes RTS great, and also adds to the skill ceiling. Removing these things just makes the game "easier". The amount of triggers and timings you had built into your head in BW was sick for example. You didn't have a clock to watch, you had things such as "if I FE, I know that if I put my gas down on 24, it's time to transfer my workers to my CC when the gas is 3/4th done, that way my SCVs arrive just in time for the CC to complete". Things like these were figured out and added an extra element to the game. By adding in all these things you remove those, that's what I mean, not just repetitively sending your workers to mine every round.
Sending your workers to mine isn't decision making.
"Do I still want my workers to mine? Yes. Do I still want them to mine? Yes. Do I still want them to mine? Hmmmm.... yes."
It's just completely mindless repetitive clicking. It benefits people who aren't very bright but have a lot of free time to practice repetition. I call that "dumbing the game down". It rewards stupid people with free time and punishes intelligent people who don't want to waste 10hrs a day practicing repetitive tasks that any first day newbie knows they need to do.
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Right,let's take out the skill in the game...but only step by step. -.-
NO to worker count!
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On July 13 2011 23:23 Gurblechev wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 23:19 meRz wrote:On July 13 2011 23:05 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 22:57 meRz wrote:On July 13 2011 22:44 Gurblechev wrote:On July 13 2011 20:37 iMp.will. wrote:
Like automining aint enough. Lets ruin the game even more. I've never really understood this mentality. It's supposed to be a strategy game, not a timing/rhythm game. Maybe Dance Dance Revolution would be more your style. It's not a strategy game. It's a REAL TIME strategy game, things as speed, timing, and what not SHOULD matter. If you want pure strategy you have games such as chess which is turn based. I agree with the nay-sayers, this is just one more way to dumb the game down. Little things like this that demand a little, but not great, effort to keep track off is one of those things that adds to the skill ceiling. We already have an in-game watch, automining, mbs etc. If things like these keeps getting added into the game, in the end we'll basically have a pure strategy game and none of the real time elements in it anymore. Real time strategy just means you have to think and react to your opponent in real time. It is not a reference to repetitive clicking. Sending a worker to mine every time it comes out is not a reaction to your opponent. It is not real time strategy, it's rhythm and timing (the same genre as dance dance revolution). If those sort of mechanics improve the game, why not make it so all units forget their orders after 30 seconds and need to have their command given to them again? That increases the repetitive well timed clicking needed and would give more weight to "mechanics" as you call them. By your logic apparently that would make the game better. I'm not talking about "repetitive clicking". While things like these may seem like unecessary repetitve stuff they are all things you can figure out by just _thinking_ a little and have a sense of what's going on. Removing all these things makes the game AI controlled and suited for people who wants to sit with one hand on their mouse, the other on their chin going "Hmm......" while they're planning their next mastermind move. RTS has always been tempobased with a lot of speed involved, requiring decisionmaking and strategy while doing all the other things, that's what makes RTS great, and also adds to the skill ceiling. Removing these things just makes the game "easier". The amount of triggers and timings you had built into your head in BW was sick for example. You didn't have a clock to watch, you had things such as "if I FE, I know that if I put my gas down on 24, it's time to transfer my workers to my CC when the gas is 3/4th done, that way my SCVs arrive just in time for the CC to complete". Things like these were figured out and added an extra element to the game. By adding in all these things you remove those, that's what I mean, not just repetitively sending your workers to mine every round. Sending your workers to mine isn't decision making. "Do I still want my workers to mine? Yes. Do I still want them to mine? Yes. Do I still want them to mine? Hmmmm.... yes." It's just completely mindless repetitive clicking. It benefits people who aren't very bright but have a lot of free time to practice repetition. I call that "dumbing the game down". It rewards stupid people with free time and punishes intelligent people who don't want to waste 10hrs a day practicing repetitive tasks that any first day newbie knows they need to do.
... You're not reading what I'm saying. My argument has never been "omg automining is bad we should be required to send our workers to mine!" Why do you keep bringing that one up?
We already have tools that reduce the repetitive clicking. Things like keeping your worker count, knowing timings and what not is not repetitive, it's something you develop by having good game sense and overall great experience of the game, things you need great amount of practice to learn.
And also, I get what you're trying to do. It's funny how you argue that repetitive things means that "all the stupid people" can excell over "smart" people. If a smart guy "doesn't want to waste 10hrs a dayt practicing" then he has no business in competitive play. An e-sport game should require immense dedication if you want to excell, it shouldn't be a game where you are either good or bad by default, it should be a game that rewards work and effort.
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On July 13 2011 23:19 exog wrote:
So if Broodwar didnt have it, sc2 shouldnt have it? What is the problem of making the UI more efficient? Sc2 pros litter their games with errors, its not like anyone here is near skillcap, so dont talk about making it easy.
You armchair-admins/pros should really open your eyes to improvement instead of repeating the 10 year old arguments just to make you feel old-school and good.
How is it an improvement? It doesn't make the game better in any way, it actually takes away because there is less room for error.
And the game is out for just a year, it would be a terrible game if people already mastered it....
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I'm a SC2 spectator, so for me personally anything that cheapens or lessens the skill factor of the players i watch by giving them free information just makes the game dull and more predictable.
I don't think the game needs to be any easier than what it is already. I think Blizzard realizes this.
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On July 13 2011 21:52 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2011 21:45 ETisME wrote:
Wow, everyone is so heavily against this idea...(I suppose most are broodwar players)
Personally I won't mind it at all, although I don't need it.
I mean the pro's are not going to play better/worse with it, it's gonna be beneficial for the new comers.
Nothing wrong with helping the new comers while not hurting the game balance. Getting the ideal worker count isn't necessarily going to help the "less experienced" player suddenly become a top progamer or something :/
It's not like a super crazy macro-aid tool like auto injection or auto worker production, it's only a worker count for those who want it. Someone already pointed out that the game does it for you too. If you just put all your workers in a control group it will tell how many units are in the group by the hot-key bar I believe.
well, I believe that by making it easier to access (plus the fact that you don't have to go to each base and box them all, also risking missing some which are mining gas), the lower can get a hang of the game even faster and more people would be able to get on to the strategy side of the game (Where the fun begins)
Those who are upset about these changes really confuses me, are they worried that they are going to get beaten by those who now can have better macro (or whatever it helped them)
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Let's be honest. If Broodwar had auto-mining workers, no one in the entire world would say that it's making the game too easy. The only people who want automine removed are the people who can't get over that this is a different game.
If Broodwar had automine and Blizzard took it out, you'd all just be complaining about them taking it out. No one at all would say, " WOW GREAT ADDITION BLIZZARD!! NOW WE HAVE TO TELL OUR WORKERS TO MINE! YEAH, AWESOME PATCH!!!!!!"
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EPT
