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On June 21 2011 10:42 sc4k wrote:
I think another aspect of this is that Argentina was the one who got hostile. They were the aggressors and the British as a people can't be blamed for having some resentment for that. It probably makes us more determined to hold on to the islands and rebuke Argentina than ever before.
Argentina was never hostile. As I explained in my post, the war was declared for benefits of both sides. Prime Minister Thatcher could have easily stopped it but as I detailed before, both wanted press media focused on a war instead of local issues such as stomping civil rights (Argentina's dictatorship) or failed privatization plan (England).
In every legal aspect (international treaties and such) the Falklands belong to Argentina. Ethically, they belong to the original owners (Aborigines). Sadly, the islands just belong to England because of military/economical/political strength ever since the modern era.
Also, the Falklands are quite a shithole at this moment. Going there is like travelling back in time (no road network, minefields everywhere, desolated towns).
Argentina doesn't really give a fuck about the islands and that's why never the issue never gets into dirty situations. The claim that UK has over the islands is completely incomprehensible for Argentine people. The resources are lackluster, the population is really low, and strategically it serves no purpose (it used to be a huge strategical point back in the imperialism but not anymore).
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Ethically it belongs to the people who've been living there for the last 200 years, why is that so hard to accept?
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On June 18 2011 03:52 Ganjamaster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2011 03:46 ElPeque.fogata wrote:On June 18 2011 03:22 Ganjamaster wrote:On June 18 2011 03:13 ElPeque.fogata wrote:On June 18 2011 01:31 IntoTheWow wrote:On June 17 2011 20:38 Deleuze wrote:
They have run out or coins at the moment as there poor economy doesn't permit them to make any
more. Haha, sorry but this is so wrong it's funny. I don't know where you read this. The coin thing has nothing to do with our economy but with our bus system :p (Argentina was one of the few countries that kept on growing in the middle of the economic crisis and holds on to some big reserves right now). Oh! But do we know our beloved neighbors! - You manipulate your inflation measurements to suit whatever you want. - You can't even pay your foreign debt. We now a days hear about Greece may have to default Well, Argentina has been in default for quite a while now... - Your bonds are worth nothing because no one trusts you will ever pay. - You stole your coutrymen's retirement funds to try to even your spending deficit. Central bank reserves by themselves mean nothing. You can't touch them without spiraling either inflation or the exchange rate out of the scale, shooting yourself in the foot. You can cheat on your accounting for a while, but it will blow up in your faces as it always did and as it is about to happen in Spain, Greece, et al. And you achieve all that even though in terms of natural resources you should be within the top 5 richest countries in the world. Yet always so cocky i'm not sure if it is painful or funny. No wonder the rest of the south american countries smile to each others in irony when the spoiled single child calls for special attention. Economic crisis? What crisis? Your government congratulates itself on having survived when all the rest plummeted. Newsflash!!! All your neighbors did and are doing much much better. Mostly not because of doing things right (in many cases just the opposite) but because of not doing them as wrong as you did/are doing. And the reason we are doing pretty good right now is that our economies depend on commodities. And in times of crisis, people stop buying appartments, then cars, then computers, then ipods......... but they'll keep on buying food. So this post-modern banana republic pride is ridiculous. Same story during the world wars. Uruguay was recalled by many as "the Switzerland of America" during those times. My ancestors believed the phrase literally and came here from europe to find a better life and they certainly did. Then the first world stopped buying us dry canned meat at the price of gold. We then didn't want to wake up to reallity and kept the spending without getting any better at doing anything (we are so great!). We went bankrupt, social living standards plummeted. Social unrest. And the conditions were met for whatever right or left wing totalitarian to take control. We all had our own flavor of dictator. But even our dictators facepalmed when you invaded the Malvinas. We, Uruguayans have almost the same ethnicity as Argentinians (a little more spanish and less italian blood), and have very similar flavor of spanish, so we are usually mistaken for Argentinians. As tourists, we learn to be outspoken about our nationality to avoid confusion and so we are treated with less distrust. You are so quick to point out our flaws and yet your economy depends a great deal on us. Many of the things you consume are made by us, you watch our media and you benefit from out tourism. Your whole economy is based on the black, illegal money of argentines deposited in your unscrupulous banks and deregulated financial system, so if I were you I would shut up and pour yourself another mate because if we took all that money out you would have to swim across the river to clean toilets. @IntoTheWow So economic/social policies (trade restrictions, social programmes) are not relevant policies to be discussed? We can continue this elsehwere, I agree we have derailed too much. Well... Nope. That is what your government tells you. Argentinians account for 30% of the money in Uruguayan banks. It would only hurt us if they took it all away in one sweep. That is exactly what happened in 2002 when we had to refinance our debt and you defaulted. And the main reason Argentinians put their money in here is because Argentina has a long history of manipulating their economy, switching rules on the fly, expropiating, and just being too corrupt. Which is just bad for business. And you know what? We are doing particularily good right now because your government sucks so much that your best farmers are MOVING to our lands because even though your land is much more fertile, they make more money in our shitty lands and much worse exchange rate, boosting our exports. Actually... Why don't you pay us a visit and see how much you can buy here with Argentinian pesos. You might be surprised. (I go to buenos aires once in a while to buy cheap stuff  ). In any case. Both Argentina and Brazil have always fucked with us. Our country is very small, we have no scale productivity, no oil, no gas (though now it seems there is some study that says we might), and Brazil and Argentina are both huge both in human and natural resources, and both have very high trade restrictions for our products. And they even prohibit us from doing commerce treaties with other countries else we would be more severely punished with tariffs, etc. Long story short. We are the small bullyed kid in the neighbourhood. Yet here we are. And there you are. HAhaha "our best farmers". It is the LAND which makes our products good, not the farmers. If it were because of technical proficiency we would have been overtaken by EU/USA long ago in terms of farming. You are bullied because Uruguayans tend to act butthurt (like you) in every thread were Argentina is discussed. The real deal is nobody cares about Uruguay, live with it. Yeah, here I am, I go once a year to Uruguay to fornicate with your women and drink your wine, and thats about it. User was warned for this post
And thats why we friggin mock you argentinians to the guts
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As long as the people of these Islands want to stay british, there's no point discussing it. From my point of view, engaging french forces to help the UK on this makes more sense that most of the conflict we are in presently.
And we have the same problem with the claim of Mayotte by the Comorres. Basically one of the islands of this archipel decided to stay french when we offered the independance, and now the independant country is claiming that island while it's inhabitants want to stay french...
To me that's just governments trying to use nationalism to manipulate their people.
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On June 21 2011 16:28 goFLiP wrote:
...
In every legal aspect (international treaties and such) the Falklands belong to Argentina. Ethically, they belong to the original owners (Aborigines).
The islands were uninhabited when the europeans arrived ...
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Argentina was never hostile. .
Then that was the friendliest invasion ever.
With lots of cuddly bullets.
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How many "Argentinians" live on the islands? None (or roughly that number)
The answer is simple: Its the Falklands and the Argentinians are just idiots who probably try to deviate their home population from problems inside the country by creating a "problem outside". It is one of the oldest tricks in the book of tactics for politicians. "If you have trouble at home, create an outrage about something outside your country which causes the country to unite behind you." Usually these things are followed by a war ...
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Funny that the british tryed to do exacly the same here in Brazil, the difference is we got out ships and kicked their asses outa there, the Argentinians couldnt, I dont disagree that its argentinian territory, but its pretty obvious that the English wont really concede specially after that dictatorship attacked them out of nowhere.
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What the fuck? All I see here is that Argentina is trying to nullify the Falklanders' right to self-determination and therefore are wrong. That's all there is to the story, I can't believe people are even arguing about it.
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On June 21 2011 18:53 D10 wrote:
Funny that the british tryed to do exacly the same here in Brazil,
Did we? (Not arguing, actually curious)
One of the exciting things about being British is travelling the world and discovering all the nasty things your ancestors got up to!
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On June 21 2011 19:08 Rossweazel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:53 D10 wrote:
Funny that the british tryed to do exacly the same here in Brazil, Did we? (Not arguing, actually curious) One of the exciting things about being British is travelling the world and discovering all the nasty things your ancestors got up to!
No we didnt ever fight a war with Brazil. If we had though, they wouldnt have "kicked our asses" either. I know we did alot of wrongs back in the day (mainly 19th century) but not in South America. I dont know where this hostility comes from. India, China and South Africa have plenty of reason to complain, Argentina and Brazil have none. As for goflips comments above, that entire post is drivel.
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On June 21 2011 16:28 goFLiP wrote:
Also, the Falklands are quite a shithole at this moment. Going there is like travelling back in time (no road network, minefields everywhere, desolated towns).
lol they do have a road network
also they removed the minefields around port stanley (the only place the argintinians could actually hold long enough to mine) and no there are no desolate towns.
The reason i know this was because my mate got stationed at mount plesant and he told me all about the islands
tbh i dont think you've ever been to islands to know that and you probably just listen to your national media.
Finally Falklands has large oil supplies so it does actually hold huge commercial value but due to the fact that the argy's invaded and failed makes it more of a point that it belongs to the british
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Sanctimonius,
There is something very important. Great Britain has said so many times that Argentina only wants to take the Falklands and expel it´s population that sometimes it´s difficult for the British people really understand what Argentina is really saying.
We don’t ask Great Britain to give us Tha Falklands/Malvinas. We call for a diplomatic solution that includes our rights. This can take many forms, from leasing, shared sovereignty, mutual cooperation; there are so many possible solutions.
Argentina doesn´t deny the presence of Britain for many years (also where there is no law that ratifies this gives any legal title, plus that the Falklands are considered as a colony by the United Nations listed as a territory to be decolonized (resolution 2065)).
But please, please forget all the legal mess, because it´s very distracting and many people in forums tend to put what they wish law says and not what the law actually says.
Argentina claims to Britain to comply with the UN resolution, and to find together a definitive solution to the issue. That is what Argentina ratified every and every year.
Of course the Islanders get rights!!!. I'm not dismissing the claim of the Islanders; I'm saying they exaggerate for economical reasons.
Once again, Argentina claims: A solution to the issue that takes into account the rights of all parts. Isn't an Argentine request as only condition the Britain withdraws from the islands or expel of the British population.
Everyone in Argentina knows that the British people have lived there for a long time. Although they´re extremely anti-Argentines. We have no problem with them, so for the majority of us they can live there if they want it and be British if they want it. This is why we put it explicitly in our National Constitution.
I will clarify a point that is important:
- Self-determination principles are not applicable since the current inhabitants are not aboriginal and were brought to replace the Argentine population.
It's not necessary what I think, is what the Argentine claim says.
It's also important to clarify that the principle of self-determination of peoples could only be applied if the population was native to the islands and not a population introduced to replace other population with settlers (like in 1833).
Britain can't argue islanders are a native population, it's in the history. Before 1833, Argentine people lives there and was expelled by force. By the way, both at that time (Argentines and British) was settlers so neither Argentines nor British can argue they are native of the islands.
The point on this is: the islanders have the right to claim for the principle of self-determination if they want to be independent. If they claim to be Falklanders. They can't self-determine they are British. Great Britain is who determines that.
Can I determine that I'm British too? Can people in Manchester determine that they´re Argentines and Manchester is part of Argentina? No, they can't.
They can claim the principle of self-determination if they want to be independent of Britain.
People in Buenos Aires can claim the principle of self-determination if they want independence from Argentina.
Or Scottish colony on Patagonia can claim their village as part of Scotland? They live from long time ago there! Fuck, beware of Chinatowns!!!!
It is easy to see that you don't understand nothing about the the principle of self-determination or when apply, but they sound very touching, right?.
The other is a manipulation of the principle of self-determination. A political shortcut, a bluff!!!
I will clarify the economic issue:
Britain Forces aren't defending anything. Argentina has no intention to attack the islands.
This isn't something we just said. Argentina has not been rearm since 1982 and explicitly reaffirmed at the UN that we abandon any attempt to recover the islands by force.
The British defense budget of the islands is just a distraction and due to Britain domestic politics reasons. Argentina is not the reason.
I will highlight the most important Argentine point of view and our claim:
The claim is based on historical background, legal and geographic that gives Argentina the right to claim the islands. But, Argentina’s claim is without ignoring the current situation of the islands.
So the claim is based on his background but focuses on the ratification of the UN Resolution 2065. Restart negotiations and find a definitive solution for all parts through diplomatic channels.
There are many possible solutions.
Anything else is what the British government says that Argentina is saying and not what the Argentina is saying. See my point?
Svetz: Because it´s what law says. If Britain chooses to do things outside the international laws, they can just admit it and stop accusing Argentina. They do it because they can do it! And that’s all! You cannot expect to break the law and say that is a legal act.
They do that in 1910/20, 60s, 70s, also in 1982. Try Falklands on the guardian site and you have a lot of info in English. Just a note: Until 1983 Great Britain denied British citizenship to the islanders.
DeepElemBlues: I think you're confusing things. Self-determination applies if you want independence.
Please try to not overlook the fact that Argentina doesn’t necessarily want to stay with the islands unilaterally. Since 1960 we have been saying that. Repeatedly (Even when the Kelpers weren't British).
Please! Try to hear what we have to say.
sc4k: You say that because you're Brit. How would you feel if you has been stolen?
It's like Gibraltar, just to f*** with Spain.
Know What?
This happens to us to respect the law for 149 years and claim. You are interested in protecting the supposed rights of 2,500 people who aren’t threatened by anyone and you don’t care until 1983, but you give a damn about the rights of 40,000,000 Argentines.
Whatever we do, they will be always an excuse. You don’t care even if 85% of UN member countries say the Falklands belong to Argentina. You talk about rights, self-determination, but on the other side, you don’t respect a simple UN resolution even when you’re permanent member of the Security Council.
You broke the law before and you´re broking the law now. What happens is you don’t care.
You really give a s*** about what the Argentines have to say, whether true or not!
Ask yourself amongst yourselves. No matter what we have to say.
Sorry for my bad mood at the end. And sorry for my bad grammar too.
Bye Pals!
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On June 17 2011 11:09 Carras wrote:
after defeating spain , there was an argentian mission that populated the islands ,in 1833 british invaded, and the argentinians there left becouse they were in no situation to hold the islands against a battle ship.
the islands are clos to argentina (480km , maybe its 300 miles) wich is close enough by international law standars, it is also geographically in continuity with the argentinian continental platform (wich is also imporrtant by international law) ,
Holding sth in an ilegal way for 200 years doesnt make it yours.
So what they find oil there and suddenly your people are all fired up and want it again for nationalistic reasons? Seems kinda short sighted to me.
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On June 21 2011 21:01 Gfox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 11:09 Carras wrote:
after defeating spain , there was an argentian mission that populated the islands ,in 1833 british invaded, and the argentinians there left becouse they were in no situation to hold the islands against a battle ship.
the islands are clos to argentina (480km , maybe its 300 miles) wich is close enough by international law standars, it is also geographically in continuity with the argentinian continental platform (wich is also imporrtant by international law) ,
Holding sth in an ilegal way for 200 years doesnt make it yours. So what they find oil there and suddenly your people are all fired up and want it again for nationalistic reasons? Seems kinda short sighted to me.
Oil is a bluff!!! Great Britain produces nothing and need a bluff to distract her people and make markets grow!!! Great Britain is sinking, everyone sees it! Britain has already begun the process of giving the Falklands.
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That is just ignorant. When we settled on the Islands, no Argentinian had ever set foot on it. Your country didnt even exist. The original settlers left however for security reasons but they left a plaque stating they would return and that this land was British. After this an Argentinian ship wrecked on the Islands and they settled because they tried and failed to leave. However, as previously promised, Britain returned in 1833 and told those people to leave. Since then it has remained solely British, that is almost 200 years. As for your geographical claims, I think you will find it exceeds the distance of such claims so that point is moot. So Legally and Geographically you dont have any claim. In fact the only reason you want it is for economical reasons, something we have at the very bottom of the list of why we defend it. You then have the audacity to claim WE broke the law in the war. You invaded sovereign British soil, that is an act of war and you were lucky we didnt declare war. Granted we sunk your battle ship (less than 2 miles) outside the self-imposed exclusion zone but if you play with fire you will get burned. It was needed to protect our carriers. The reason you dont want to take it by force now is not some ethical stance, it is fear. The consequences of such an action would cripple your country. Now please, just stop, if you really had such a claim through international law you would actually take it up in the international courts instead of just making primary school comments in the media.
At the end of the day, even if we were in the wrong back in 1833 (we wasnt) it wouldnt even matter as they were different times operating under different ethics codes. 200 years ago the world was very different, there is no going back.
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On June 21 2011 20:45 chgh wrote:
Once again, Argentina claims: A solution to the issue that takes into account the rights of all parts. Isn't an Argentine request as only condition the Britain withdraws from the islands or expel of the British population.
Everyone in Argentina knows that the British people have lived there for a long time. Although they´re extremely anti-Argentines. We have no problem with them, so for the majority of us they can live there if they want it and be British if they want it. This is why we put it explicitly in our National Constitution.
So what exactly are "Argentinas rights" in this? The only question is if the island wants to become its own state or not. Since the British have lived there so long the land hasnt any connection whatsoever to Argentina. It is as if Chile or New Zealand or Malaysia were telling the tiny islands in the pacific ocean "You are close to us, we are bigger than you and on the continent, thus allyourlandarebelongtous." It doesnt work that way and Argentina has zero claims to the Falklands.
If you are soo righteous about these islands go and talk to the UN. Anything else is just propaganda to get yourself all riled up for another war.
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On June 21 2011 21:17 Aristodemus wrote:
That is just ignorant. When we settled on the Islands, no Argentinian had ever set foot on it. Your country didnt even exist. The original settlers left however for security reasons but they left a plaque stating they would return and that this land was British. After this an Argentinian ship wrecked on the Islands and they settled because they tried and failed to leave. However, as previously promised, Britain returned in 1833 and told those people to leave. Since then it has remained solely British, that is almost 200 years. As for your geographical claims, I think you will find it exceeds the distance of such claims so that point is moot. So Legally and Geographically you dont have any claim. In fact the only reason you want it is for economical reasons, something we have at the very bottom of the list of why we defend it. You then have the audacity to claim WE broke the law in the war. You invaded sovereign British soil, that is an act of war and you were lucky we didnt declare war. Granted we sunk your battle ship (less than 2 miles) outside the self-imposed exclusion zone but if you play with fire you will get burned. It was needed to protect our carriers. The reason you dont want to take it by force now is not some ethical stance, it is fear. The consequences of such an action would cripple your country. Now please, just stop, if you really had such a claim through international law you would actually take it up in the international courts instead of just making primary school comments in the media.
At the end of the day, even if we were in the wrong back in 1833 (we wasnt) it wouldnt even matter as they were different times operating under different ethics codes. 200 years ago the world was very different, there is no going back.
Read the whole post! or Buy a book of the history of the Falklands at least!
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They way I see it the choice should be up to the inhabitance of who governs the country/island.
It seems unfair that an entire population would have to change Government all due to Argentina's "I want" attitude. What would they gain by becoming apart of Argentina?
A better economy?
A better way of living?
Better human rights? -
A passport that allow free or easy travel through out most of the world?
As far as law is concerned, while it may say one thing now. history shows the majority rules and laws are defined by what the people want rather than a polititian or presedente. Also I highly doubt the UN will get involved especially when Britain is one of 5 permanent members of its security council.
That's my thoughts anyway.
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EPT
