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I have an honest question which I hope either Blizzard or a very smart person can address, which leads in to a theory on a flaw of zerg attributes.
When I really thought about why the Command Center yields 10 control, it didn't make much sense to me. The command center differs from the Nexus, and the hatchery in a few key ways. A.) it can be repaired (And stack repaired at that) and B.) because it can lift off, it can be re-used after it is done mining the resources and flown over to let's say, the corner island on python would be a good example.
Am I saying that it shouldn't yield 10 control? Not necessarily, I'm just saying that the only reason that I can figure why the CC yields 10 control, or should I say, that terran starts out with 1 more control, is because the scv is not only sacrificed for a period of time... but perhaps mostly because the scv is a target when it is building. But it is a moving target and can be repaired by other scvs which is another consideration...
What I have come to realize by studying starcraft brood war is that it's structure and design tends to be heavily dictated by a pattern which can be described as "Two equal and One unequal values".
The starting control values of each race are a good example
Terran- 10 control
Protoss- 9 control
Zerg- 9 control
My question began with, "Isn't it possible that an alternative interpretation of the starting control figures could be...
Terran- 10 control
Protoss- 9 control
Zerg- 10 control ?"
Although zerg's drone is not a vulnerable target when it is building a structure, the drone is still permanently sacrificed, which I would imagine puts it on somewhat more of an equal level with terran... But zerg also have other factors like supply which occupies larvae which is permanently bound to the air(Overlord), and defense structures which are exclusive to air and ground attacks.
This is only one reason why I don't see why zerg doesn't start with 10 control like terran does.
If zerg started with 10 control, then this would mean that the hatchery would yield 2 control, and not 1. When terran expands, they get a natural 10 control from a CC, while protoss get a natural 9 control.
At this point I asked myself a question. "how many hatcheries can zerg have on two bases?" The answer to that question is 6, 3 per base. If the hatchery were to yield two control, then the 5 out of the 6 hatcheries (not counting the one you start with) would yield a total of 10 control which just comes naturally for having built 5 hatcheries.
My observation is, Isn't it strange that this 10 control would align with the 10 control that terran gets naturally when they merely make 1 command center? As a game goes on and terran/protoss expand, isn't this natural 10 and 9 control that they receive, while zerg only receive 1 per hatch, going to basically steadily pull away from zerg as taking the map with bases goes on?
My final reason why I suspect that the hatchery should yield 2 control is because of a zerg build order which doesn't get used at all because of the negative impact it has on zerg's economy. This build order, however, fits best with zerg's philosophy of play style, which is to put production ahead of aggression yet still be the aggressor. That build order is..
10 - Hatch (Off of gas trick)
Pool
Lord
This build order is never used, not in pro, not by any zerg who desires to win with a reasonable means, when honestly it should be considered zerg's standard build order. No build order is standard, I know. I 'm saying it should be considered the most standard build order. So what's holding it back from being used?
Two things, and two very minor things.
A.) The hatchery only yields 1 control. (when I believe it should yield 2)
B.) The hatchery holds a capacity of 3 larvae (when I believe it should hold 4)
With these changes, the Hatch, Pool, Lord build order would go from being out of the question, to being a viable build order, perhaps even considered to be more the standard b.o.
But what is the true standard b.o. as it currently stands? The true standard build order is
10 hatch (Off the 8th drone gas trick)
LORD
Pool
Scouting with a drone just before you make the spawning pool.
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg. It properly stops bunker and 2 gateway push, while still leaving economy open for the necessary growth to keep up with an expanding terran or protoss.
I'm not sure how many pros regard the 10 hatch, 9 lord, 9 pool (overpool) build order as the true standard b.o., but I'm sure that given time, this can be established as fact by the pro and overall starcraft community.
Thank you for listening to my opinion.
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I think these things are arbitrarily chosen for the most parts. For example, we may also ask the question of why we actually start with 4 workers and cc/nexus/hatch instead just a lone worker.
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I always thought it was because terran had to use an scv to build things, and thus would be "short" one mining worker...it makes a difference in the early game, I guess.
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Calgary25993 Posts
On March 10 2011 00:44 jellyfish wrote:
I always thought it was because terran had to use an scv to build things, and thus would be "short" one mining worker...it makes a difference in the early game, I guess.
That's precisely it. Case closed.
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This is totally arbitry. If you are trying to get at balance of the game, it's fine so whyn does it matter. If you play SC2 you might feel like everything has to be equal, but this adds to diversity which is good. I'm not exactly what you're trying to say? Are you saying the CC is imbalanced?
If you're trying to get at lore, well I don't know, there are many arguements one could make. But while were at it lets make a zergling cost 100 minerals, give them 160hp and let's slow their attack into 2 hits of 8... All I'm saying is the races need to be unique, and what we have now works; well. So why change it?
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On March 10 2011 00:44 jellyfish wrote:
I always thought it was because terran had to use an scv to build things, and thus would be "short" one mining worker...it makes a difference in the early game, I guess.
I guess that makes sense with the supply depots in particular since drones are not held in a position to make an overlord. Then again, the overlord sacrifices a larvae in the same way a drone is sacrificed to make a building. It just makes me wonder more, why the hatchery doesn't yield 2 control.
You know, even though the hatchery yields 2 control in starcraft 2, this was merely a change of scale as each race's base structure control gained +1.
The queen occupies 2 control, and with queens, zerg now make much less hatcheries which means less benefit of control because less hatcheries are made.
Another question is, "Do queens, costing 2 control each, really make up for the natural control lost by making less hatcheries?" as opposed to broodwar?
Do the queens make up for this with the spawn larvae mechanic? Is the production enough to make the additional overlords, and properly make enough economy/warrior?
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United Kingdom3685 Posts
On March 10 2011 00:34 AtlasMech wrote:
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg.
Would you care to provide us with this replay? And also your ICCup rank?
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^Atlas, I guess Hatch costs 300 and lets you spawn 3 units at the same time to compensate 'sacrificed' drones whenever we need to build.
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On March 10 2011 00:55 Sayle wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 00:34 AtlasMech wrote:
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg. Would you care to provide us with this replay? And also your ICCup rank?
Sure, I'm not saying I'm the best zerg in the world, heck, I don't even use hotkeys, but zerg has been my race for years and I've played well over 500,000 games.
This isn't the best rep either, I should be able to get great demonstration reps against T or P bunker or 2 gate rush, but this is decent for now.
http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41064
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I guess it is to balance the early game. If you look at the way how each race increases supply, Terrans need a SCV to stay with the supply depot until the Depot is complete; a probe needs 2 seconds to warp a Pylon(1 second if you use the hotkey); a drone does nothing. As for why CCs have 10 supply, I can't answer you.
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Calgary25993 Posts
On March 10 2011 01:10 AtlasMech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 00:55 Sayle wrote:On March 10 2011 00:34 AtlasMech wrote:
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg. Would you care to provide us with this replay? And also your ICCup rank? Sure, I'm not saying I'm the best zerg in the world, heck, I don't even use hotkeys, but zerg has been my race for years and I've played well over 500,000 games. This isn't the best rep either, I should be able to get great demonstration reps against T or P bunker or 2 gate rush, but this is decent for now. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41064
Can you explain why this is the standard build order? One bad replay doesn't really explain your logic.
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On March 10 2011 01:10 AtlasMech wrote:
heck, I don't even use hotkeys, but zerg has been my race for years and I've played well over 500,000 games.
You have got to be kidding me?
500 000 games = 5 000 000 minutes (at 10 minutes each but considering your post I assume all your games end early-ish)
5 000 000 minutes = 83 000 Hours
83 000 Hours = 3472 Days
3472 = About 10 years of non stop playing time.
And in your ten years of non stop playing you never learned to use hot keys?
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On March 10 2011 00:34 AtlasMech wrote:
With these changes, the Hatch, Pool, Lord build order would go from being out of the question, to being a viable build order, perhaps even considered to be more the standard b.o.
But what is the true standard b.o. as it currently stands? The true standard build order is
10 hatch (Off the 8th drone gas trick)
LORD
Pool
Scouting with a drone just before you make the spawning pool.
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg. It properly stops bunker and 2 gateway push, while still leaving economy open for the necessary growth to keep up with an expanding terran or protoss.
I'm not sure how many pros regard the 10 hatch, 9 lord, 9 pool (overpool) build order as the true standard b.o., but I'm sure that given time, this can be established as fact by the pro and overall starcraft community.
Thank you for listening to my opinion.
So you get the economic benefits of a 9 pool with the zergling timing of a 12 hatch?
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On March 10 2011 01:10 AtlasMech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 00:55 Sayle wrote:On March 10 2011 00:34 AtlasMech wrote:
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg. Would you care to provide us with this replay? And also your ICCup rank? Sure, I'm not saying I'm the best zerg in the world, heck, I don't even use hotkeys, but zerg has been my race for years and I've played well over 500,000 games. This isn't the best rep either, I should be able to get great demonstration reps against T or P bunker or 2 gate rush, but this is decent for now. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41064
Thats about 10 years provided one game takes 10 minutes (erring on cautious side) discounting waiting for players and all that, are you saying you spent almost all of the time from 1998 till today doing nothing but playing games?
edit beaten
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United States828 Posts
What, exactly, is the point of this thread?
1: We can't know why these differences exist, unless we find someone who was on the design team for BW and ask. I think SCV's being tied up building is a damn good guess, but we still can't know for sure.
2: It's not going to change. Blizzard doesn't patch BW anymore, and the last balance patch was years ago.
3: Even if it could change, why should it? Turns out, BW is a pretty spectacularly balanced game, and changing this would make a difference, even if it was possible.
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On March 10 2011 01:10 AtlasMech wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 00:55 Sayle wrote:On March 10 2011 00:34 AtlasMech wrote:
I have replay proof that this is truly the standard b.o. for zerg. Would you care to provide us with this replay? And also your ICCup rank? Sure, I'm not saying I'm the best zerg in the world, heck, I don't even use hotkeys, but zerg has been my race for years and I've played well over 500,000 games. This isn't the best rep either, I should be able to get great demonstration reps against T or P bunker or 2 gate rush, but this is decent for now. http://www.repdepot.net/replay.php?id=41064
I just calculated it, and playing 500,000 games at 10 minutes a game (a conservative estimate), would take you approximately 9 and a half years of NON STOP playing. And if you don't even use hotkeys, I wouldn't be surprised if you haven't even played 5000 games yet.
EDIT: omfg, got ninjaed
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10 supply on the cc probably does feel imbalanced if you open like that every game.
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Why does the marine shoot at a distance when zerglings and zealots are doomed to close combat?
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United States828 Posts
Wow, that just made my day.
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Because the drone is sacrificed and you can replace it. The SCV still takes food. Terrans would have 1 less miner early game - which matters alot.
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LOL, a low level player trying to theorycraft and talk balance of BW.
On March 10 2011 01:19 HopLight wrote:Show nested quote +On March 10 2011 01:10 AtlasMech wrote:
heck, I don't even use hotkeys, but zerg has been my race for years and I've played well over 500,000 games.
You have got to be kidding me? 500 000 games = 5 000 000 minutes (at 10 minutes each but considering your post I assume all your games end early-ish) 5 000 000 minutes = 83 000 Hours 83 000 Hours = 3472 Days 3472 = About 10 years of non stop playing time. And in your ten years of non stop playing you never learned to use hot keys?
LOL, shot right in the bulls-eye! 10 years playing........UMS mostly i presume?
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ROFL
"Ask bnet"
"wut?"
xD omg I'm laughing so hard
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Wait, are we really talking about balance in starcraft broodwar? And are we really blaming it on the command center having more supply? Really?
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Calgary25993 Posts
lol oh god stop the madness
im getting pretty tired of armchair game balance designers
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Calgary25993 Posts
Wait... who was that guy that said the source of all Brood War imbalance came from the CC being able to lift off? Because this really smells of that.
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EPT
